alternatives for low houred pilots
Not quite.
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MAX - those low hour pilots that have landed jet jobs on full pay straight away without having to pay for type ratings - what percentage of the people who qualified in the last 2 years with fATPL's do you think that applies to? Not a whole lot.
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The fact is that the pilot employment scene is a market place. The airlines are the major buyers, the FTOs are the smart(ish) shops, selling 'guaranteed' product, and the self-sponsored wannabes are the equivalent of the no-brand stuff on the market stalls. At a time when there aren't many buyers, the FTOs have a considerable advantage when it comes to placing new pilots, especially when (as with the CTC schemes) they offer a type-rated, line trained pilot at a fixed price.
However, as far as I know none of the airlines have declared any intention to recruit exclusivly through these schemes, so there are and will continue to be opportunities for self-sponsored pilots. The trick is to be in the right place at the right time, and a lot of luck is involved! As has been discussed here many times before, there are a host of methods of apparently making yourself more attractive to an airline, but for every example of how a particular method has worked, there's always a counter from someone who's tried it in vain! The best advice seems to be: keep current, keep sending the CVs (and make sure they're acceptable), and try and get an inside contact at your target airline. Lastly, think positive! It's amazing how much benefit a positive attitude can have, from just getting through the average day to succeeding at interview.
Scroggs
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However, as far as I know none of the airlines have declared any intention to recruit exclusivly through these schemes, so there are and will continue to be opportunities for self-sponsored pilots. The trick is to be in the right place at the right time, and a lot of luck is involved! As has been discussed here many times before, there are a host of methods of apparently making yourself more attractive to an airline, but for every example of how a particular method has worked, there's always a counter from someone who's tried it in vain! The best advice seems to be: keep current, keep sending the CVs (and make sure they're acceptable), and try and get an inside contact at your target airline. Lastly, think positive! It's amazing how much benefit a positive attitude can have, from just getting through the average day to succeeding at interview.
Scroggs
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Grim Sleeper
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Re: CTC
I don't think CTC cadets prevent low houred pilots getting fully paid jobs with major airlines. That is a very naive viewpoint.
Airlines are two faced, tight-fisted money-making machines and they would sell their own grandmothers to slavers if it saved them a couple of bob. When the market is favourable to the costs of training and recruitment (and your average low hours pilot needs a lot of training, whether you think so or not) then low hours pilots will be back on the menu for the airlines to devour.
Until then, it's the perceived training risk of gambling upward of £15000 + line training etc on an untested green pilot that's keeping you out of a job. Cadets just lessen the burden of risk while saving money on training - just ask easyJet who binned some of them last Autumn.....
I don't think CTC cadets prevent low houred pilots getting fully paid jobs with major airlines. That is a very naive viewpoint.
Airlines are two faced, tight-fisted money-making machines and they would sell their own grandmothers to slavers if it saved them a couple of bob. When the market is favourable to the costs of training and recruitment (and your average low hours pilot needs a lot of training, whether you think so or not) then low hours pilots will be back on the menu for the airlines to devour.
Until then, it's the perceived training risk of gambling upward of £15000 + line training etc on an untested green pilot that's keeping you out of a job. Cadets just lessen the burden of risk while saving money on training - just ask easyJet who binned some of them last Autumn.....
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Not a lot.
Lemon- You are right. Next to sweet f*ck all move straight into any job at all in fact. Just call me old fashioned as I try to keep the positive attitude and push the right buttons rather than fork out money I dont have. I didnt land my current job by just sending cv's and there is a lot to be said for showing your face around.
As Ive said before, myself and some very good friends, have been replaced by pilots who were on schemes because they were cheaper. Its not fair but thats business, I agree. It just annoys me when I see the guy/gal with their FATPL, hoovering a PA31 and sweeping the hangar, get overlooked because he doesnt have a more expendable cash flow. It is not a level playing field and never will be no matter.
Well done BPM I know how hard youve worked to get your foot in the door.
Now out of interest Lemon, did you start flying a 757 8 months ago?????
MAX
As Ive said before, myself and some very good friends, have been replaced by pilots who were on schemes because they were cheaper. Its not fair but thats business, I agree. It just annoys me when I see the guy/gal with their FATPL, hoovering a PA31 and sweeping the hangar, get overlooked because he doesnt have a more expendable cash flow. It is not a level playing field and never will be no matter.
Well done BPM I know how hard youve worked to get your foot in the door.
Now out of interest Lemon, did you start flying a 757 8 months ago?????
