Do airlines care which school you go to?
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Under bar stool
PP
I am not against OAT if I had the chance again I would have gone there. I advise people, who ask me, that if they can afford it to go there. However I have worked at big COM schools and believe there is a too structured approach. Logging P1 in a twin while an instructor sits next to you means you always have a back up which you do not have with true P1. Many of my friends and colleagues who went to OATetc said that when they went into GA they were not comfortable with the different environment. These schools did not set up to provide GA pilots they are trying to provide low hour pilots to airlines a job they do very well. I do believe that as a rule many GA operators do not favour 509ers unless they have other experience and look at the air taxi companies in the UK you will see this has been the case (even before 750hrs came in). In your case I have no doubt you where a very good air taxi pilot but in my experience a self-improver pilot can initially be better suited to GA than 509. There are bad pilots coming out of both systems so I again accept this is a generalisation but I can only go by my experience.
AD
I am not against OAT if I had the chance again I would have gone there. I advise people, who ask me, that if they can afford it to go there. However I have worked at big COM schools and believe there is a too structured approach. Logging P1 in a twin while an instructor sits next to you means you always have a back up which you do not have with true P1. Many of my friends and colleagues who went to OATetc said that when they went into GA they were not comfortable with the different environment. These schools did not set up to provide GA pilots they are trying to provide low hour pilots to airlines a job they do very well. I do believe that as a rule many GA operators do not favour 509ers unless they have other experience and look at the air taxi companies in the UK you will see this has been the case (even before 750hrs came in). In your case I have no doubt you where a very good air taxi pilot but in my experience a self-improver pilot can initially be better suited to GA than 509. There are bad pilots coming out of both systems so I again accept this is a generalisation but I can only go by my experience.
AD
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Joined: Dec 1997
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From: Suffolk UK
Swinging The Lead
I'm not sure who you talked to, but I don't think there's much truth in what you were told! However, there was a very brief period when Virgin accepted applicants for long-haul Second Officer (cruise pilot). There was also a period when the airline recruited co-pilots for the Virgin Sun operation, and in both of these periods the airline, when looking at low-hour civilian-trained pilots, stated a preference (not a requirement) for CAP509-ers. That route is no longer valid, but, even then, stating a preference for a particular format of training was not the same as stating a preference for certain schools. The fact that some airlines still refer to CAP509 training is testimony only to the ignorance of their recruiters.
The fact is that airlines care only that you have the qualifications to make you eligible for whatevr they are offering. Where you obtained those qualifications is irrelevant, so long as the training was legal and carried out by a bona-fide school according to current rules and regulations.
If you seriously think that airlines like Virgin greatly care what school (or whether you were mod, integrated, CAP509 or whatever) you went through when their minimum requirements are for 3000 hours with 1500 hours commercial or military jet, you have misjudged the system!
Scroggs
I'm not sure who you talked to, but I don't think there's much truth in what you were told! However, there was a very brief period when Virgin accepted applicants for long-haul Second Officer (cruise pilot). There was also a period when the airline recruited co-pilots for the Virgin Sun operation, and in both of these periods the airline, when looking at low-hour civilian-trained pilots, stated a preference (not a requirement) for CAP509-ers. That route is no longer valid, but, even then, stating a preference for a particular format of training was not the same as stating a preference for certain schools. The fact that some airlines still refer to CAP509 training is testimony only to the ignorance of their recruiters.
The fact is that airlines care only that you have the qualifications to make you eligible for whatevr they are offering. Where you obtained those qualifications is irrelevant, so long as the training was legal and carried out by a bona-fide school according to current rules and regulations.
If you seriously think that airlines like Virgin greatly care what school (or whether you were mod, integrated, CAP509 or whatever) you went through when their minimum requirements are for 3000 hours with 1500 hours commercial or military jet, you have misjudged the system!
Scroggs
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 199
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From: South East
I would agree that airlines like Virgin dont give a jot what school you went to, however they require in the region of 2500 hours before you even get a look in. By that time who cares what school you were at, you have experience and thats far more important.
HOWEVER
The operators that take low houred pilots fresh out of training , ie Ryanair, FlyBe ( who very recently were asking for OATS recommendations) for example do care. They activly recruit from these schools and look for recomendations from them. Why? Because they know the full scope of their training and have previous experience of pilots from the schools. I am not saying that the pilots from these schools are any better than any others, they are however a known quantity, and this in turn leads to less failures, and a saving to the company.
I would agree that the chances of getting a job through a school recommendation are very very slim however....
At the end of the day its what got me my first step on the ladder.
HOWEVER
The operators that take low houred pilots fresh out of training , ie Ryanair, FlyBe ( who very recently were asking for OATS recommendations) for example do care. They activly recruit from these schools and look for recomendations from them. Why? Because they know the full scope of their training and have previous experience of pilots from the schools. I am not saying that the pilots from these schools are any better than any others, they are however a known quantity, and this in turn leads to less failures, and a saving to the company.
