65K Plus for an ATPL?
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As the Head of sales & Marketing at Oxford I have looked through this chain with Interest. I would like thank Paul for his timely comments and if anyone wants to email me for information (correct and official) I will be more than happy to answer them. One one technical point, all students who pass the Assessment, which is done independantly from Oxford, will be seen by ALL the Partner airlines before they actually start the course. This might have cost £275 for the priviledge, but you will know what you are capable of and what the airlines are wanting before you start.
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Richard
I can see why this scheme might be attractive to the airlines, but I'm dubious about the prospect of 'partners' retrospectively sponsoring students to the tune of 30K.
A student who's embarked on a self-sponsored integrated course has surely already proved that they have access to the funds necessary to obtain the precious tickets. They've also proved that they're desperate for a flying job. Given both these factors, why would a chief pilot feel the need to part with 30k to get that student into his/her airline? Sure the student might have a better chance of employment thanks to the partnership program, but are you really expecting to be able to generate a competitive marketplace for self-sponsored students within OAT?
If it's possible then that's good news for everyone, but I think I'd be wanting some kind of guarantee for 65k
SF
I can see why this scheme might be attractive to the airlines, but I'm dubious about the prospect of 'partners' retrospectively sponsoring students to the tune of 30K.
A student who's embarked on a self-sponsored integrated course has surely already proved that they have access to the funds necessary to obtain the precious tickets. They've also proved that they're desperate for a flying job. Given both these factors, why would a chief pilot feel the need to part with 30k to get that student into his/her airline? Sure the student might have a better chance of employment thanks to the partnership program, but are you really expecting to be able to generate a competitive marketplace for self-sponsored students within OAT?
If it's possible then that's good news for everyone, but I think I'd be wanting some kind of guarantee for 65k
SF
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I notice on another thread that an organisation offering 'airline preparation' is being slated because none of the staff have any airline experience. Perhaps the Head of Sales and Marketing would like to tell us how many of OAT's flight instructors have any airline experience (corporate flying in a twin piston doesn't count). Unless they've had a major recruiting drive in the last three months since I left, there's only a couple of FIs with any commercial aviation experience whatsoever, it's now all ex-service or ex-flying club - the perfect place to prepare one for the airlines I would have thought. Admittedly some of the STIs are ex-airline (BEA, BOAC, that sort of thing).
On an allied subject, I'd be a bit wary about the claims of a '737 simulator' - they ain't got one. What they have is a Frasca FNPT (Flight Navigation Procedure Trainer) configured as a glass cockpit 737, same as WMU with a similar (un)serviceability record by all accounts.
As to the 'partner' airlines looking no further for their ab-initio entrants - if you believe that then I have this car you might be interested in, nice little runner, one lady owner, only used it a weekends.
On an allied subject, I'd be a bit wary about the claims of a '737 simulator' - they ain't got one. What they have is a Frasca FNPT (Flight Navigation Procedure Trainer) configured as a glass cockpit 737, same as WMU with a similar (un)serviceability record by all accounts.
As to the 'partner' airlines looking no further for their ab-initio entrants - if you believe that then I have this car you might be interested in, nice little runner, one lady owner, only used it a weekends.
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Hmm...this Mormoner chap. Can volenteer to kick the **** out of him coz I've just returned from the pub and fancy hearing his FranoYanky squeals as true Brit fist hits his fat gob.
God Save the Queen.
edited due to Stella Artois enthusiam
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Blackshirt ]
God Save the Queen.
edited due to Stella Artois enthusiam
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Blackshirt ]
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Question for the OATS guys - Will the offer from airlines to part sponsor a student during the course be subject to their usual age criteria? I only ask because it seems few airlines will (fully) sponsor anyone older than 28 - just wondering if the same applies here?
Desk-pilot
Desk-pilot
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as an italian I think I'm one of the few lucky EU citizen to be able to complete a CPL/IR+MCC+T/R on heavy jet for less than 70k euro and without having to comply with this JAA-hell, which is what I'm trying to do before jars will destroy aviation here too. About pilot shortage I think this is not true, airlines are not short of pilots, they are short of pilots willing to pay a load of money+accepting the risk not to get the job. I don't know why there are a lot of guys willing to pay 75k pound for a job (not granted). here in italy a f/o usually gets about 2500-3500 euros less 50% taxes and maybe even bonding. with 20k you can attend a private university and get a master degree and then get a 5000 euros x month job (yes I know we love flying).
so are we going to madness? alitalia started its own school asking 80k euros for ab-initio+mcc without type rating and without job, and they are full.
