The end of JAA PPL's in the U.S. A ???
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The end of JAA PPL's in the U.S. A ???
I am a FAA instructor teaching JAA ppl's. My employer informed me I need to find a new job as of march 31, because the jaa no longer belives I am qualified to train pilots. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .Is this true ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .Where can I find out more info on this ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />
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FAA Instructors can teach JAA PPL's but must show 'knowledge' of JAR. What this means I have no idea, but I did hear rumours that 15 hrs 'JAA training' was required. I suppose an FAA instructor with a JAA PPL would be ok though.... .. .Cheers. .EA
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Here you go, found the info on the JAA Website, <a href="http://www.jaa.nl/jar/jar/355000/355312/355312.pdf...sorry" target="_blank">http://www.jaa.nl/jar/jar/355000/355312/355312.pdf...sorry</a> the text is a bit messed up, had to copy and paste from .pdf.. .. .Cheers. .EA. .. .SECTION 1 JAR-FCL 1 Subpart H. .[Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.300. .Requirements for a specific authorisation for instructors not holding a JAR-FCL licence to. .instruct in a FTO or TRTO outside JAA Member States. .(See JAR-FCL 1.30O(a)(2)(iii)). .1 (a) Instructors seeking to instruct for a JAR-FCL licence including class and instrument ratings shall:. .hold at least a CPL and ratings issued in accordance with ICAO Annex I required by the. .respective non JAA State for the instruction to be given on aircraft registered in that State;. .have completed at least 500 hours of flight time as a pilot of aeroplanes of which at least. .200 hours shall be as a flight instructor relevant to the intended training to be given and meet the. .experience requirements of JAR-FCL 1.330(a), (b), (c), (d) andor (e);. .(iii) have completed in accordance with JAR-FCL the approved relevant course(s) of theoretical. .instruction and flight training. The course may be modified, as approved by the Authority, taking into. .account the previous training and the experience of the applicant, but shall comprise at least 30 hours. .of ground instruction and 15 hours of dual flight instruction performed by a flight instructor holding a. .JAR-FCL licence and rating in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.33O(f);. .(i). .(ii). .(iv) have passed the skill test set out in JAR-FCL 1.345;. .(v) validity period of the authorisation is at the discretion of the Authority but not exceeding. .3 years;. .(vi) revalidation or renewal of any authorisation issued in accordance with para (i) - (iv) above. .The authorisation will be restricted as follows:. .(i) no instruction for the issue of any instructor ratings;. .(ii) no instruction within a JAA Member State;. .(iii) instruction to students only who have sufficient knowledge of the language in which the. .(iv) to those parts of the ATP integrated course where the instructor can demonstrate the. .(v) no instruction for MCC.. .Instructors seeking to instruct for a JAR-FCL type rating shall:. .shall be in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.355.. .(b). .instruction is given;. .experience relevant to the intended training according to l(a)(ii);. .2 (a). .(i) hold at least the licence and ratings issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 required by. .the respective non JAA Member State for the instruction to be given on aircraft registered in that State;. .(ii) comply with the experience requirements of JAR-FCL 1.365(a)(2) and (3) in order to act as. .TRI (A) or with JAR-FCL 1.4 1 O(a)(3) and (7) in order to act as SFI(A).. .(iii) have completed as a type rating instructor (TRI(A) or equivalent) at least 100 hours of. .flight or simulator instruction time;. .(iv) validity period of the authorisation is at the discretion of the Authority but not exceeding. .3 years;. .(v) have complied with the revalidation requirements of JAR-FCL 1.370 acting as TRI(A) or. .JAR-FCL 1.4 15 acting as SFI(A).. .(b) The authorisation will be restricted as follows:. .(i). .(ii). .(iii) no instruction for MCC.]. .no instruction for the issue of any instructor ratings;. .instruction to students only who have sufficient knowledge of the language in which the. .instruction is given
I was forecasting this 18 months ago. All thats going to happen is that the financial penalty for being able to teach JAA PPL in the USA will mean instructors will have to be paid about 3 times more than normal. . .. .This will add something like £700 to the price of a US JAA PPL. . .. .Not a crippling amount but enough to make the savings negligble.. .. .WWW
