Update to Visa Requirements for Flight Training in the USA
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Update to Visa Requirements for Flight Training in the USA
The interpretation of the legislation concerning entry into the USA under the Visa Waiver Scheme as given by Naples Air Center Inc appears incorrect for the following activities:
1. If you are going to train for the FAA Private Pilot Licence
2. If you wish to convert your JAA licence to the FAA Private Pilot Licence
Both of the above activities are non-vocational or recreational training activities leading to a non-vocational licence. Both activities can, therefore, be carried out during a vacation in the USA after entry by the Visa Waiver Scheme, the B1 visa, or the B2 visa.
The Visa Legislation
The Visa Waiver Scheme allows visits to the USA for vacational or business purposes. Vacational purposes include touring the country by aircraft, car, horseback, or by any other means of transportation. Vacational purposes also include training for sports such as flying, sailing, parachuting, or any other recreational activity. The Visa Waiver Scheme makes no mention of, and does not exclude any recreational activity such as flying in its legislation.
(Reference:http://www.ins.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/i...ment-frame.htm )
Student Visas such as the F-1, M-1, J-1 visas are required for academic studies or vocational training. Vocational training includes commercial flight training courses. Non-vocational or recreational training activities are specifically excluded from the Student Visa legislation.
(Reference http://www.ins.gov/graphics/services.../StudVisas.htm )
Our Experience
We brief our customers before they leave for the US as follows:
1. to provide the accommodation address of the flying school
2. to declare that the purpose of the visit is a vacation
3. to state that during the vacation they will be engaged in non-vocational flight training
4. to answer all questions asked by the immigration officers truthfully.
After the terrorist attack of 9th September 2001 the immigration authorities contacted our school and requested that our customers are provided with documentation including details of the flying school and the courses offered. This has been effected and is currently accepted by the immigration authorities at all ports of entry used by our customers.
Since 9th September we have had many customers from all over Europe who have entered using the Visa Waiver Scheme. Most enter the US after routine questions; some are questioned further and are required to show the school’s documentation. A few are subsequently interviewed and the school is contacted so that the purpose of the visit can be verified.
None of our customers have been refused entry to date
Conclusion
The above information has been carefully verified and checked by our lawyer who practices immigration law in the USA. However, the content of this response is also an interpretation, albeit informed interpretation. As there is no appeal against entry refusal, it is unlikely that any interpretation of this legislation will be tested by a court case.
Entry into the USA cannot be guaranteed whether you are using the Visa Waiver Scheme or any other visa. Individuals have been refused entry in the past and will undoubtably be refused entry in the future. We are confident that our customers will not be refused entry solely because they are attending our flight training courses and this is verified by our ongoing success rate.
For further details on this subject, please contact me in the UK by telephone on 01992 577707 / 07770 843678 or by email: [email protected].
Tony Cornish, President
Stapleford (USA) Inc.
Tulsa
Oklahoma 74132
USA
1. If you are going to train for the FAA Private Pilot Licence
2. If you wish to convert your JAA licence to the FAA Private Pilot Licence
Both of the above activities are non-vocational or recreational training activities leading to a non-vocational licence. Both activities can, therefore, be carried out during a vacation in the USA after entry by the Visa Waiver Scheme, the B1 visa, or the B2 visa.
The Visa Legislation
The Visa Waiver Scheme allows visits to the USA for vacational or business purposes. Vacational purposes include touring the country by aircraft, car, horseback, or by any other means of transportation. Vacational purposes also include training for sports such as flying, sailing, parachuting, or any other recreational activity. The Visa Waiver Scheme makes no mention of, and does not exclude any recreational activity such as flying in its legislation.
(Reference:http://www.ins.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/i...ment-frame.htm )
Student Visas such as the F-1, M-1, J-1 visas are required for academic studies or vocational training. Vocational training includes commercial flight training courses. Non-vocational or recreational training activities are specifically excluded from the Student Visa legislation.
(Reference http://www.ins.gov/graphics/services.../StudVisas.htm )
Our Experience
We brief our customers before they leave for the US as follows:
1. to provide the accommodation address of the flying school
2. to declare that the purpose of the visit is a vacation
3. to state that during the vacation they will be engaged in non-vocational flight training
4. to answer all questions asked by the immigration officers truthfully.