I can't understand why.
many airtaxi companies here do not have payed f/o they only have f/o who pay for flying.
an instructor of mine uses to say:"working as a pilot is for rich people but rich people are too clever to work as a pilot".
bye
so are we going to madness? alitalia started its own school asking 80k euros for ab-initio+mcc without type rating and without job, and they are full.
I can't understand why.
many airtaxi companies here do not have payed f/o they only have f/o who pay for flying.
an instructor of mine uses to say:"working as a pilot is for rich people but rich people are too clever to work as a pilot".
bye
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Rolling Circle....OATS have, according to 'Pilot' magazine, just purchased a 737-400 sim at the princely sum of $4million.
Paul, thankyou for the response on some of the points raised. Your closing argument about people 'not being pilot material' becasue they had mis-read your post was rather childish though.
Like I said in one of my earlier threads, and as has become more apparent over this thread, there is obviously more to this than a student stumping up 65k for an ATPL course.
Paul, thankyou for the response on some of the points raised. Your closing argument about people 'not being pilot material' becasue they had mis-read your post was rather childish though.
Like I said in one of my earlier threads, and as has become more apparent over this thread, there is obviously more to this than a student stumping up 65k for an ATPL course.
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If these airlines value quality applicants why do they select only the wealthy ?
£75K Bank Balance => Quality Applicant
They are sacrificing applicant quality for low training costs - which is contrary to the stated objectives above
£75K Bank Balance => Quality Applicant
They are sacrificing applicant quality for low training costs - which is contrary to the stated objectives above
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Oxford aviation, I need you bank account number for a transfer of 65K.I've decided that I want be an airline pilot.I don't want to go to the USA, they don't know to fly there and the training cost only 15K.
Disregard people posting here, they don't know what the are talking about.I'm sure you are the best school in the world.
sincerely,
a futur B777 pilot
Disregard people posting here, they don't know what the are talking about.I'm sure you are the best school in the world.
sincerely,
a futur B777 pilot
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Quoting Paul Hickley:
"...you should only need to tell a pilot something once...If you can't take it in after being told twice, perhaps you're not very suitable pilot material"
Does anyone else think Ronchonner/Arnaud/Mormoner/Trouduc fits into this category?
WE DON'T HAVE GREEN CARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FAA LICENCE WORTH ****** ALL IN UK!!!!!!!
TB
"...you should only need to tell a pilot something once...If you can't take it in after being told twice, perhaps you're not very suitable pilot material"
Does anyone else think Ronchonner/Arnaud/Mormoner/Trouduc fits into this category?
WE DON'T HAVE GREEN CARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FAA LICENCE WORTH ****** ALL IN UK!!!!!!!
TB
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As a retired 767 Captain who came up the self-improver route in the 1970's, I would be extremely wary of parting with £65 for an ATPL course. I worked in Holland for a number of years and most of my young co-pilots came from wealthy families. It was almost impossible for anyone without large financial resources to break into the airlines other than being a KLM cadet. With the new JAR's coming into effect and no more self-improvers coming through the system, I hate to predict the future. It really is a jungle out there lads. I worked for 10 airlines that went bust. To take on such a high level of debt (and remember you have to repay your debt out of taxed income) in the present economic climate is just too risky. I would not contemplate a career in aviation today unless it is paid for by an airline sponsorship scheme or the military. Also, if you get a job with an airline, they will bond you up to the eyeballs. Would I do it all again...probably not. If you want to fly get a good job and hire a light aircraft..
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where does a working class lad find nearly 70 grand. does any rich people out there want to lend me 30 grand. thats all i need. ill say it again. because it is easy, thats all i need.
