Who should I apply to for my first job?!
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Horsham, West Sussex
Who should I apply to for my first job?!
This may seem a rather stupid question but here goes! I am due to finish my CPL in Jan and already have my IR so I'm going to have to start looking for jobs soon. Has anyone got some useful advice on where I should start? We all know that jobs are hard to come by but I dont even have a clue where I should start looking!!! I will only have about 250hrs so the obvious major airlines seem to be out of the question. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 27
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From: wherever they let me
The obvious answer is McDonalds. Might as well get that one out of the way.
Flood the airlines with your cv. Concentrate on the smaller operators with Turboprops. Very little recruiting happening for low time guys right now.
Flood the airlines with your cv. Concentrate on the smaller operators with Turboprops. Very little recruiting happening for low time guys right now.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 599
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From: EGKK
As someone once suggested to me, "accept any job flying the biggest thing someone will pay you to fly".
Repeat this process continuously and within a few years of getting your first paid flying job, there's no reason you shouldn't be in with the "majors".
Bear in mind though, that most of us remain at Stage 1... looking for someone to pay us to fly planes.
Repeat this process continuously and within a few years of getting your first paid flying job, there's no reason you shouldn't be in with the "majors".
Bear in mind though, that most of us remain at Stage 1... looking for someone to pay us to fly planes.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 216
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From: LTN
I think the short answer is to apply to everyone with an AOC and you might just strike gold.
However, you will soon learn that in this game, it's not what you know, it's who you know. So I would target the smaller operators to start with, and try to get to know someone there and work your way in from that.
I'm in the same position and have just about got half a little toe in the door.
Good luck.
However, you will soon learn that in this game, it's not what you know, it's who you know. So I would target the smaller operators to start with, and try to get to know someone there and work your way in from that.
I'm in the same position and have just about got half a little toe in the door.
Good luck.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 524
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From: uk
"McDonalds"..."Burger king"....
I think this guy is looking for serious answers, these are pathetic.
No wonder your all jobless...if not underaged.
Personally I would apply to everyone you can think of. If you send me an email/pm I have a spreadsheet i managed to get from somewhere, can't remember where with loads of airlines contacts on. As funny as it sounds, I expressed my interest to Virgin Atlantic, just after I had passed my PPL, I told them this, that I only had a PPL and they told me to fill in the online application so they could take a look at what I had already and they gave in return some good advice so you never know, even if its not a paid job, its valueble information.
I think this guy is looking for serious answers, these are pathetic.
No wonder your all jobless...if not underaged.
Personally I would apply to everyone you can think of. If you send me an email/pm I have a spreadsheet i managed to get from somewhere, can't remember where with loads of airlines contacts on. As funny as it sounds, I expressed my interest to Virgin Atlantic, just after I had passed my PPL, I told them this, that I only had a PPL and they told me to fill in the online application so they could take a look at what I had already and they gave in return some good advice so you never know, even if its not a paid job, its valueble information.
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: EGKK
OBK! is right, it was for a time funny to equate low-hour guys with McDonalds and Burger King jobs, but please people this guy is looking for constructive responses to his question.
I know several airline pilots and not one (self-sponsored) waited less than 6 months for a job - whilst being turned down by all sorts of air taxi / regional operators.
Many of them stuck it out and ended up in 737/757 right seats just by getting the timing right an pestering the appropriate people!
Whilst I appreciate the situation has changed since Sept 11th and Iraq circumstances, please have the decency to help Leo8 with some useful advice on applications.
I know several airline pilots and not one (self-sponsored) waited less than 6 months for a job - whilst being turned down by all sorts of air taxi / regional operators.
Many of them stuck it out and ended up in 737/757 right seats just by getting the timing right an pestering the appropriate people!