After the terrorist attack of 9th September 2001 the immigration authorities contacted our school and requested that our customers are provided with documentation including details of the flying school and the courses offered. This has been effected and is currently accepted by the immigration authorities at all ports of entry used by our customers.
Since 9th September we have had many customers from all over Europe who have entered using the Visa Waiver Scheme. Most enter the US after routine questions; some are questioned further and are required to show the school’s documentation. A few are subsequently interviewed and the school is contacted so that the purpose of the visit can be verified.
None of our customers have been refused entry to date
Conclusion
The above information has been carefully verified and checked by our lawyer who practices immigration law in the USA. However, the content of this response is also an interpretation, albeit informed interpretation. As there is no appeal against entry refusal, it is unlikely that any interpretation of this legislation will be tested by a court case.
Entry into the USA cannot be guaranteed whether you are using the Visa Waiver Scheme or any other visa. Individuals have been refused entry in the past and will undoubtably be refused entry in the future. We are confident that our customers will not be refused entry solely because they are attending our flight training courses and this is verified by our ongoing success rate.
For further details on this subject, please contact me in the UK by telephone on 01992 577707 / 07770 843678 or by email: [email protected].
Tony Cornish, President
Stapleford (USA) Inc.
Tulsa
Oklahoma 74132
USA
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Stapleford (USA) is a flight school and is located at Richard L Jones Jnr (Riverside) Airport, 203 Cessna Drive, Tulsa. Oklahoma 74132 tel 918 298 3164.
My interpretation is that if an instrument rating is added to a PPL for private flying only, then the training is non-vocational.
However unlike my original posting, this interpretation has not been verified by my lawyer. We will check this out if necessary.
Tony Cornish
My interpretation is that if an instrument rating is added to a PPL for private flying only, then the training is non-vocational.
However unlike my original posting, this interpretation has not been verified by my lawyer. We will check this out if necessary.
Tony Cornish
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got 99% of my flight time from RVS - never heard of stapleford
flew with spartan & christiansen - you the guys in the small building between spartan & christiansen (lease-a-plane)?
could you give me a quick qoute on your prices? you guys part 61 or 141?
flew with spartan & christiansen - you the guys in the small building between spartan & christiansen (lease-a-plane)?
could you give me a quick qoute on your prices? you guys part 61 or 141?
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Stapleford (USA) began trading 2 years ago in the larger of the 2 buildings between Christiansen's and Spartan. Perhaps you haven't heard of us because we primarily recruit customers from Europe - hence our interest in the visa situation- but we welcome local customers as well.
We expect to get our FAA Part 141 approval by the end of this month
I'll send you a private message regarding your other query shortly.
Tony Cornish
We expect to get our FAA Part 141 approval by the end of this month
I'll send you a private message regarding your other query shortly.
Tony Cornish
The Oracle
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Tony,
I just finished talking to Homeland Security and they stated:
"You can check on the INS Website that the last revision to the immigration rules was April, 2002."
The rules have not changed and you are required to be on a Visa for PPL Flight Training.
Could you please post any correspondence you have received from either Homeland Security, INS or the U.S. Department of State that says students are not required to be on an F-1/M-1/J-1 for PPL Flight Training.
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
I just finished talking to Homeland Security and they stated:
"You can check on the INS Website that the last revision to the immigration rules was April, 2002."
The rules have not changed and you are required to be on a Visa for PPL Flight Training.
Could you please post any correspondence you have received from either Homeland Security, INS or the U.S. Department of State that says students are not required to be on an F-1/M-1/J-1 for PPL Flight Training.
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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always trust your lawyer...
I agree with the interpretation above, and think the Naples sticky post should be replaced with this one.
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but the Homeland Security Dep't is only just being set up, they don't take over the INS until later this year, and Asa Hutchinson, Under-Secretary-designate for Border Security (who I'll be meeting in a fortnight, coincidently!), hasn't even been confirmed yet, so how can they be an authority on visa waivers?