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Well here we are, some 30 hours later and no response from the great OAT Sales and Marketing. No surprises there then!
bow5 - Having paid Frasca $4m I'm sure that the marketing department of OAT would like to think that they have a simulator, but they don't. What they have is actually approved as a FNPT II (MCC), no better than the fixed base FTDs at LGU, AFT and 4 Forces. The words 'taken' 'for' and 'ride' spring to mind. Let's hear it for Rudi!!
bow5 - Having paid Frasca $4m I'm sure that the marketing department of OAT would like to think that they have a simulator, but they don't. What they have is actually approved as a FNPT II (MCC), no better than the fixed base FTDs at LGU, AFT and 4 Forces. The words 'taken' 'for' and 'ride' spring to mind. Let's hear it for Rudi!!
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RJA, who said he is head of b..... at OATS, has posted no defence or description of their sales and marketing strategy but simply solicits questions- no doubt so that he can then work on any punters in private.
This topic contains no individual customer complaint, which might become a public pissing-match that OATS would wish to avoid.
So, apart from a promise that you will be seen by some airlines with no guarantee of anything, why do OATS say nothing about why their course is worth a small fortune?
Is the answer that there is nothing to say?
This topic contains no individual customer complaint, which might become a public pissing-match that OATS would wish to avoid.
So, apart from a promise that you will be seen by some airlines with no guarantee of anything, why do OATS say nothing about why their course is worth a small fortune?
Is the answer that there is nothing to say?
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Sales & Marketing at Oxford ;
Let's hope that you cross the t's and dot the i's before the CAA come to visit this week when they ask (and they will) why you have too few instructors (or is it too many students) resulting in some (modular) students flying 5 hours a month.
The students and instructors will only put up with your games for so long.
One would almost think you were on commission per student.
With just a little foresight, effective management, some credible leadership, (and the same superb instructors) you really could be the best.
If I had to do it all again I'd go elsewhere and do it in half the time.
[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: Base leg ]
Let's hope that you cross the t's and dot the i's before the CAA come to visit this week when they ask (and they will) why you have too few instructors (or is it too many students) resulting in some (modular) students flying 5 hours a month.
The students and instructors will only put up with your games for so long.
One would almost think you were on commission per student.
With just a little foresight, effective management, some credible leadership, (and the same superb instructors) you really could be the best.
If I had to do it all again I'd go elsewhere and do it in half the time.
[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: Base leg ]
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It is not suprising that Oxford have no instructors. Why sweat your guts out for a CPL (costing £60K) and then end up instructing.! The self-improver route has always been the source of instructors that train new pilots. The CAA in its wisdom have stopped all that.A far more serious situation than the qualified pilot shortage is a shortage of flying instructors. Just you wait..you ain't seen nothing yet.
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bow5 - Thanks for your sensible and appraising approach. However, I completely defend my remark about concentrating and thinking. I don't for a moment think that it was childish. This is a game for adults. The standards ARE high. It's not like PPL flying. If someone isn't up to it, they're in the wrong business. Become a hairdresser, a librarian, a market gardener, or whatever - something more suited to their talents. Not better. Not worse. I'm not judgemental. Just something more suited to that individual's talents. Good pilots CAN concentrate. They DO take things in first time. Part of the problem with many of the contributors to this thread is that they think that mere possession of a licence gives them a right to an easy living. Life isn't like that. You have to persuade an employer that you're good - not merely good, but better than the competition. You won't do that if you're a woolly thinker who needs to be told things twice. No, on balance, I think that it was a mature and well-considered remark. I try not to make any other kind.
Token bird - I'm not getting shirty. I just expect higher standards of debate and understanding from would-be pilots. (See previous paragraph). May I also correct a point? I did not say that those who don't get jobs will be transferred to the standard ATPL course and get £11K back. What I said was that I believed that the course would not actually cost £65K to any student. My reasons are as follows:- If you get offered a contract, you will be offered some sponsorship money from the time you are taken on. Because I believe that everyone who completes this course WILL get a job, the only people who don't get a job will be those who have been withdrawn from the Partnership course - in which case, it will have cost them less than £65K to complete their ATPL.
Neil767 - Prior to this course, I would have agreed with you that neither Oxford nor any other school could have guaranteed a job. But I believe that this course may be different because it will make any graduate too hot a property to pass over. This will not be particularly because of the instruction (though this will help), but because of the calibre of the students. Careful selection, 85% or better in every exam, good flying grade, full and detailed reports - this is BA, Aer Lingus, or bmi sponsored standard. They'll be snapped up. I agree, that's not a 100% guarantee - but it's a damned high probability.