I would agree that the chances of getting a job through a school recommendation are very very slim however....
At the end of the day its what got me my first step on the ladder.
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,503
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From: England
I would judge that in the climate of the next few years its better to be training at a smaller school with an AOC operation than a major FTO whose phone sometimes rings with a Chief Pilot on the other end.
In the good times then this reverses.
WWW
In the good times then this reverses.
WWW
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,503
Likes: 1,846
From: England
No because there are some right muppets who go through BAE. You could be one of them.
There are similar muppet ratios at all the major FTO's. Just going somewhere impresses no-one. Perhaps passing all exams above 90% and all flight tests first time plus getting a glowing reference from the Instructors and CFI might impress someone a tiny bit.
But not much.
Flying out of say White Waltham and getting to know that bloke over there in the corner, Gerry - lovely chap, who is a senior training captain with Large Jet Airways, might do you a power more good.
Choosing schools that you think will get you a job is like trying to teach girls to throw properly. Difficult and pointless.
WWW
There are similar muppet ratios at all the major FTO's. Just going somewhere impresses no-one. Perhaps passing all exams above 90% and all flight tests first time plus getting a glowing reference from the Instructors and CFI might impress someone a tiny bit.
But not much.
Flying out of say White Waltham and getting to know that bloke over there in the corner, Gerry - lovely chap, who is a senior training captain with Large Jet Airways, might do you a power more good.
Choosing schools that you think will get you a job is like trying to teach girls to throw properly. Difficult and pointless.
WWW
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,503
Likes: 1,846
From: England
Johnny - BA have sent their cadets to Kiddlington, Bournemouth, Jerez and Cranfield and West Michigan in my memory.
They ain't loyal to one or another and regularly move around to secure the best terms.
REMEMBER that you are not BA. BA can waltz in the door and get a very different deal to the one you can sign up to. Their cadets get modified ground and air syllabi. They get extra bits added in and work to slightly different timescales. Their cadets might only be trained by the more senior instructors, they might have priority access to some resources. They will have coaching by BA staff charged with administering the scheme. They will be subject often to more thorough examination and feedback through BA stipulated paperwork and mechanisms.
Just because BA or any airline choose school X for their cadet scheme does not mean school X offers the best 'open to the general public' Frzn ATPL course.
When I was an innocent young Wannabe I used to be impressed by the fact that BA chose School X for their cadets.
Then I paid for my own training. Then I became a flying instructor at Jerez. Now I work in the airline business.
I realise now that I almost made the mistake of choosing a training provider because BA had. There may be many good reasons for choosing OATS or Jerez, but, because BA have used them recently is not one of them.
WWW
They ain't loyal to one or another and regularly move around to secure the best terms.
REMEMBER that you are not BA. BA can waltz in the door and get a very different deal to the one you can sign up to. Their cadets get modified ground and air syllabi. They get extra bits added in and work to slightly different timescales. Their cadets might only be trained by the more senior instructors, they might have priority access to some resources. They will have coaching by BA staff charged with administering the scheme. They will be subject often to more thorough examination and feedback through BA stipulated paperwork and mechanisms.
Just because BA or any airline choose school X for their cadet scheme does not mean school X offers the best 'open to the general public' Frzn ATPL course.
When I was an innocent young Wannabe I used to be impressed by the fact that BA chose School X for their cadets.
Then I paid for my own training. Then I became a flying instructor at Jerez. Now I work in the airline business.
I realise now that I almost made the mistake of choosing a training provider because BA had. There may be many good reasons for choosing OATS or Jerez, but, because BA have used them recently is not one of them.
WWW
) but that post is spot on. Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 199
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From: South East
I decided on the route that I took at the end of the day because I was a late starter (33-34) with a family and healthy mortgage to service. I didnt feel that I could afford the time that I thought the modular route would take me, but I could afford the integrated costs.
The integrated route allowed me to consentrate all of my efforts full time on the studies, and see my family once every two weeks.
The choise of school was a hard one and taken because I felt THAT AT THAT TIME the school I chose offered the best options for me. I was lucky and it all worked out in the end.
Every Wannabee has different reasons for choosing the route that they take. Each school will meet differing requirements of the individual students, be it time, cost etc etc... Choose the school that meets with your needs. You are spending alot of money make your decision wisely, and only after you have looked at what you need and how each school best meets your requirements.
The reasons BA or whoever chose this or that school are different to yours and will not neccessarily get you a job with them. In fact I do not know of one student who got a job with BA because they went to the same school as their students, but I am sure someone will correct me.
The integrated route allowed me to consentrate all of my efforts full time on the studies, and see my family once every two weeks.
The choise of school was a hard one and taken because I felt THAT AT THAT TIME the school I chose offered the best options for me. I was lucky and it all worked out in the end.