The linked INS pages on the sticky thread appear to have been removed, but in anycase refer to changing from B1/2 status to student status - if you enter on a visa waiver you're W status so that ruling is irrelevant. The guidance now on the INS site and at the US Embassy in the UK, dated June, (Bus/Pleasure), states solely that you are eligible for the waiver provided you're from one of the low-risk countries and can demonstrate that you are not an intending immigrant (ie short stay, business or pleasure, have a home to return to), and not proposing "full-time study" (PPL training is part-time even if you interpret it to be study!).
Bear in mind that the visa waiver program has been recognised in recent congressional debate as not posing a threat to the security interests of the US, because obviously it only applies to low-risk visitors, and the economic benefits are substantial. We also have pilot-friendly people in key committee positions in congress, and Asa Hutchinson has in his previous roles been a critic of INS heavy handedness.
It's still the case, as always, that you can be denied entry at the whim of the INS, if they think you are a security risk or likely to stay too long, and with no right to appeal, but there are clear political signs of the non-immigrant admissions regime relaxing again over time.
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but the Homeland Security Dep't is only just being set up, they don't take over the INS until later this year, and Asa Hutchinson, Under-Secretary-designate for Border Security (who I'll be meeting in a fortnight, coincidently!), hasn't even been confirmed yet, so how can they be an authority on visa waivers?
The linked INS pages on the sticky thread appear to have been removed, but in anycase refer to changing from B1/2 status to student status - if you enter on a visa waiver you're W status so that ruling is irrelevant. The guidance now on the INS site and at the US Embassy in the UK, dated June, (Bus/Pleasure), states solely that you are eligible for the waiver provided you're from one of the low-risk countries and can demonstrate that you are not an intending immigrant (ie short stay, business or pleasure, have a home to return to), and not proposing "full-time study" (PPL training is part-time even if you interpret it to be study!).
Bear in mind that the visa waiver program has been recognised in recent congressional debate as not posing a threat to the security interests of the US, because obviously it only applies to low-risk visitors, and the economic benefits are substantial. We also have pilot-friendly people in key committee positions in congress, and Asa Hutchinson has in his previous roles been a critic of INS heavy handedness.
It's still the case, as always, that you can be denied entry at the whim of the INS, if they think you are a security risk or likely to stay too long, and with no right to appeal, but there are clear political signs of the non-immigrant admissions regime relaxing again over time.
Last edited by carb; 14th Jan 2003 at 00:42.
The Oracle
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Gentlemen,
You can debate this issue and pass your views, but you are NOT the law which is the reason the following disclaimer was posted by Tony:
When I say I checked with Homeland Security, that means; If I read anything here that is different to what they have informed me in the past, I bring it to their attention. They then go directly to INS and the U.S. Department of State in Washington, D.C. and report back the official position of those two agencies on that matter. I then post it here.
Here is the INS Law right from CFR 8:
Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant Prior to Pursuing a Course of Study
Here are the changes that were added into the CFR 8:
PART 214--NONIMMIGRANT CLASSES
214.2 Special requirements for admission, extension and maintenance of status.
PART 248--CHANGE OF NONIMMIGRANT CLASSIFICATION
248.1 Eligibility.
To anyone looking to come to the U.S.A. for Flight Training, do NOT listen to what I say, Tony says or Carb or anyone else. Go to the source, The U.S. Embassy in your country. They will tell you exactly what you will need to come to the U.S.A. for training.
Remember this is your life and future career, make sure you are doing everything legally. If you are stopped and sent home, you are the one that is hurt by it, not Tony or Carb.
Be Legal,
Richard
You can debate this issue and pass your views, but you are NOT the law which is the reason the following disclaimer was posted by Tony:
However, the content of this response is also an interpretation, albeit informed interpretation.
Here is the INS Law right from CFR 8:
Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant Prior to Pursuing a Course of Study
The Service is eliminating the ability of an alien admitted to the United States as a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant to begin attending classes without first applying to the Service, and obtaining the Service's prior approval, for a change of nonimmigrant status to that of an F or M nonimmigrant student. This rule expressly prohibits a B nonimmigrant from enrolling in a course of study or taking other actions inconsistent with B nonimmigrant status unless and until the Service has approved the B nonimmigrant's change to an appropriate student nonimmigrant status.