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Wee...not a particularly stunning "forecast" - the JAR rules have been on the cards for way more than 18 months.. .. .Capt. Emerald.....do you "really" think it is a bad thing that the JAA want you to be qualified to teach the subject??. .. .Do the FAA allow any ICAO instructor, from any other Country, to teach FAA pilot license applicants without being an FAA CFI??. .. .Teaching somebody how to operate an aircraft is - I agree - probably the same in most Countries ... pull stick back, cows get smaller ... pull stick back further, cows get bigger again.. .. .Then comes the question of air law. How many FAA instructors have knowledge of JAA air law (quadrantal rule, distance to fly to qualify as a cross country flight, non IFR flights in Class A airspace, altitude limits below airways, Rule 5, no night VFR, etc.). .. .Meterology....freezing levels, mountain fog, carburettor icing, airframe icing, - I'm thinking of the Floridians here...I may give you Thunderstorms (but I have seen a PA28 DEPARTING on a dual training flight, in the midst of a thunderstorm, so maybe I won't).. .. .R/T .... although you disagree with the European procedures and phraseology (even though the FAA and AOPA don't) ... the client that pays your mortgage is still hoping to learn it through you.. .. .Navigation .... not done here the way they want to TEST it for European operations during the clients "check ride". Don't care if "it works here" ...it's not what the client really needs.. .. .Performance, Airframes and Human Factors....well, I'm sure any decent instructor could do those...and the JAA may be quite happy for you to teach it - rather than tell the student to go home with Trevor Thom Book "X" and teach himself. This, however, is not like the FAA - they want you to have a ground instructor qualification...based on the FAA syllabus.. .. .Whilst I am 100% for ICAO instructors teaching ICAO flying to ICAO students in ICAO aircraft in ICAO airspace - all the JAA are asking you to do is to STANDARDIZE with the syllabus that you are meant to be teaching....and I don't find that to be at all questionable.. .. .I know that I, with over 3,000 hours of "dual given" would not be allowed to teach a JAA student in FAA airspace without a full FAA CFI rating (which entails full commercial and instrument rating first). This is way more than the 30 hours of ground school and 15 hours of flight training that the JAA is asking you to do.. .. .Nobody is questioning (at least, not at this point) your ability to teach a student to fly an aircraft. They are simply asking you to partially standardize with the instructors that are fully rated to teach the relevant subject - which YOU, apparently, are not.. .. .I don't think this is unfair.
GoneWest - I know it was hardly Mystic Meg stuff but although the they said they might do this it was highly debateable whether they ever would for some time.. .. .I am glad that they have as it levels the playing field somewhat. Unfortunate that it increases the costs in the short term.. .. .A couple of thousand extra PPL courses being conducted in the UK will do wonders for UK FI's, schools and GA. . .. .WWW
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Gone West. .. .Some very valid and well put points.. .. .Having said that I firmly believe that there will still be a place for JAA training in the USA, provided,the syllabus is being properly taught.. .. .What on earth is wrong with US intructors having to be qualified in onder to teach the JAA syllabus. As an instructor here, I can't jump into an N reg plane and teach the FAA sylabus any more than an FAA instructor should be allowed to teach JAA.. .. .That said my FIRST HAND experience of USA training is that it is first class in the main. However, if the customer goes out there to train for flying over here it is only right that their instructor is fully conversant with JAA practice.. .. .The problem will still be that there are elements of the JAA syllabus and RT that you can't use in US airspace.. .. .WWW where on earth do you get your £700 (nearly 20%!) extra on the price of a PPL from???. .. .I have no doubt that our US instructor cousins will do what we instructors over here do...stump up the cash for additional ratings in order to remain employable in a difficult market. Will they be paid any more? well what do you think!?. .. .Wouldn't it be nice if us underworked underpaid UK instructors could take advantage of the situation and teach JAA over there? Sadly not on unless you add a FAA CPL,IR and FI to your already overpriced list of credentials!.. even if you only teach JAA PPL.. .. .Works both ways!. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 10:10: Message edited by: clear prop!!! ]</small>
In the same way as IMC rated instructors charge a premium so will JAA approved FI's in the States. There will be a significant cost and effort involved in getting JAA Approved and they will rightly seek compensation for this. . .. .Will they have to maintain the JAA approval with checkrides/seminars I wonder?. .. .If they charged about £15hr premium like IMC instructors do then that would world out at about £700 on a 45hr course.. .. .Maybe. Depends a bit on supply and demand of course.. .. .As I have said many many times. If you can - train PPL CPL and IR at the same school in the same aircraft with the same instructors. It makes that IRT a whole lot easier and THAT is the hurdle you should be focussed on from day one.. .. .WWW
