Hour Building in Pairs
Thread Starter
Hour Building in Pairs
Just a quick question for anyone
If i was to go and do some shared hour building with another hour builder, ie 2 PPLs, who can log what in their log book.
Is it both can log the time or can just the "flying" pilot in the left seat.
If i was to go and do some shared hour building with another hour builder, ie 2 PPLs, who can log what in their log book.
Is it both can log the time or can just the "flying" pilot in the left seat.
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I thought this was a question from a dyslexic pilot wanting to hour-build in France.
Anyway, why is dyslexia spelt in such a difficult way? Just rubbing salt into the wounds, I reckon.
Anyway, why is dyslexia spelt in such a difficult way? Just rubbing salt into the wounds, I reckon.
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Sorry Spitty must be catching, I also thought you had found an amazing new deal, France's best kept secret that was to challenge Florida as the hours building capital of the world. But nah...
I'll get me coat...
I'll get me coat...
The Bumblebee
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Spitfire,
It all depends on where you are time building and for what ratings?
Under the FAA regulations, all the flight time post PPL, even with an instructor, is P1. If you are flying under the hood, practicing instrument flying, and there is another safety pilot, both of you can log the time. Provided safety pilot signs your logbook and you sign his logbook. All the dual time towards your FAA IR is P1 under FAA rules, the only time you cannot log P1 is when you are in actual IMC conditions.
Under JAA/CAA rule, you cannot have two PIC's for a single pilot operation. All the dual time towards IR or IMC is still Pu/t.
So if you are in USA working towards FAA ratings you can log the time as P1 (ofcourse one of you under the hood) but these P1 hours cannot be counted towards your JAA CPL-IR.
Jatin
It all depends on where you are time building and for what ratings?
Under the FAA regulations, all the flight time post PPL, even with an instructor, is P1. If you are flying under the hood, practicing instrument flying, and there is another safety pilot, both of you can log the time. Provided safety pilot signs your logbook and you sign his logbook. All the dual time towards your FAA IR is P1 under FAA rules, the only time you cannot log P1 is when you are in actual IMC conditions.
Under JAA/CAA rule, you cannot have two PIC's for a single pilot operation. All the dual time towards IR or IMC is still Pu/t.
So if you are in USA working towards FAA ratings you can log the time as P1 (ofcourse one of you under the hood) but these P1 hours cannot be counted towards your JAA CPL-IR.
Jatin
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SPITFIRE 747,
I AM LOOKING FOR SB TO SHARE FLIGHT TIME TOGETHER TOO.I AM CURRENTLY A FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR IN THE US BUT I WOULDN'T MIND BUYING A FEW HOURS IN ORDER TO LOG TIME FAST.IF YOU'RE INTERESTED TO SHARE TIME FAST YOU CAN E-MAIL ME AT: [email protected]
I KNOW FOR SURE THAT WE CAN SHARE THE COST AND LOG THE WHOLE FLIGHT TIME BOTH OF US.
I AM LOOKING FOR SB TO SHARE FLIGHT TIME TOGETHER TOO.I AM CURRENTLY A FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR IN THE US BUT I WOULDN'T MIND BUYING A FEW HOURS IN ORDER TO LOG TIME FAST.IF YOU'RE INTERESTED TO SHARE TIME FAST YOU CAN E-MAIL ME AT: [email protected]
I KNOW FOR SURE THAT WE CAN SHARE THE COST AND LOG THE WHOLE FLIGHT TIME BOTH OF US.
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I did the FAA flight instructor thing and I'm now sitting on 1300 hours. Yes, I need to convert to JAR, however, the instrument experience is valuable, especially when you are able to pick up the odd x-country ferry flight. I've thoroughly enjoyed flying in the U.S.
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Are there any issues regarding being rated for the left or right seat - in the US?
In my country, you have to be certified to fly from the right seat to log any time. Otherwise, with two students flying togther, the only time the right student may take the controls, is when the PF takes a drink of water, or the likes. Common, but also illegal of course.
We also have problems with students who want to share multi-instrument time. Even when one student gets rated to fly from the right seat, intending to log 2IC time, the flight school's SOPs may not permit any logging of 2IC time if one pilot is not an instructor.
In my country, you have to be certified to fly from the right seat to log any time. Otherwise, with two students flying togther, the only time the right student may take the controls, is when the PF takes a drink of water, or the likes. Common, but also illegal of course.
We also have problems with students who want to share multi-instrument time. Even when one student gets rated to fly from the right seat, intending to log 2IC time, the flight school's SOPs may not permit any logging of 2IC time if one pilot is not an instructor.
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In the US you can both log PIC when practicing Instrument flying, one under the hood and one safety pilot. But you both have to be rated on the type of aircraft. For example, if you have no 'night rating' and you're flying under the hood with a safety pilot who is night rated, at night, then technically you cannot claim PIC for the flight! The only other time you cannot log PIC in the states is when training for a diffent type of A/C (ie. From SEL to MEL) until you have passed the check ride. Also note that one of you has to be under the hood for both to claim PIC.....(edited to add this bit in)
As far as flying from the right seat goes....in the US you can fly from either seat, no problem. Trouble is that if you have an accident and you're flying from the right seat, the insurance company may get a bit funny about it.
By the way, if anyone wants to do some hour building in California early next year, I'd be up for it, share time, instrument practice etc....
Cheers
EA
[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: englishal ]
As far as flying from the right seat goes....in the US you can fly from either seat, no problem. Trouble is that if you have an accident and you're flying from the right seat, the insurance company may get a bit funny about it.