The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, highlight the need of the Service to maintain greater control over the ability of an alien to change nonimmigrant status once the alien has been admitted to the United States. This interim rule will allow the Service to fully review any request from a B nonimmigrant to change nonimmigrant status to that of full-time student before allowing the alien to enroll in a Service-approved school. The elimination of the ability of a B nonimmigrant to begin classes before receiving the Service's approval of the change of nonimmigrant status is also consistent with the Act's requirement in section 101(a)(15)(B) that a B nonimmigrant not be a person coming to the United States for the purpose of study.
B nonimmigrants generally enter the United States for purposes of tourism or for a business trip. Pursuing a course of study is inconsistent with these purposes, and thus inconsistent with B status.
PART 214--NONIMMIGRANT CLASSES
214.2 Special requirements for admission, extension and maintenance of status.
(7) Enrollment in a course of study prohibited. An alien who is admitted as, or changes status to, a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002, or who files a request to extend the period of authorized stay in B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant status on or after such date, violates the conditions of his or her B-1 or B-2 status if the alien enrolls in a course of study. Such an alien who desires to enroll in a course of study must either obtain an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant visa from a consular officer abroad and seek readmission to the United States, or apply for and obtain a change of status under section 248 of the Act and 8 CFR part 248. The alien may not enroll in the course of study until the Service has admitted the alien as an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant or has approved the alien's application under part 248 of this chapter and changed the alien's status to that of an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant.
PART 248--CHANGE OF NONIMMIGRANT CLASSIFICATION
248.1 Eligibility.
(c) Change of nonimmigrant classification to that of a nonimmigrant student.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (c)(3) of this section, a nonimmigrant applying for a change of classification as an F-1 or M-1 student is not considered ineligible for such a change solely because the applicant may have started attendance at school before the application was submitted. The district director or service center director shall deny an application for a change to classification as an M-1 student if the applicant intends to pursue the course of study solely in order to qualify for a subsequent change of nonimmigrant classification to that of an alien temporary worker under section 101(a)(15)(H) of the Act. Furthermore, an alien may not change from classification as an M-1 student to that of an F-1 student.
(2) [Reserved]
(3) A nonimmigrant who is admitted as, or changes status to, a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002, or who files a request to extend the period of authorized stay as a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant on or after such date, may not pursue a course of study at an approved school unless the Service has approved his or her application for change of status to a classification as an F-1 or M-1 student. The district director or service center director will deny the change of status if the B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant enrolled in a course of study before filing the application for change of status or while the application is pending before the Service.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (c)(3) of this section, a nonimmigrant applying for a change of classification as an F-1 or M-1 student is not considered ineligible for such a change solely because the applicant may have started attendance at school before the application was submitted. The district director or service center director shall deny an application for a change to classification as an M-1 student if the applicant intends to pursue the course of study solely in order to qualify for a subsequent change of nonimmigrant classification to that of an alien temporary worker under section 101(a)(15)(H) of the Act. Furthermore, an alien may not change from classification as an M-1 student to that of an F-1 student.
(2) [Reserved]
(3) A nonimmigrant who is admitted as, or changes status to, a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002, or who files a request to extend the period of authorized stay as a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant on or after such date, may not pursue a course of study at an approved school unless the Service has approved his or her application for change of status to a classification as an F-1 or M-1 student. The district director or service center director will deny the change of status if the B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant enrolled in a course of study before filing the application for change of status or while the application is pending before the Service.
Remember this is your life and future career, make sure you are doing everything legally. If you are stopped and sent home, you are the one that is hurt by it, not Tony or Carb.
Be Legal,
Richard
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My concern is when we see, in a very competitive market, a flight school that can issue visas insisting you need one, vs flight schools that can't, arguing you don't.
People should indeed only listen to the INS or US Embassy, you can read their rules on the web and if it isn't crystal clear then you should obviously call them up and/or seek legal interpretation.
So why talk about the Homeland Security Dep't, and refer to a whole load of stuff about changing B category visa status? The facts plainly stated by the INS and US Embassy are that the visa waiver program extended to UK citizens staying less than 90 days is category W. Only those from high-risk countries or staying longer than 3 months might have a non-immigrant B-visa. So, factually speaking, all of that 'information' quoted above is not applicable and thus not helpful.
People should indeed only listen to the INS or US Embassy, you can read their rules on the web and if it isn't crystal clear then you should obviously call them up and/or seek legal interpretation.
