Hour Building in Pairs
Join Date: May 2001
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Whats 'kidding yourself' about both logging PIC if one of you is under the hood? You're both playing an active role in control of the aircraft, and safety.
I would have thought a professional like you (?) would at least know the ins and outs of the rules and regs. Obviously you don't so it must be you who's kidding yourself that you're a professional !
I would have thought a professional like you (?) would at least know the ins and outs of the rules and regs. Obviously you don't so it must be you who's kidding yourself that you're a professional !
Join Date: Sep 2001
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SPITFIRE 747,
As i have posted before two pilots logging PIC time together is absolutely right,one of them logs dual given and PIC and the other one logs flight instruction given and PIC.Another way is practicing instrument approaches,the pilot on the controls is PIC and the safety pilot logs SIC.
Don't get discouraged by people like Tmagee,we do not want such 'professionals' in the industry too,we want understanding and relaxed people with respect for others.The ones that know all the regulations inside and out and know what is right or wrong in professionalism most probably have a lot of cash in the bank and if they really want to help the industry perhaps they could give us a loan?
As i have posted before two pilots logging PIC time together is absolutely right,one of them logs dual given and PIC and the other one logs flight instruction given and PIC.Another way is practicing instrument approaches,the pilot on the controls is PIC and the safety pilot logs SIC.
Don't get discouraged by people like Tmagee,we do not want such 'professionals' in the industry too,we want understanding and relaxed people with respect for others.The ones that know all the regulations inside and out and know what is right or wrong in professionalism most probably have a lot of cash in the bank and if they really want to help the industry perhaps they could give us a loan?
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Under old CAA Rules and now I am led to believe under JAR Rules you cannot both log PIC in a single crew Aircraft, and as I am sure your not going to be hour building in anything bigger than a light twin then you have your answer. However if you are using FAA Rules then double logging as mentioned, one under the hood one acting as safety pilot etc is allowed, But as I understood it when the rule as was pointed out to me by FCL before I went to the states to hour build, You could/cannot dual log PIC if you use those hours towards a UK/JAR Licence.
If I am wrong don't shoot me but as I said that is how I see the rules.
If I am wrong don't shoot me but as I said that is how I see the rules.
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FAR 61.51(e)(i) "A recreational, Private or Commercial pilot my log PIC time for that flight time during which that time the person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the person is rated"
But as you don't have an IR you are not rated to fly in IMC. So as soon as you enter IMC, you can only log Dual...
But as you don't have an IR you are not rated to fly in IMC. So as soon as you enter IMC, you can only log Dual...
See
this legal opinion from the faa for details or
a somewhat less authoritative, but much clearer version.
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Time logged trainning for an FAA IR can be logged as P1 under FAA regs. Show the CAA your log book and it will all be discounted. I know, it happened to me.
Horay for the CAA, we all think you are realy good.
[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: hellcat ]
Horay for the CAA, we all think you are realy good.
[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: hellcat ]
Join Date: May 2001
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WWTDHA...
The only reason I'm arguing this so strongly is that it came back to bite me. When getting ready for my IR checkride, going through my logbook and totalling up, I was told by the CFII and FAA FE that I had to go back and change every entry that had actual IT....I had logged the entire flight as PIC, when in actual fact, any time spent in actual IMC had to be logged as Dual only (according to them). It was a pain in the arse, and now my logbook has 'Whiteout' all over it!
I notice the extract from the link you posted, under FAA response:-
"In situations where actual IFR meteorological conditions exist, as in the case presented in the above example, the safety pilot or flight instructor, as the case may be, must be pilot in command, as that term is defined under 1.1 of the FAR. "
I must admit that after reading your postings, I'm now not 100% sure as there seems to be some ambiguity involved. The only thing I recommend is that people don't log PIC in IMC during their training as they might get a nast surprise when they get together with the examiner.....I'll write to the FAA and ask directly anyhow...
Cheers
EA
The only reason I'm arguing this so strongly is that it came back to bite me. When getting ready for my IR checkride, going through my logbook and totalling up, I was told by the CFII and FAA FE that I had to go back and change every entry that had actual IT....I had logged the entire flight as PIC, when in actual fact, any time spent in actual IMC had to be logged as Dual only (according to them). It was a pain in the arse, and now my logbook has 'Whiteout' all over it!
I notice the extract from the link you posted, under FAA response:-
"In situations where actual IFR meteorological conditions exist, as in the case presented in the above example, the safety pilot or flight instructor, as the case may be, must be pilot in command, as that term is defined under 1.1 of the FAR. "
I must admit that after reading your postings, I'm now not 100% sure as there seems to be some ambiguity involved. The only thing I recommend is that people don't log PIC in IMC during their training as they might get a nast surprise when they get together with the examiner.....I'll write to the FAA and ask directly anyhow...