Whilst I appreciate the situation has changed since Sept 11th and Iraq circumstances, please have the decency to help Leo8 with some useful advice on applications.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 128
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From: Horsham, West Sussex
Thank you so much for your last two replies!!!!! They were both much more helpful and constructive. In fact, I know a guy who completed his training, waited around for a few months and got hired direct to BA on 737's. So, it is possible. Once again, thanks for the more serious replies.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 142
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From: LGW
OBK..... Who said I was jobless? (presently 757/ 767) however, am still trying to leave this game all together unfortunately Burger King turned me down!!!
Localiser Green..... Don't know who you know but I don't know anyone who got a job on a nice shiny jet six months after being given their CPL. Many people took ten years to find a flying job and that was when the situation was far better than it is now.
Localiser Green..... Don't know who you know but I don't know anyone who got a job on a nice shiny jet six months after being given their CPL. Many people took ten years to find a flying job and that was when the situation was far better than it is now.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 524
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From: uk
I know a couple of pilots who got there first jobs in the RHS of A320 as First Officer and 757/767 as a Second Officer. Won't mention any names, no need.
"Many people took ten years to find a flying job and that was when the situation was far better than it is now."
What's that wrong with the situation now?
You have numerous airlines that are recruiting/going to recruit soon. Whens the last time you saw Britannia generously offer sponsorship? And there are several more sponsorship oppurtunities becoming available via CTC MCAlpine....never seen this before, gees, I'd want to be this age 10 years ago.
I'd say now was a pretty respectable time to be looking at recruitment, also with many oldy's going to retire soon. There's never going to be a time where airlines will offer "MASS RECRUITMENT FOR LOW HOUR PILOTS" so I don't know what you all relate to as being a "good or bad" time for recruitment. Airlines are either recruiting or there not, and at the moment there are several airlines recruiting. If only for intermediate houred pilots..still, good for those with the hours, and it helps get rid of competition for us low houred peeps. Or "Empty the boat" should I say.
"Many people took ten years to find a flying job and that was when the situation was far better than it is now."
What's that wrong with the situation now?
You have numerous airlines that are recruiting/going to recruit soon. Whens the last time you saw Britannia generously offer sponsorship? And there are several more sponsorship oppurtunities becoming available via CTC MCAlpine....never seen this before, gees, I'd want to be this age 10 years ago.
I'd say now was a pretty respectable time to be looking at recruitment, also with many oldy's going to retire soon. There's never going to be a time where airlines will offer "MASS RECRUITMENT FOR LOW HOUR PILOTS" so I don't know what you all relate to as being a "good or bad" time for recruitment. Airlines are either recruiting or there not, and at the moment there are several airlines recruiting. If only for intermediate houred pilots..still, good for those with the hours, and it helps get rid of competition for us low houred peeps. Or "Empty the boat" should I say.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 599
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From: EGKK
"Localiser Green..... Don't know who you know but I don't know anyone who got a job on a nice shiny jet six months after being given their CPL. Many people took ten years to find a flying job and that was when the situation was far better than it is now."
Obviously you don't know who I know then. In fact I know 2 guys who got taken straight into 757 right seats in 1999 with little more than 200 hours to their name.
Several others got into regionals (ATR / Saab affairs) and now fly A320/A330. One guy got into a well-known low-cost airline on 737s with 200 hours post September 11th. Don't make out that it doesn't happen because it does, and in (several) years it will again.
If you're so obsessed about "getting out" of the industry and working in Burger King please do so and leave some room for those with the dedication and passion. If you like, I will gladly help you with your job-hunt
Obviously you don't know who I know then. In fact I know 2 guys who got taken straight into 757 right seats in 1999 with little more than 200 hours to their name.
Several others got into regionals (ATR / Saab affairs) and now fly A320/A330. One guy got into a well-known low-cost airline on 737s with 200 hours post September 11th. Don't make out that it doesn't happen because it does, and in (several) years it will again.