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Just like to point out that the JAA has been around...ooh, a few years, and the FAA has been around for donkeys years. . .. .I think it is fair enough that FAA pilots become fully clued up on the JARs etc through a ground course, but is it really nescessary having to do 30 hrs flying and the FI rating? Its Boll@cks, another way for the JAA to keep jobs for the boys (and girls). After all, flying is flying, whether it be in the US, UK or Mongolia. Oh, and 'freezing levels' are the same regardless, you don't have to be a super-JAA-Instructor to realise this. Actually, most FAA CFIs are probably better qualified to teach PPL flying, after all, most of them already have a IR as well as a CPL before getting the CFI rating (and often they get the CFII pretty soon too). I've flown with numerous instructors in the UK who posses just a CPL FI(R)and IMC rating...know which I'd rather be flying with in marginal weather (and its important for students to experience marginal weather).. .. .Ok, rant over. Now for the positive points. 1) The JAA PPL will probably not be around for too long, before the CAA takes control again, and I forecast that they will be more likely to allow ICAO FIs to train for the UK PPL. 2) In the mean time, it opens up the possibilities of issuing the H1 (specialist) visa to JAA FIs to teach in the US, as there will be insufficient FAA CFIs with the JAA FI rating to train JAA students..... .. .Cheers. .EA
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englishal - having taken the trouble to cut and paste the appropriate requirements, it's a pity you didn't read them. The requirement is not for 30 hrs flight training, only 15.. .. .Whilst your forecast of the JAA's life expectancy may or may not be true, it is already clear that it will not be the UK CAA that takes control of its licensing but the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). As an EU Agency, EASA will be able to enshrine the JAA requirements into EU law, removing what little flexibility the UK CAA now claims. It is likely that most licensing functions will be transferred to EASA HQ, probably in Belgium or the Netherlands, leaving the UK FCL as no more than a regional office, somewhat akin to a FAA FSDO. It is a little understood fact that plans are well advanced for this bureaucratic nightmare, which is due to take over responsibility for all EU states' flight crew licensing within a few years.. .. .As to the requirements for non-JAA instructors teaching for the JAA PPL in non-JAA countries, let's consider level playing fields.. .. .When JAR-FCL 1 was first published, the US government immediately recognised the protectionist nature of the requirements concerning principle place of business (JAR-FCL 1.055) and the restriction of overseas training to all or part of the ATP integrated course (App 1b to JAR-FCL 1.055). In an effort to cut the ground from under the feet of the JAA at an upcoming GATT meeting, FARs were hurriedly amended to allow training for FAA licences to take place outside the US. However, were a non-FAA FI to wish to instruct for the FAA PPL outside the US, the FAA required said instructor to hold, as a minimum, a FAA Commercial, IR and CFI and to instruct under the auspices of a FAA approved training organisation.. .. .Since everything about the FAA is so perfect, we should obviously follow their example and require non-JAA instructors to hold, as a minimum, a JAA PPL, pass the CPL knowledge exams and hold a JAA FI(R) before being permitted to teach for the JAA PPL.
Large round of applause for Rolling Circle. The issue is far more complicated than many people realise until you've actually been a flying instructor in JAA world and watched your potential customers nip over stateside where you yourself are not allowed.. .. .WWW. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 13:43: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]</small>
Thank you, RC, for such a very clear resume of the whole situation regarding insruction towards the JAR/FCL PPL being conducted in a non-JAA member state.. .. .The following advice was recently given by the CAA to anyone considering going to a non-JAA member state for JAR/FCL PPL training:. . . ."Information regarding PPL/A training in the USA or a non-JAA State 05 March 2002 . . . .In September 1999 the CAA was approved by the JAA to issue licences in accordance with JAR-FCL 1 requirements. Since then, there has been a great deal of communication with all overseas flight training providers, to advise on existing and forthcoming requirements. Subsequently, under Notice of Proposed Amendment (NPA) 14, now adopted, JAR-FCL 1 has developed to require the approval of overseas PPL schools and the training of their Flight Instructors. The target date set for compliance is 31 March 2002, from which date PPL schools are required to be approved and to apply the required training to FI’s.. .. .Before committing yourself, or someone you wish to sponsor, to a course of training towards the JAA PPL(A) conducted in the USA or other non-JAA State, likely to be completed beyond the 31st March 2002, you should ascertain that: . .. .1. The Organisation offering the PPL(A) course has been approved by the UK CAA or another JAA State and . .. .2. The FI providing individual instruction meets the requirements of the UK CAA.. .. .At the commencement of, and during the PPL(A) course of training, the student or sponsor should ensure that any change of Flight Instructor complies with the requirements.. .. .It is appreciated that there may be a natural reluctance to ask these question but the cost of the PPL(A) course is a considerable investment. Please ensure that you invest wisely and ask questions.. .. .The list of approved training schools issued by the CAA covers those with an issued approval. There are numerous other schools whose approval issue is in the system awaiting final confirmation. It is therefore vital that you speak directly with the training provider.". .. . Of course you could always go to the USA for FAA training and subsequently fly day VFR over here....
