IR in winter?
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IR in winter?
Worldly wise folks,
My modular training schedule is running late by approx. 2 months which places me in the UK to do my IR in November/December this year.
Obviously there is a substantial element of sim training, but I'm a little concerned about the impact the weather may have on the time it takes to complete the actual flying. Could anyone comment if they did their IR around this time of year, is it worth delaying for a bit?
All thoughts welcomed.
Cheers,
N.W.
My modular training schedule is running late by approx. 2 months which places me in the UK to do my IR in November/December this year.
Obviously there is a substantial element of sim training, but I'm a little concerned about the impact the weather may have on the time it takes to complete the actual flying. Could anyone comment if they did their IR around this time of year, is it worth delaying for a bit?
All thoughts welcomed.
Cheers,
N.W.
I say there boy
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I did mine in summer, however a mate of mine has just finished his.
The big problem comes from the freezing level - make sure you do yours at a school with de-iced aircraft, or else you will find that you are unable to fly unless it is effectively CAVOK.
cheers!
foggy.
The big problem comes from the freezing level - make sure you do yours at a school with de-iced aircraft, or else you will find that you are unable to fly unless it is effectively CAVOK.
cheers!
foggy.
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I did my IR in Jan Feb.
It actually worked out quite well. The wx was not CPL material.
As for freezing levels yes occasionally we did pick up a bit of ice.
Made it more real actually having to tell ATC you need to decend now due icing.
The CAAFU didn't seem to bother though when 5 knts dropped off my airspeed in the enroute section. A sneaky peek confirmed we had white nipples on the props but he kept on saying "no ice". What a clatter when it dropped off on the NDB approach.
BTW its bloody scary when you don't have screens up flying IFR. Very easy to start playing a computer game with the screens up.
MJ
It actually worked out quite well. The wx was not CPL material.
As for freezing levels yes occasionally we did pick up a bit of ice.
Made it more real actually having to tell ATC you need to decend now due icing.
The CAAFU didn't seem to bother though when 5 knts dropped off my airspeed in the enroute section. A sneaky peek confirmed we had white nipples on the props but he kept on saying "no ice". What a clatter when it dropped off on the NDB approach.
BTW its bloody scary when you don't have screens up flying IFR. Very easy to start playing a computer game with the screens up.
MJ
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MJ
I think you will agree it's even scarier sat in the back of a Cougar over Sheffield City with some sort of horn going off Kev scratching his head everyone needing a slash and dogsh*t wx back at Leeds therefore having to divert to HUY with no money and no phone! Hope you are looking after yourself
I think you will agree it's even scarier sat in the back of a Cougar over Sheffield City with some sort of horn going off Kev scratching his head everyone needing a slash and dogsh*t wx back at Leeds therefore having to divert to HUY with no money and no phone! Hope you are looking after yourself
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Did mine in December.
One big advantage is there is less VFR traffic around to block the radio. I can't imagine what calling Solent in the middle of a summer saturday for an approach would be like.
Yes the weather can be bad but it can in summer too. We never encountered icing problems, but often it was too windy or worse gusty. Never do your test on a gusty day.
I don't think it makes much difference when you do it.
Whenever you do do it good luck, the test is one of the most interesting moments (or 2 hours) there is.
One big advantage is there is less VFR traffic around to block the radio. I can't imagine what calling Solent in the middle of a summer saturday for an approach would be like.
Yes the weather can be bad but it can in summer too. We never encountered icing problems, but often it was too windy or worse gusty. Never do your test on a gusty day.
I don't think it makes much difference when you do it.
Whenever you do do it good luck, the test is one of the most interesting moments (or 2 hours) there is.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I can't imagine what calling Solent in the middle of a summer saturday for an approach would be like.
Never do your test on a gusty day
You guys want to be paid to fly unsuspecting punters around the world, yet you're not happy about calling Solent on a busy day, or flying a hold in a gust???
The advice not to take your test in tricky conditions is sensible. But I'd like my training to be in as difficult conditions as possible. Not dangerous, of course - just difficult. That way I'm more likely to be able to handle difficult situations when they're thrown at me in a sim ride. And, more importantly, I'm more likely to be able to handle difficult situations when they occur in real life.
Just my own thoughts, of course... what do the rest of you think?
FFF
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FFF
I agree. The hard stuff has to be encountered at some stage so better to do it early and learn how to cope with it the right way. The rest should seem easier by comparison. Turn that round and enjoy steady conditions all the time during training, then some level of panic will set in when the more sticky moments occur.
However I do stress that it has to be difficult, not nigh on impossible conditions.