Every Wannabee has different reasons for choosing the route that they take. Each school will meet differing requirements of the individual students, be it time, cost etc etc... Choose the school that meets with your needs. You are spending alot of money make your decision wisely, and only after you have looked at what you need and how each school best meets your requirements.
The reasons BA or whoever chose this or that school are different to yours and will not neccessarily get you a job with them. In fact I do not know of one student who got a job with BA because they went to the same school as their students, but I am sure someone will correct me.
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,503
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From: England
Well I know of one self sponsored chap from Jerez in 2000 who got a recommendation to BA which got him an interview which he passed. I believe he was then scheduled to join a BA cadet course for a JOC course. Sept 11th happened and I am unsure as whether this ended or suspended his progress.
He was an exceptional student though. Almost a freak in the nicest possible way. Some fantastic degree in Incredibly Hard Sums, a GAPAN part sponsorship and he aced the course. Makes you sick ;-) but a nice enough chap.
So it was pretty rare. Back in the heydays of cadet recruitment.
Perhaps now that nobody is sponsored it will all come down to self determination and grit.
WWW
He was an exceptional student though. Almost a freak in the nicest possible way. Some fantastic degree in Incredibly Hard Sums, a GAPAN part sponsorship and he aced the course. Makes you sick ;-) but a nice enough chap.
So it was pretty rare. Back in the heydays of cadet recruitment.
Perhaps now that nobody is sponsored it will all come down to self determination and grit.
WWW
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Posts: n/a
I think that WWW is right. You can't choose an FTO on the off chance that a chief pilot happens to put their head round the door asking for some cv's. I think that could be included in one of the many reasons for choosing an FTO but probably shouldn't be the most important consideration.
As most of us will be aware though BA stated recently at the Professional Flight Training Seminar at Heathrow:
- They recruit Direct Entry Pilots (1500hrs + and type rated).
- They obviously take in pilots when they are sponsoring.
AND
- They take self sponsored cadets from ab-initio courses from selected FTOs.
Obviously a good contact inside BA would be more favourable but failing that (as in the case of 99.9% of wannabes) I know where I would rather be training given the choice.
PT
As most of us will be aware though BA stated recently at the Professional Flight Training Seminar at Heathrow:
- They recruit Direct Entry Pilots (1500hrs + and type rated).
- They obviously take in pilots when they are sponsoring.
AND
- They take self sponsored cadets from ab-initio courses from selected FTOs.
Obviously a good contact inside BA would be more favourable but failing that (as in the case of 99.9% of wannabes) I know where I would rather be training given the choice.
PT
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,503
Likes: 1,846
From: England
Ahh, I see.
PT - its all very well for some BA bod to SAY they take self sponsored people from selected FTO's but that needs a healthy dose of clarification.
a) It only happens when they are actually running a cadet course which they haven't been doing for some time now.
b) For every hundred cadets they run they must only take maybe one or two self sponsored guys to replace cadet drop outs etc. If you think the odds on a winning a BA cadetship are long then the odds on them asking you to join them following self sponsorship are phenomenal.
c) Selected FTO's means any of the big 3 and would still include West Michigan if they did JAA training and SFT if they hadn't gone bust.
d) You'd have to graduate from the course as head of your class with an impecabble records - better in fact than any actual BA cadet would need, sometimes they only just scrape through!
e) They aren't recruiting now and the likelihood of them recruiting inexperienced pilots in the future is not assured by any means.
f) Regardless of how well you performed on your course and how suitable you were you would need to be graduating in the same month that BA actually needed a few cadet replacements so the random nature of timing is involved as well.
It would make more sense to pick a FTO based on the attractiveness of their carparking facilities than on their ability to land you a place on the end of a BA cadet course.
WWW
PT - its all very well for some BA bod to SAY they take self sponsored people from selected FTO's but that needs a healthy dose of clarification.
a) It only happens when they are actually running a cadet course which they haven't been doing for some time now.
b) For every hundred cadets they run they must only take maybe one or two self sponsored guys to replace cadet drop outs etc. If you think the odds on a winning a BA cadetship are long then the odds on them asking you to join them following self sponsorship are phenomenal.
c) Selected FTO's means any of the big 3 and would still include West Michigan if they did JAA training and SFT if they hadn't gone bust.
d) You'd have to graduate from the course as head of your class with an impecabble records - better in fact than any actual BA cadet would need, sometimes they only just scrape through!
e) They aren't recruiting now and the likelihood of them recruiting inexperienced pilots in the future is not assured by any means.
f) Regardless of how well you performed on your course and how suitable you were you would need to be graduating in the same month that BA actually needed a few cadet replacements so the random nature of timing is involved as well.
It would make more sense to pick a FTO based on the attractiveness of their carparking facilities than on their ability to land you a place on the end of a BA cadet course.
WWW