Cheers
EA
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Englishal,
what your excperience actually illustrates is that there is little standardization among regions, and that DEs are not that well trained. I have a favorite DE (or three) and I call them if I've got this tyoe of question (since they will be the ones deciding whether to count it). I could just bring them the FAA chief council's opinion, but that really shouldn't be my job should it......
what your excperience actually illustrates is that there is little standardization among regions, and that DEs are not that well trained. I have a favorite DE (or three) and I call them if I've got this tyoe of question (since they will be the ones deciding whether to count it). I could just bring them the FAA chief council's opinion, but that really shouldn't be my job should it......
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I suspect that tmagee, in his eloquent fashion, is venting frustration at the time-wasters that he must encounter who inflate their hours by dubious means. Some of them must slip through the system and cause grief to the airlines once they're already in a job. We all remember the recent highly publicised case of the charter airline first-officer who was only caught out when he applied for a command. Whilst I have no problem with people clarifying which column to log the occasional few hours in where it may be unclear, I'm sure that I am not alone in despising those who do anything they can to fudge their experience. This totally undermines the position of the majority of us, who have fought hard for every hour logged. I frequently hear rumours about people visiting the States in pairs to hour-build, with the underlying intention of both logging time as P1. I hope they get caught before they beat me to a job, or worse...
LOST
LOST
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hEY hEY
This was suggested to me, i didn't know if it was allowed so i asked, good job this is anonymous, if not by the sound of it I would have been lynched ages ago
I think i will stick to loggin my own solo P1 on my own, then i know it is all correct.
Thanks for your input
This was suggested to me, i didn't know if it was allowed so i asked, good job this is anonymous, if not by the sound of it I would have been lynched ages ago
I think i will stick to loggin my own solo P1 on my own, then i know it is all correct.
Thanks for your input
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Spitfire
Keep it honest, and you won't go wrong. By all means head to the States if it's significantly cheaper, but just resist that temptation to add a few P1 hours here and there. It may take longer in the long run, but you will eventually get the job you want.
Good luck.
LOST
Keep it honest, and you won't go wrong. By all means head to the States if it's significantly cheaper, but just resist that temptation to add a few P1 hours here and there. It may take longer in the long run, but you will eventually get the job you want.
Good luck.
LOST
I fly with a mate from work who has his own aircraft. Now, I fly the aircraft whilst wearing a hood under IFR in VMC. Previously, we have agreed that matey sitting next to me, although he will not handle the controls, is PIC. He is responsible for seperation from other aircraft which may be VFR. Now, as far as I am concerned I am PIC and I do not care what he chooses to record in his logbook. He is, by the way, an American. So I am happy that I have acted as PIC in accordance with the spirit of the JAA regulations and he has recorded in accordance with FARs. Now, although under IFR I am still obliged to maintain seperation from aircraft operating under VFR so whilst wearing the hood I require another competent pilot in the cockpit.
I would not adocate two pilots with JAA licences hiring an aircraft between them but in the example I've outlined above I am comfortable with my logbook entries. If my American colleague wishes to log the time even though he never touches the controls then that is up to him.
I would not adocate two pilots with JAA licences hiring an aircraft between them but in the example I've outlined above I am comfortable with my logbook entries. If my American colleague wishes to log the time even though he never touches the controls then that is up to him.
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Any situation where you have more than one person logging P1 sounds like a big crock to me <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Fundamental logic says that you can't have two pilots-in-command of the same aircraft because the aircraft can only go in one direction at a time. Particularly the instructor-and-student situation, that's totally outrageous! At the end of the day if there's an engine failure, or something goes badly pear shaped, of course it's the instructor that's going to be taking control and making the command decisions about how to handle the situation - therefore he/she is the pilot in command of the flight. No one else.
It doesn't really matter who is physically poling the controls at the time - I've had a couple of times in my career when I've had to make a speedy return back to base due to unpleasant instrument indications / engine coughing and spluttering etc and I've allowed my students to keep flying the aircraft, even though I'm making the radio calls and directing my student as to where to fly the machine. I wouldn't for a second consider that my student was 'in command' of the flight though. Bear in mind that being the PiC is a burden of responsibility as well, as an instructor I couldn't envisage a situation where my student would stand up in court and be prosecuted for anything dodgy that happened in flight, if I 'happened to be' on board the aircraft and logging P1 at the time as well!!
It's interesting that there are a few airlines (back home in New Zealand at least) who don't recognize P1 time logged in the States for the purpose of total time, and to be honest it's things like this that make me understand the reason why.
It doesn't really matter who is physically poling the controls at the time - I've had a couple of times in my career when I've had to make a speedy return back to base due to unpleasant instrument indications / engine coughing and spluttering etc and I've allowed my students to keep flying the aircraft, even though I'm making the radio calls and directing my student as to where to fly the machine. I wouldn't for a second consider that my student was 'in command' of the flight though. Bear in mind that being the PiC is a burden of responsibility as well, as an instructor I couldn't envisage a situation where my student would stand up in court and be prosecuted for anything dodgy that happened in flight, if I 'happened to be' on board the aircraft and logging P1 at the time as well!!
It's interesting that there are a few airlines (back home in New Zealand at least) who don't recognize P1 time logged in the States for the purpose of total time, and to be honest it's things like this that make me understand the reason why.