So why talk about the Homeland Security Dep't, and refer to a whole load of stuff about changing B category visa status? The facts plainly stated by the INS and US Embassy are that the visa waiver program extended to UK citizens staying less than 90 days is category W. Only those from high-risk countries or staying longer than 3 months might have a non-immigrant B-visa. So, factually speaking, all of that 'information' quoted above is not applicable and thus not helpful.
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Confused, I took the advice offered by those above and emailed the US Embassy in London. My question, and their response, appear below.
I take the Embassy's response to mean that if I am to receive training from an instructor, I need an M-1. If I am just hour-building on my own, with no instruction, they strongly recommend a B-2. Entering on the waiver seems way too risky for my money.
Response from US Embassy in London
If you are to receive flight training in the U.S. you will require an F-1, M-1 or J-1 visa. You should contact the flight school which will provide you with either an I-20F or M, or an IAP-66 which is required to apply for the visa.
If you have a private pilots license and you merely wish to build up flight hours, you will require a B-2 visa. While you may be eligible to travel visa free under the Visa Waiver Program, if otherwise qualified, since the introduction of the Applicability of Aviation and Transportation Security Act, we would recommend that you apply for a B-2 visa. When applying for the visa and entry into the U.S. you should furnish a letter from the flight
school stating the type of aircraft on which you will receive training and the certified take-off weight of the aircraft.
Detailed information on visa application procedures is available from our website at www.usembassy.org.uk
This informal method of responding enables us to respond to you within a shorter time. No record is being made of this correspondence. If you need to email us again, please return this email.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Visa Enquiry
Question: = Do I need an M1 visa to visit a flight school to undertake training to Private Pilot Licence level?
Or can I enter under the visa waiver programme?
I am a British citizen.
I take the Embassy's response to mean that if I am to receive training from an instructor, I need an M-1. If I am just hour-building on my own, with no instruction, they strongly recommend a B-2. Entering on the waiver seems way too risky for my money.
Response from US Embassy in London
If you are to receive flight training in the U.S. you will require an F-1, M-1 or J-1 visa. You should contact the flight school which will provide you with either an I-20F or M, or an IAP-66 which is required to apply for the visa.
If you have a private pilots license and you merely wish to build up flight hours, you will require a B-2 visa. While you may be eligible to travel visa free under the Visa Waiver Program, if otherwise qualified, since the introduction of the Applicability of Aviation and Transportation Security Act, we would recommend that you apply for a B-2 visa. When applying for the visa and entry into the U.S. you should furnish a letter from the flight
school stating the type of aircraft on which you will receive training and the certified take-off weight of the aircraft.
Detailed information on visa application procedures is available from our website at www.usembassy.org.uk
This informal method of responding enables us to respond to you within a shorter time. No record is being made of this correspondence. If you need to email us again, please return this email.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Visa Enquiry
Question: = Do I need an M1 visa to visit a flight school to undertake training to Private Pilot Licence level?
Or can I enter under the visa waiver programme?
I am a British citizen.
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Ta for posting that. Interesting! I think we need to do a spot of lobbying to sort out these bureaucrats. They are going against the spirit of the visa waiver program with that interpretation, and the immigration officers aren't even enforcing it uniformly.
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Question: = Do I need an M1 visa to visit a flight school to undertake training to Private Pilot Licence level?
If you are to receive flight training in the U.S. you will require an F-1, M-1 or J-1 visa.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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...and the immigration officers aren't even enforcing it uniformly
Bearing this in mind, if at all possible, get a Visa. And if you don't have a Visa, regardless of whether you need one or not, don't volunteer any more information to immigration than you absolutely have to, without lying to them of course.
I suspect the laws aren't well known outside the aviation community, and they are subject to so much interpretation, that it's hardly surprising that you get different answers from different people. But, as I said, the only interpretation that counts is the guy who's working on immigration the day that you arrive, so do whatever you can to keep him happy.
FFF
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True, but don't forget that even if you have a visa they can still send you home again if they get suspicious when you arrive at immigration.
I once got taken aside and given the 3rd degree at Washington Dulles just because I said I was visiting friends. The whole US system is a mess. Two of the 9/11 hijackers got posthumous M-1 visas in the mail. Even queueing times are often ridiculous, whilst we're on the topic.