MAX
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MAX - I by no means have an expendable cash flow so maybe tell your friend next time you see him sweeping the hangar to take out a loan and apply to CTC or to pay for the type rating that any other airline will likely require. I know you got a jet job as a low hour pilot without having to go this route but it's seldom it happens.
And no I didn't start flying a 757 eight months ago - I didn't know this was a "mine's bigger than yours" competition. I'm on the 737-700.
And no I didn't start flying a 757 eight months ago - I didn't know this was a "mine's bigger than yours" competition. I'm on the 737-700.
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tell your friend next time you see him sweeping the hangar to take out a loan and apply to CTC or to pay for the type rating that any other airline will likely require
Tell that to the vast majority of people browsing this site with debts up to their ears, no job but only the hope that their willingness to break in the industry will be some day rewarded.No doubt one day you'll face the CTC competition yourself but even less doubt you ll have forgotten all those wise words of yours.
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Apologies - comment was a bit harsh. I do think, however, in these times if you want a jet job specifically as a low hour pilot then you have to expect to go down the CTC route or be prepared to pay for some amount of the type training. I do know there are many people out there with debts up to their ears but when you compare £4,500 (the cost of doing CTC's JOC course) to the total cost of ATPL training in the first place, it's not that much.
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Like lemon says its not a huge amount compared to the rest of the training. Its also similar to a FI course.
As scroggs says it comes down to market forces. I have worked in manufacturing for 10 years and it is so so true. People can complain all they like about the competition and how unfair it all is, BUT unless they adapt to the current market requirements any aviation ambitions will be resigned to the history books.
That's just how it is. I live up North and I have seen a lot of trouble 't mill. The companies that complained about the competion from the far east have now all gone to the wall. Those that nuckled down and adapted to the market survived. It's not rocket science.
Then again you could always become a doctor, spend 7 years training. Get student loans to support you all the way through training etc, etc.
I bet the student doctors wish they had CAP371
As scroggs says it comes down to market forces. I have worked in manufacturing for 10 years and it is so so true. People can complain all they like about the competition and how unfair it all is, BUT unless they adapt to the current market requirements any aviation ambitions will be resigned to the history books.
That's just how it is. I live up North and I have seen a lot of trouble 't mill. The companies that complained about the competion from the far east have now all gone to the wall. Those that nuckled down and adapted to the market survived. It's not rocket science.
Then again you could always become a doctor, spend 7 years training. Get student loans to support you all the way through training etc, etc.
I bet the student doctors wish they had CAP371
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Lemon- You misunderstood my question about the 757. I was merely curious if you were one of my CTC replacements. Thats all.
My A/C is hung like a duck compared to yours.
All the best.
MAX
My A/C is hung like a duck compared to yours.
All the best.
MAX
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I left OATS in the summer of 2001, sent off 120 cv's to everyone operating under JAR. Loads of rejection letters and one selection day with Britannia. After going through selection for three months got the job starting in November. 9/11 happend, made redundant, worked for transair pilot shop which made me go crackers. Sent my CV out again, no replies. Called CTC, went through selection, went into the hold pool for three days and got a call asking me whether I could start a type rating in two days time. Transair luckily let me go. Two weeks later, interview with EZY. One year later call from Britannia offering my job back which I was unable to take due to personal circumstances. They will however keep me on file for next year.
Persistance pays off. If you want it, you will get the job. Don't put off, the sending out of your cv until the market has turned around. Put yourself in the position of the co's HR dept, if there were two people to choose from with same exp etc, one badgered you for the job and one sent his cv in once, which one would you choose? The keen one?!
The thing that I am trying to say, do not leave any stone unturned. Apply to CTC, it is free! I know a lot of people slag it off, but if they were in your position, just out of flight school with your loans etc, they would jump at he chance. I said to myself that I would work for nothing to get my foot in the door as long as I received a proper salary after I had proved myself.
If you need any advice [email protected]
Persistance pays off. If you want it, you will get the job. Don't put off, the sending out of your cv until the market has turned around. Put yourself in the position of the co's HR dept, if there were two people to choose from with same exp etc, one badgered you for the job and one sent his cv in once, which one would you choose? The keen one?!
The thing that I am trying to say, do not leave any stone unturned. Apply to CTC, it is free! I know a lot of people slag it off, but if they were in your position, just out of flight school with your loans etc, they would jump at he chance. I said to myself that I would work for nothing to get my foot in the door as long as I received a proper salary after I had proved myself.