By the way, if anyone wants to do some hour building in California early next year, I'd be up for it, share time, instrument practice etc....
Cheers
EA
[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: englishal ]
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SPITFIRE747,
GREASER IS RIGHT,WE CAN BOTH LOG PIC BY FLYING TOGETHER AND I LOG IT AS PIC AND INSTRUCTION GIVEN AND YOU LOG IT AS PIC AND DUAL.THE OTHER WAY IS WE DO PRACTICE APPROACH,FOR EXAMPLE ONE OF US IS UNDER THE HOOD AND LOGS PIC AND THE OTHER ONE IS SECOND IN COMMAND.RIGHT NOW I'M IN NEW YORK AND I'M THINKING TO GO TO FLORIDA AROUND MARCH,IF YOU'RE INTERESTED WE CAN GET A GOOD DEAL THERE AND FLY TOGETHER.
TAKE CARE
NIKOS
GREASER IS RIGHT,WE CAN BOTH LOG PIC BY FLYING TOGETHER AND I LOG IT AS PIC AND INSTRUCTION GIVEN AND YOU LOG IT AS PIC AND DUAL.THE OTHER WAY IS WE DO PRACTICE APPROACH,FOR EXAMPLE ONE OF US IS UNDER THE HOOD AND LOGS PIC AND THE OTHER ONE IS SECOND IN COMMAND.RIGHT NOW I'M IN NEW YORK AND I'M THINKING TO GO TO FLORIDA AROUND MARCH,IF YOU'RE INTERESTED WE CAN GET A GOOD DEAL THERE AND FLY TOGETHER.
TAKE CARE
NIKOS
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In the US you can both log PIC when practicing Instrument flying, one under the hood and one safety pilot. But you both have to be rated on the type of aircraft. For example, if you have no 'night rating' and you're flying under the hood with a safety pilot who is night rated, at night, then technically you cannot claim PIC for the flight!
--they allow loging as PIC when [1.i] "sole manipulator of the controls" and when rated [in category and class]. There is no mention of flight conditions.
Thus a PP without an IR can log PIC when sole manipulator in IMC, a PP without a complex or HP endorsement can log PIC when flying a complex/HP plane, and a brit whose license is restricted to day only can log nighttime (he is rated in category and class, but not the flight conditions).
what these people cannot do is ACT as PIC. There must be an appropriately rated person who can act as PIC and who is legally responsible for the flight.
Now--can that person acting as PIC (who is a required crew member) also log PIC? It depends--The FARS allow the person acting as PIC to log it only if
[1(iii)] more that one pilot is required under the type certificate or under the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
thus in the simulated instrument example, YES, since it requires a pilot and a safety pilot. In the night example [without the hood] no, since night flying does not require 2 pilots. In the night example with the hood, the fact that the person who is sole manipulator is not legally allowed to ACT as PIC should not prevent him from logging it under [1(i)].
-m
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FAR 61.51(e)(i) "A recreational, Private or Commercial pilot my log PIC time for that flight time during which that time the person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the person is rated"
But as you don't have an IR you are not rated to fly in IMC. So as soon as you enter IMC, you can only log Dual...
(assume basic SEL PPL)....
You can log PIC in a Complex while under instruction as a Complex is a SEL aircraft, and you are rated on a SEL.
You cannot log PIC in a Twin as you are not rated for a twin.
You can log PIC in a high performance, so long as its SEL which you're rated for
You cannot even fly at night as a Brit with a JAA PPL without night rating, unless you are signed off as a Student, then you can log PIC. With an instructor beside you you can only log dual.
This is how it was explained to me by an FAA instructor and Examiner when training for my IR in SOCAL.
Cheers
EA
[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: englishal ]
But as you don't have an IR you are not rated to fly in IMC. So as soon as you enter IMC, you can only log Dual...
(assume basic SEL PPL)....
You can log PIC in a Complex while under instruction as a Complex is a SEL aircraft, and you are rated on a SEL.
You cannot log PIC in a Twin as you are not rated for a twin.
You can log PIC in a high performance, so long as its SEL which you're rated for
You cannot even fly at night as a Brit with a JAA PPL without night rating, unless you are signed off as a Student, then you can log PIC. With an instructor beside you you can only log dual.
Also, any limitations that appear on the foreign pilot certificate are limitations that apply to the U.S. certificate that is obtained under FAR 61.75. For example, some foreign aviation authorities do not allow night flying. That means a U.S. certificate issued on the basis of that certificate could not be used at night in the U.S.
Cheers
EA
[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: englishal ]
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Anyone seeking to double log PIC is kidding themselves. You are not the kind of person we want in the industry. If someone fronts up on the other side of my desk looking for a job with that unprofessional attitude you would be straight out the door and we would seek prosecution through the authority. We need professionals in this business not schoolboys wet behind the ears! Get off your arse and earn the hours on your own!
Might have guessed - HR Manager - contradiction in terms if ever there was one.
Thread Starter
TMAGEE
thankyou so very much for your positive and well received comment to my original post. Tell me which airline company you are employed by, so i will know not to apply !!
Just so you know i am not a pthetic wet behind the ears school boy, i am an educated person trying to achieve my dream the best way i can afford to!!
thankyou so very much for your positive and well received comment to my original post. Tell me which airline company you are employed by, so i will know not to apply !!
Just so you know i am not a pthetic wet behind the ears school boy, i am an educated person trying to achieve my dream the best way i can afford to!!