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...or get an FAA IR and fly an N reg IFR over here of course...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Whilst your forecast of the JAA's life expectancy may or may not be true, it is already clear that it will not be the UK CAA that takes control of its licensing but the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). As an EU Agency, EASA will be able to enshrine the JAA requirements into EU law, removing what little flexibility the UK CAA now claims. It is likely that most licensing functions will be transferred to EASA HQ, probably in Belgium or the Netherlands, leaving the UK FCL as no more than a regional office, somewhat akin to a FAA FSDO. It is a little understood fact that plans are well advanced for this bureaucratic nightmare, which is due to take over responsibility for all EU states' flight crew licensing within a few years. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">As BEagle points out in another thread, EASA will probably not bother themselves with a PPL, leaving it in the capable hands of the CAA.... .. .Cheers. .EA. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 17:12: Message edited by: englishal ]</small>
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As a newbie to this site I would like to thank englishal for answering my questions. I have done some research myself, what I have found at the CAA web site is:. .<a href="http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SRG_FCL_ApprovedFTOs.pdf" target="_blank">web page</a> Organisations conducting CAA and JAR-FCL approved courses of flight and ground training. On page 5 of this document there is a subheading: JAR-FCL 1 PRIVATE PILOT LICENCE (AEROPLANE) Approved by the UK CAA for training for JAR-FCL 1 PPL (A) outside of a JAR member state. It only lists 3 European Flight Training, Orlando Flight Training and Flight Training College of Africa (Pty) Limited. I am only sure that 1 of these schools is in the U.S. How has my school and the others in the U.S. been conducting JAA PPL training ? I have also found on the JAA web site that one of it's goals was to harmonize with the FAA. To me these new regulations seem to be the opposite. I started this thread for help with some questions, now that it has become a debate and a chance for some of you to lecture me, I would like to respond. The FAA does give credit for instruction conducted by ICAO instructors toward FAA ratings no matter what country it was conducted in and always has. As for a JAA insrtuctor comming to the states to instruct, I am not allowed to go to the U.K. and instruct or work either. I do see a need for standardazation, I belive this can be done on the ground and was at my school 1/60 rule ect. I also thought there was a checks and balance system in place, it is called a skill test. Maybe the JAA/CAA should look at their examiners more closely if they have no faith in the training being conducted in the U.S. September 11 has hurt avation world wide, now is a time to unite not devide!!!
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> As BEagle points out in another thread, EASA will probably not bother themselves with a PPL, leaving it in the capable hands of the CAA.... . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">That is not the opinion of the member of the EASA implementation team that I spoke to last week.. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> How has my school and the others in the U.S. been conducting JAA PPL training ? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Not in accordance with the provisions of JAR-FCL1, which is why the French, among others, have been able to refuse to recognise UK issued JAA licences. If you read BEagle's last post you will see that the requirement for approval takes effect on 31 March 2002. After this date the UK CAA will accept applications for PPLs from students of only those non-JAA training organisations approved in accordance with JAR-NPA14.. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 17:57: Message edited by: rolling circle ]</small>
RC - originally Ear$eA's intention was not to bother with things at PPL level, but that seems to have changed of late. And guess what - they are even becoming interested in a harmonised NPPL..... I wouldn't want to see that - we should stick to the NPPL being a simple Day VFR-in-the-UK fly-for-fun licence and the JAR/FCL PPL being a first step towards professional licensing, IMC or Night flying.. .. .There is a JAA/FAA harmonisation group, but it's a long, long way from coming up with full licence reciprocity agreements!
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WWW, An EXTRA £15 an hour for instructors....in the real World?...I don't think so!!!!!!. .. .If that is the case I'm off on the next charter flight to see Richard!!. .. .Having re-read the posts on this thread, we've all missed something! That is that Capt Emerald has lost his job. For missing that, I for one apologise and wish you all the best mate. We have either all been there or close to it... good luck to you. I, as I'm sure we all do, hope that things work out.
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Rolling Circle,. .. .Correct me if I am wrong! Students can still go to USA, do their FAA PPL's. Since they will have less then 45 hours, take all the seven JAA PPL written exams and take the PPL skill test with JAA examiner. . .Wait for 5-6 weeks for their original FAA PPL to be issued and apply for conversion to JAA PPL. I do not see how JAA or EASA can stop the training that way!!. .Extra cost to student? One FAA written exam and one extra FAA flight test, may be $300-$350. The students walk away with two unrestricted licences.. .. .Am I wrong?
Before 31 Mar 02, you would probably be correct. After that, no - the flight training would only count if conducted by a FI who meets the revised requirements at a school which also meets the revised requirements. Hence such pilots with FAA PPLs would have to fly on that licence in the UK with the associated restrictions, including finding someone to conduct a biennial flight review if they haven't achieved the conversion requirements within the 2 years from the date of FAA PPL issue.. . . . <small>[ 21 March 2002, 07:05: Message edited by: BEagle ]</small>