There's a lot of politics in progress, though, and the situation should get better fairly soon.
As an aside, I just checked the Applicability of Aviation and Transportation Security Act referred to by the US Embassy's email above. Section 111, "FLIGHT SCHOOL SECURITY", is only applicable to "training to operate jet-propelled aircraft." Seems these civil servants don't know their own legislation very well. It looks like a standard response and they quite likely won't know the difference between SEP and jet-propelled even if you got into a conversation with them about it. Of course, as people have said, the risk you take is that the INS officer you meet on arrival isn't too well informed either.
I once got taken aside and given the 3rd degree at Washington Dulles just because I said I was visiting friends. The whole US system is a mess. Two of the 9/11 hijackers got posthumous M-1 visas in the mail. Even queueing times are often ridiculous, whilst we're on the topic.
There's a lot of politics in progress, though, and the situation should get better fairly soon.
As an aside, I just checked the Applicability of Aviation and Transportation Security Act referred to by the US Embassy's email above. Section 111, "FLIGHT SCHOOL SECURITY", is only applicable to "training to operate jet-propelled aircraft." Seems these civil servants don't know their own legislation very well. It looks like a standard response and they quite likely won't know the difference between SEP and jet-propelled even if you got into a conversation with them about it. Of course, as people have said, the risk you take is that the INS officer you meet on arrival isn't too well informed either.
Last edited by carb; 14th Jan 2003 at 16:18.
The Oracle
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carb,
You will find the answer in here:
They did not list other Visas since on some Visas you are allowed to pursue studies. A Visa Waiver is just that, a waiver, it is not a Visa. You cannot change your status unless you are on a Visa.
On May 27, 2002 the New York Times printed an article titled, "Flight Schools See Downside to Crackdown"
In the article it is stated:
You cannot be granted entry to the U.S.A. for training without the proper Visa.
The Visa Waiver Program is explained in the U.S. Embassy Website:
Details about the Visa Waiver Program
I hope this clears up the situation for you.
Take Care,
Richard
You will find the answer in here:
Why Is This Change Limited to B Nonimmigrants?
In the process of drafting this rule, the Service considered making its requirements (i.e., that nonimmigrants obtain a student visa before being able to take courses) apply to anyone in the United States not currently in student status. Such a requirement would be broader than the rule as presently drafted, which applies just to nonimmigrants in B-1 or B-2 visitor status.
B nonimmigrants generally enter the United States for purposes of tourism or for a business trip. Pursuing a course of study is inconsistent with these purposes, and thus inconsistent with B status. However, pursuit of studies generally is consistent with most other nonimmigrant statuses, and thus such a broader rule could have unintended and overly burdensome consequences for such nonimmigrants. For some, such a J-1 au pair or an H-3 trainee, the courses might be an integral part of the program for which they obtained their status. For many dependent spouses, such as H-4s, derivatives of A or G diplomats, or NAFTA TN-2s, studies may be their only permissible pursuit while accompanying their spouse who is working in the United States. Dependent children are, in fact, expected to attend school. Even some principals in nonimmigrant status (e.g., H-1Bs, L-1s) may take courses incident to status to enhance their professional development. Requiring that these individuals change to F-1 or M-1 status in order to pursue studies would eliminate their ability to attend part-time, since by statute F-1s and M-1s must be pursuing a full course of study and since a nonimmigrant is prohibited from holding more than one onimmigrant status while in the United States.
In the process of drafting this rule, the Service considered making its requirements (i.e., that nonimmigrants obtain a student visa before being able to take courses) apply to anyone in the United States not currently in student status. Such a requirement would be broader than the rule as presently drafted, which applies just to nonimmigrants in B-1 or B-2 visitor status.
