Second Officers

[Retro]

Hi,

This is my first post around here so I hope I am in the right forum.

I am interested to hear people's opinions on Second Officer time these days. I realize in the past this used to be a good path to follow but with the elimination of the 3rd crew member it is becoming rare.

The reason I ask is because for the last two years I have done about 1000hrs in front of the f/e panel as an SO in a 727 flying in both Europe and North America. (With a couple hundred hours of instructing before this). I am curious to see what employers in Europe would think of this time. After doing some research on this site and others it seems multi-crew time would be quite valuable. I realize the industry isn't in the best state right now but hopefully it will pick up soon and I would like to be able to take advantage of this experience. Unfortunately where I am (Canada) if it isn't straight flying time it is pretty much deemed to be useless.

So, if anyone has any opinions (or if anyone has followed this route as well in Europe) I would be interested in hearing from you.

Thank you,

[Bluebaron]

The route you are describing is very rare in Europe. To 'sit' in front of the F/E panel you need to be a F/E ! Some F/E's have converted to becoming pilots and successfully got jobs. However the experience levels (as a pilot) will be the same as someone who has just finished a cadet course.

As an employer (which i am not) i would certinally consider a ex F/E before a new cadet although it would depend upon the experience and age of the pilot.

S/O's in europe are type rated for the aircraft and usually sit in the RHS during cruise (above 20,000' ) whilst the F/O or CApt are on rest. They do not handle the aircraft below 20,000' feet. Also the only airlines that i have known to take them are Cathey, Singapore and Virgin Atlantic.

Some airlines, hire F/O's but call them S/O's until they have reached say 1500 hours. Basically this is a way to pay them less?.

BB

[batty]

As a flight eng, if you become a pilot you can credit some of your FE hours towards unfreezing your ATPL. Its only about 200 I think so dont quote me.

[AMEX]

S/O in North America is not what we call S/O in Europe....
In Europe, it is an F/O usually with little experience and on reduced salary.

[Retro]

Thanks for the information... I find it difficult sometimes to describe this experience to people not being either an FE or a cruise pilot but more of an SO/FE if that makes any sense. However, I'll see what happens with it!

Thanks again,

[scroggs]

While the procedure of gaining experience as an SO operating the FE's panel is traditional and highly respected in the US, it's not known in Europe. So, the essential answer to your question is that employers in Europe are unlikely to give you much credit for this time unless they currently operate a scheme for retraining their own FEs as pilots, and are thus familiar with the benefits of FE time (in Europe, the Flight Engineer is a career trade in itself, but many of the younger ones are now retraining as pilots).

As for converting your licence to the necessary JAA one, which presume you will need to do, I would strongly recommend you talk personally to Flight Crew Licencing at the CAA (or their equivalent in your chosen country) and get a ruling on what your SO/FE time is worth.

Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]

[Lazlo]

Even in Canada the second officer (F/E) route is of limited value. Don't waste any more time doing it. Do your best to get yourself a job in the right seat of something - anything. You need some handling time. Unfortunately F/E time doesn't go far in terms of getting an ATPL, which is what you need for employers to take you seriously. You must do everything you can to get those hours and sitting facing the wall is not the way to do it. Times are tough, but in Canada they always are for pilots. Just perservere and you will get something.

Lazlo

[Sir Donald]

Maybe European operators should consider s/o's on long haul operations, as it will help guys in the Frozen ATPL/1000 hrs TT range with a chance to prove their determination having '' cut the mustard'' via the modular route, accumulate multi crew experience and prepare them for F/O's their way instead of having ridicilous requirements like experience on aircraft over 25 tons for example, and let them waste their talent only to be told that they have aquired too many bad habits whilst gaining experience flying single pilot op's.