NH
I agree. The hard stuff has to be encountered at some stage so better to do it early and learn how to cope with it the right way. The rest should seem easier by comparison. Turn that round and enjoy steady conditions all the time during training, then some level of panic will set in when the more sticky moments occur.
However I do stress that it has to be difficult, not nigh on impossible conditions.
NH
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Yes that does bring back memorys. It was bad enough in the front driving the thing at least it gave me something to do.
Doing grand how about yourself
MJ
FFF you are right, you are training to fly IFR, and when are you going to take the plane to mins? When the wx is crap. Might as well get used to it with an instructor sitting next to you. In the incident refered to by Gardener we had a dodgy stall warner which went off just after clean up on the go around. Which for some reason fired off the gear warning horn. Learn't more about dealing with sick planes in the air and diversions than was ever in the IR. Bloody good lesson but it was rather nerve racking at the time.
Doing grand how about yourself
MJ
FFF you are right, you are training to fly IFR, and when are you going to take the plane to mins? When the wx is crap. Might as well get used to it with an instructor sitting next to you. In the incident refered to by Gardener we had a dodgy stall warner which went off just after clean up on the go around. Which for some reason fired off the gear warning horn. Learn't more about dealing with sick planes in the air and diversions than was ever in the IR. Bloody good lesson but it was rather nerve racking at the time.
Last edited by mad_jock; 5th Apr 2003 at 03:02.
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FlyingForFun
Spot on! The Commercial Licence with IR allows one to fly paying passengers in the clag - and that can mean severe turbulence, lightning, icing and the rest, coupled with pax throwing up, screaming (and that is a little unnerving I can tell you!), the bloody instrument panel doing a merry dance, the oxygen masks dropping out, WHILE you check the deicing, pressurisation, run the checks and try to fly the approach down to minima. All good fun!
Spot on! The Commercial Licence with IR allows one to fly paying passengers in the clag - and that can mean severe turbulence, lightning, icing and the rest, coupled with pax throwing up, screaming (and that is a little unnerving I can tell you!), the bloody instrument panel doing a merry dance, the oxygen masks dropping out, WHILE you check the deicing, pressurisation, run the checks and try to fly the approach down to minima. All good fun!
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FFF,
Thanks for your comments. They are valid and I think you are valid in questioning the points I made. I note you have probably passed your ATPLs, congratulations, they were hard enough,
and would I be correct in guessing you may not yet have had the pleasure of the CAAFU IR examiner yet.
I don't want this to turn into a tit for tat posting but I stand by the points I made. No-one I went throught the course with relished a gusty or a VFR day for the test for the two reasons I mentioned. I'm trying to save you money and heartache. The average retest costs 3000 pounds including retraining not including the initial 10,000 for the training.
I agree that the hard stuff should be covered in training to prepare you for real life but believe me when you meet Mr or Ms CAAFU you want the whole world to be going your way. It would be naive to underestimate the pressure and sheer expense involved in passing this test. I have not yet met a person who has done the IRT who has said it was a doddle. Remember the intial pass rate is 50% or less.
Everyone I have spoken to that has been throught the IRT, this includes airline pilots and IR renewal examiners, has said life gets easier from then on. This includes actual IFR flying and renewal rests .
The whole test is hard and anything that puts it in your favour is to be welcomed. Believe me the CAAFU guys will not let you pass if you are not good enough. There is no such thing as getting a bye on this test.
Taking all of this into account if you can make the test easier with reduced radio pressure and calm conditions then do it.
I sincerely hope that your IR goes swimmingly , and I do hope you get a first time pass. But its very hard.
Thanks for your comments. They are valid and I think you are valid in questioning the points I made. I note you have probably passed your ATPLs, congratulations, they were hard enough,
and would I be correct in guessing you may not yet have had the pleasure of the CAAFU IR examiner yet.
I don't want this to turn into a tit for tat posting but I stand by the points I made. No-one I went throught the course with relished a gusty or a VFR day for the test for the two reasons I mentioned. I'm trying to save you money and heartache. The average retest costs 3000 pounds including retraining not including the initial 10,000 for the training.
I agree that the hard stuff should be covered in training to prepare you for real life but believe me when you meet Mr or Ms CAAFU you want the whole world to be going your way. It would be naive to underestimate the pressure and sheer expense involved in passing this test. I have not yet met a person who has done the IRT who has said it was a doddle. Remember the intial pass rate is 50% or less.
Everyone I have spoken to that has been throught the IRT, this includes airline pilots and IR renewal examiners, has said life gets easier from then on. This includes actual IFR flying and renewal rests .
The whole test is hard and anything that puts it in your favour is to be welcomed. Believe me the CAAFU guys will not let you pass if you are not good enough. There is no such thing as getting a bye on this test.