B nonimmigrants generally enter the United States for purposes of tourism or for a business trip. Pursuing a course of study is inconsistent with these purposes, and thus inconsistent with B status. However, pursuit of studies generally is consistent with most other nonimmigrant statuses, and thus such a broader rule could have unintended and overly burdensome consequences for such nonimmigrants. For some, such a J-1 au pair or an H-3 trainee, the courses might be an integral part of the program for which they obtained their status. For many dependent spouses, such as H-4s, derivatives of A or G diplomats, or NAFTA TN-2s, studies may be their only permissible pursuit while accompanying their spouse who is working in the United States. Dependent children are, in fact, expected to attend school. Even some principals in nonimmigrant status (e.g., H-1Bs, L-1s) may take courses incident to status to enhance their professional development. Requiring that these individuals change to F-1 or M-1 status in order to pursue studies would eliminate their ability to attend part-time, since by statute F-1s and M-1s must be pursuing a full course of study and since a nonimmigrant is prohibited from holding more than one onimmigrant status while in the United States.
On May 27, 2002 the New York Times printed an article titled, "Flight Schools See Downside to Crackdown"
In the article it is stated:
But under the new rules, schools and colleges cannot admit foreigners carrying tourist visas. A school that does so, including a small flight school, can lose its right to admit any foreign students, according to Russ Bergeron, a spokesman for the immigration service.
The Visa Waiver Program is explained in the U.S. Embassy Website:
Details about the Visa Waiver Program
Important reminder: Visa-free travel does not include those who plan to study, work or remain more than 90 days. Such travelers need visas. If a U.S. immigration officer believes that a visa-free traveler is going to study, work or stay longer than 90 days, the officer will refuse to admit the traveler.
Take Care,
Richard
Join Date: Jan 2002
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OK. But I still maintain that all this is inconsistent with the intended aims of the visa waiver program. If I get a chance I'll raise it myself with the appropriate people. 'Study' is defined elsewhere in such a way as to exclude recreational stuff and part-time study, and, don't take all that you read in the press at face value! That article is precisely what I'd want to get in print to catch attention if I was lobbying on behalf of suffering flight schools.
The Oracle
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Carb,
The U.S. Embassy Website is quite clear about the Visa Waiver Program:
Details about the Visa Waiver Program
The U.S. Government has been very clear. After terrorist used aircraft to attack the U.S.A. on Sept. 11th, they are not going to allow it to happen again. The way they are insuring this is by having anyone planning on flight training in the U.S.A. have a background check prior to training. To guarantee a background check they requiring everyone planning on training to be on an F-1, M-1 or J-1 Visa.
If you want to ignore the law and take your chances entering the country illegally and under false pretenses, there is nothing we can say here to stop you. But, to try to encourage others to do the same is irresponsible.
Richard
The U.S. Embassy Website is quite clear about the Visa Waiver Program:
Details about the Visa Waiver Program
Important reminder: Visa-free travel does not include those who plan to study, work or remain more than 90 days. Such travelers need visas. If a U.S. immigration officer believes that a visa-free traveler is going to study, work or stay longer than 90 days, the officer will refuse to admit the traveler.
If you want to ignore the law and take your chances entering the country illegally and under false pretenses, there is nothing we can say here to stop you. But, to try to encourage others to do the same is irresponsible.
Richard
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Please don't mis-represent my words as encouraging anyone to do anything other than push for US gov't agencies to correctly enforce the law as it is written (they don't write it) and as it is intended (by elected representatives to whom they are ultimately accountable).
Visa-requirements may suit some people, but most of us prefer visa-free travel, not least of all US economic interests, and it's worth campaigning on. Never sell out to red tape!
Visa-requirements may suit some people, but most of us prefer visa-free travel, not least of all US economic interests, and it's worth campaigning on. Never sell out to red tape!
Last edited by carb; 14th Jan 2003 at 21:35.
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i dont know exactly what the rules are. I've gotten info from richard (naples) & now from tony. But here is another story.
I never had a student visa while going to an aviation college. I attended flight training on a I visa (journalist visa). I started training on the 30th of august 2001. School had no problem admitting me & didn't ask for a status change. A few days after Sept 11, the FBI showed up & went through the school files. Interestingly, my file didn't raise a red flag & they didn't even bother to question me. I had no problem attending until June 2002 when i quit for personal reasons.
I never had a student visa while going to an aviation college. I attended flight training on a I visa (journalist visa). I started training on the 30th of august 2001. School had no problem admitting me & didn't ask for a status change. A few days after Sept 11, the FBI showed up & went through the school files. Interestingly, my file didn't raise a red flag & they didn't even bother to question me. I had no problem attending until June 2002 when i quit for personal reasons.