If you need any advice [email protected]
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oops - sorry max
Like CSDU I got my job through CTC with EZY a couple of months after him and I think that it is definitely an option that should be explored. As CS says, it's free to apply.
Like CSDU I got my job through CTC with EZY a couple of months after him and I think that it is definitely an option that should be explored. As CS says, it's free to apply.
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What sort of age profile is CTC looking for in candidates for this scheme? Officially it's up to 34 yrs, but I got the impression that CTC/Easy don't really like anyone older than 30.
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The age limits for the CTC sponsorship scheme are 26 for EZ, and 27 for JMC. I think it's also 26 for those that CTC sponsor themselves, but you'd best check their website - see their banner ad here on Pprune.
Scroggs
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Scroggs
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Tubbs - for the ATP scheme CTC have an official age limit of 34 but they have made exceptions for a year or 2 older. I know one guy who did the course at 35 and was employed by easyjet a month later.
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Re: Age for CTC
I was well past 30 when I was selected to be a CTC cadet and i got the job at the end of it. Don't believe the tripe people trot out to put you off trying - it is a tough thing to get through, but obviously it is worth it.
How else can you fast track from fATPL, 200 or so hours straight into a jet job? As CSD says, it's free until phase 4, why not go for it?
I was well past 30 when I was selected to be a CTC cadet and i got the job at the end of it. Don't believe the tripe people trot out to put you off trying - it is a tough thing to get through, but obviously it is worth it.
How else can you fast track from fATPL, 200 or so hours straight into a jet job? As CSD says, it's free until phase 4, why not go for it?
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why not? ....I'll tell you why - the bloody application form! Under normal circumstances I would expect a substantial advance for the Tubbs autobiography.
Ah well, must find my photocopy from the BA CEP application I filled in 5 years ago...
Ta for the comments
XX
Ah well, must find my photocopy from the BA CEP application I filled in 5 years ago...
Ta for the comments
XX
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Personally, i think a lot of the comments on this thread are really sad. I'm young and single and do not have any debts but there are a lot of 34 yr olds with 3 kids who are trying to break into this industry. Any kind of extra payment is a very hard for them.
We can try to sugarcoat this CTC program but the bottomline is that it is still paying for a job, which is totally pathetic. Those students with a low financial standing will be at a disadvantage. And these students are supposed to be the reason these schemes where set up in the 1st place.
"sponsorships" in the aviation industry are actually loans and nothing different. i have friends who are currently being sponsored by IT companies(despite the financial crunch in that sector) and they dont have to pay anything. imagine if you go a £40k a yr job with a bank and then theytold you to pay £2k for an induction and then you'll be paid half pay for your 6 mth probationary period: i don't see any differnence b/w this and airline sponsorchips and schemes.
as far as i see it the results of such schemes e.g. CTC are as follows:
1. The cost of flight training will increase.
2. Students wih a better financial background will now have an even greater chance of breaking into the industry
3. Pilot salaries will go down
The only time i will pay an airline is when i buy a ticket and i hope more and more wannabes will take the same view.
By the way LEMON, you might think u r out of the woods now you've got your jet job but what this stuff i keep hearing about EZY pilots getting shafted and a proposed strike?
As for me i'm setting my sights outside the UK there r lots of jobs out there that dont required a down payment.
We can try to sugarcoat this CTC program but the bottomline is that it is still paying for a job, which is totally pathetic. Those students with a low financial standing will be at a disadvantage. And these students are supposed to be the reason these schemes where set up in the 1st place.
"sponsorships" in the aviation industry are actually loans and nothing different. i have friends who are currently being sponsored by IT companies(despite the financial crunch in that sector) and they dont have to pay anything. imagine if you go a £40k a yr job with a bank and then theytold you to pay £2k for an induction and then you'll be paid half pay for your 6 mth probationary period: i don't see any differnence b/w this and airline sponsorchips and schemes.
as far as i see it the results of such schemes e.g. CTC are as follows:
1. The cost of flight training will increase.
2. Students wih a better financial background will now have an even greater chance of breaking into the industry
3. Pilot salaries will go down
The only time i will pay an airline is when i buy a ticket and i hope more and more wannabes will take the same view.
By the way LEMON, you might think u r out of the woods now you've got your jet job but what this stuff i keep hearing about EZY pilots getting shafted and a proposed strike?
As for me i'm setting my sights outside the UK there r lots of jobs out there that dont required a down payment.