Taking all of this into account if you can make the test easier with reduced radio pressure and calm conditions then do it.
I sincerely hope that your IR goes swimmingly , and I do hope you get a first time pass. But its very hard.
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IRT
Many of the posts have good points - and some questionable ones.
Remember that the privileges of the IR (Multi) permit you to command a multi engine aircraft, on a Public Transport Flight, under Instrument Flight Rules, to single pilot minima, in all classes of airspace, and anywhere in the World. (subject to specific exceptions)
The IRT is possibly the only skill test you will take with a CAA Staff Examiner - just about everything else is taken with an Authorised Examiner.
The IRT Examiner is testing to a Standard clearly defined in CAA FCL Standards Doc 1, Vs 3 (should be available off the web, but it is 38 pages)
The weather minima is defined in para 3.4, and it is the applicants responsibility to say if the flight goes ahead, although the Examiner may decline to continue with the test even though the applicant is willing, if he/she thinks that the weather (especially wind/turbulence) would prevent an accurate assessment of the pilots ability to be made.
In para 4.1.3 it states that a failure will not necessarily result if a flight limit/boundary is exeeded - the examiner has discretion.
In para 4.1.4 it states that the examiner will make allowance for adverse weather conditions. Conversly, you might assume that an Examiner is also capable of making allowances for excellent weather conditions in which case his/her tolerances might be somewhat less flexible.
If you are unable to cope with busy RT in controlled UK airspace, in genuine IFR conditions, then really you are not ready for the IRT.
My humble advice would be to make sure that you train on a de-iced aircraft, and experience real icing conditions. Ensure that your training includes as much real flight time, in busy airspace, as is possible in genuine IFR conditions (Winter is ideal especially if you are training from a "proper" airport, where you might additionally get some night IR hours in your logbook as well) Make sure that your training includes just about every type of procedural approach you can think of - the examiner can request more or less anything, and some of them do - this is not a driving test.
Although its not universally true, the person who has done most of their IR training in a sim, is the person usually looking for the nicest and quietest day on which to do the IRT, on a route second guessed from the examiner, and which has been practised a dozen times in the sim.
Real flying in IFR conditions isn't like that.
Good luck, and I hope my comments are useful.
Remember that the privileges of the IR (Multi) permit you to command a multi engine aircraft, on a Public Transport Flight, under Instrument Flight Rules, to single pilot minima, in all classes of airspace, and anywhere in the World. (subject to specific exceptions)
The IRT is possibly the only skill test you will take with a CAA Staff Examiner - just about everything else is taken with an Authorised Examiner.
The IRT Examiner is testing to a Standard clearly defined in CAA FCL Standards Doc 1, Vs 3 (should be available off the web, but it is 38 pages)
The weather minima is defined in para 3.4, and it is the applicants responsibility to say if the flight goes ahead, although the Examiner may decline to continue with the test even though the applicant is willing, if he/she thinks that the weather (especially wind/turbulence) would prevent an accurate assessment of the pilots ability to be made.
In para 4.1.3 it states that a failure will not necessarily result if a flight limit/boundary is exeeded - the examiner has discretion.
In para 4.1.4 it states that the examiner will make allowance for adverse weather conditions. Conversly, you might assume that an Examiner is also capable of making allowances for excellent weather conditions in which case his/her tolerances might be somewhat less flexible.
If you are unable to cope with busy RT in controlled UK airspace, in genuine IFR conditions, then really you are not ready for the IRT.
My humble advice would be to make sure that you train on a de-iced aircraft, and experience real icing conditions. Ensure that your training includes as much real flight time, in busy airspace, as is possible in genuine IFR conditions (Winter is ideal especially if you are training from a "proper" airport, where you might additionally get some night IR hours in your logbook as well) Make sure that your training includes just about every type of procedural approach you can think of - the examiner can request more or less anything, and some of them do - this is not a driving test.
Although its not universally true, the person who has done most of their IR training in a sim, is the person usually looking for the nicest and quietest day on which to do the IRT, on a route second guessed from the examiner, and which has been practised a dozen times in the sim.
Real flying in IFR conditions isn't like that.
Good luck, and I hope my comments are useful.
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Very wise words from cfb.
I think it will be an advantage to do your IRT training in the winter time as you will be significantly better at IF having done it for real i.e. no screens. Choosing a test day is then a game of skill and chance. It's the training thats critical. Enjoy it.
I think it will be an advantage to do your IRT training in the winter time as you will be significantly better at IF having done it for real i.e. no screens. Choosing a test day is then a game of skill and chance. It's the training thats critical. Enjoy it.