To everyone - I now intend to withdraw from this particular thread. The arguments are becoming circular and repetitive and I don't think we are going to see much else that is new. I just hope that those readers appraising the information to be found here will note that when I (and many others not hostile to the idea) have posted, our contributions are cogent and backed up with reasons and arguments. Many of these points are then dismissed by knockers with a snide comment about Oxford, a gibe, or an accusation against my integrity, and (most importantly), no reasoned argument. A case in point is when I explained (in response to a question) why I thought that the Partnership airlines would look no further for their ab initio entrants. I gave a couple of paragraphs explanation why I thought this would be the case. Someone responded with a sneer about a used car. No attempt at fact, logic, or reason. It's not the only case - just one of many examples.
This isn't too much of a problem because I believe that any reader with intelligence and judgement will be perfectly capable of forming his own opinions. and it's only those who do have intelligence and judgement who are the right people to be the next generation of airline pilots.
Finally, whatever you or I think, however well argued, is mere speculation. The only proof of the pudding will be in about a year from now when the first 18 Partnership cadets graduate. If, as I believe, all 18 of them have a contract and part sponsorship, they will be the winners. The moaners, the whingers, the pessimists, the knockers will be what, in most cases, their postings on this site show them to be already - LOS....... No, I won't spell it out, it's too unkind. Work it out for yourselves.
See you again on another thread sometime.
All the best,
Paul Hickley
[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: Paul Hickley, Gen Nav Spec, Oxford ]
[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: Paul Hickley, Gen Nav Spec, Oxford ]
Token bird - I'm not getting shirty. I just expect higher standards of debate and understanding from would-be pilots. (See previous paragraph). May I also correct a point? I did not say that those who don't get jobs will be transferred to the standard ATPL course and get £11K back. What I said was that I believed that the course would not actually cost £65K to any student. My reasons are as follows:- If you get offered a contract, you will be offered some sponsorship money from the time you are taken on. Because I believe that everyone who completes this course WILL get a job, the only people who don't get a job will be those who have been withdrawn from the Partnership course - in which case, it will have cost them less than £65K to complete their ATPL.
Neil767 - Prior to this course, I would have agreed with you that neither Oxford nor any other school could have guaranteed a job. But I believe that this course may be different because it will make any graduate too hot a property to pass over. This will not be particularly because of the instruction (though this will help), but because of the calibre of the students. Careful selection, 85% or better in every exam, good flying grade, full and detailed reports - this is BA, Aer Lingus, or bmi sponsored standard. They'll be snapped up. I agree, that's not a 100% guarantee - but it's a damned high probability.
To everyone - I now intend to withdraw from this particular thread. The arguments are becoming circular and repetitive and I don't think we are going to see much else that is new. I just hope that those readers appraising the information to be found here will note that when I (and many others not hostile to the idea) have posted, our contributions are cogent and backed up with reasons and arguments. Many of these points are then dismissed by knockers with a snide comment about Oxford, a gibe, or an accusation against my integrity, and (most importantly), no reasoned argument. A case in point is when I explained (in response to a question) why I thought that the Partnership airlines would look no further for their ab initio entrants. I gave a couple of paragraphs explanation why I thought this would be the case. Someone responded with a sneer about a used car. No attempt at fact, logic, or reason. It's not the only case - just one of many examples.
This isn't too much of a problem because I believe that any reader with intelligence and judgement will be perfectly capable of forming his own opinions. and it's only those who do have intelligence and judgement who are the right people to be the next generation of airline pilots.
Finally, whatever you or I think, however well argued, is mere speculation. The only proof of the pudding will be in about a year from now when the first 18 Partnership cadets graduate. If, as I believe, all 18 of them have a contract and part sponsorship, they will be the winners. The moaners, the whingers, the pessimists, the knockers will be what, in most cases, their postings on this site show them to be already - LOS....... No, I won't spell it out, it's too unkind. Work it out for yourselves.
See you again on another thread sometime.
All the best,
Paul Hickley
[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: Paul Hickley, Gen Nav Spec, Oxford ]
[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: Paul Hickley, Gen Nav Spec, Oxford ]