If you're so obsessed about "getting out" of the industry and working in Burger King please do so and leave some room for those with the dedication and passion. If you like, I will gladly help you with your job-hunt
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 199
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From: South East
Easy Glider- I for one was lucky enough to get a job flying 737, 5 weeks after getting my CPL/IR so it can be done. I had UNDER 200 hours, and have now unfrozen my ATPL, less than 2 years since CPL issue.
Leo 8 apply to everyoe you can you never know who might say yes or turn into a lead to another job. But be warned you will get alot of rejection, just keep at it. Dont let the flying skills lapse, if you dont get a job quickly think about becoming an FI. Go to all the para dropping clubs, gliding clubs etc etc. Even if its not a job now it may lead to one and when you do get an interview you will look more committed and be more current with more hours thn the guys who go and work in Burger King and Mc D's.
Don't let the idiots put you off, you have worked had to now, and now it realy begins.
Good luck....
Leo 8 apply to everyoe you can you never know who might say yes or turn into a lead to another job. But be warned you will get alot of rejection, just keep at it. Dont let the flying skills lapse, if you dont get a job quickly think about becoming an FI. Go to all the para dropping clubs, gliding clubs etc etc. Even if its not a job now it may lead to one and when you do get an interview you will look more committed and be more current with more hours thn the guys who go and work in Burger King and Mc D's.
Don't let the idiots put you off, you have worked had to now, and now it realy begins.
Good luck....
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 63
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From: Newcastle, UK
Leo8,
As many before me have said, make sure you apply to everyone and by all means go for the big airlines. In my experience, the smaller regional outfits (the logical first step) wanted really unrealistic levels of experience. They were the ones who messed me around - one in particular promised me the earth but never delivered. In the end, one of the majors hired me and I have been very happy there ever since. Don't discount anyone. The old saying "it's not what you know it's who you know" tends to apply more to those same smaller outfits. Larger airlines have big personnel departments and are far more likely to rely on aptitude testing etc, and not who you know. If you don't apply you will never get the job, so just do it!
Easy Glider, I don't understand how you can be flying a 757 in the UK and not know anyone who got a job straight out of flying school. On my 757 course almost everyone was "right out of school" - and the course after that, and the course after that, etc.
The future looks pretty good for hiring but with a probable war in Iraq early next year I forsee a bit of a bumpy road initially, but once all this silliness is over with and the world returns to some sense of normality I think that there will be lots of jobs up for grabs.
Lazlo
As many before me have said, make sure you apply to everyone and by all means go for the big airlines. In my experience, the smaller regional outfits (the logical first step) wanted really unrealistic levels of experience. They were the ones who messed me around - one in particular promised me the earth but never delivered. In the end, one of the majors hired me and I have been very happy there ever since. Don't discount anyone. The old saying "it's not what you know it's who you know" tends to apply more to those same smaller outfits. Larger airlines have big personnel departments and are far more likely to rely on aptitude testing etc, and not who you know. If you don't apply you will never get the job, so just do it!
Easy Glider, I don't understand how you can be flying a 757 in the UK and not know anyone who got a job straight out of flying school. On my 757 course almost everyone was "right out of school" - and the course after that, and the course after that, etc.
The future looks pretty good for hiring but with a probable war in Iraq early next year I forsee a bit of a bumpy road initially, but once all this silliness is over with and the world returns to some sense of normality I think that there will be lots of jobs up for grabs.
Lazlo
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 142
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From: LGW
Lazlo......... Read my post again, what I said was that I didnt know anyone who got a job on a jet with a CPL and nothing else. That means I PERSONALLY dont know anyone who fits that criteria. On the other hand, I do know several people PERSONALLY who had to wait between 5 and 10 years for such a job.
On the issue of your 757 course, I find it almost impossible to believe that out of three courses, no one had any more experience than a CPL and 200 hours!!!!! On my course which was admittedly a while ago now, there was a range of experience from heavy t.p to heavy jet but no one had any less than heavy t.p and if i remember correctly 1500 hours.
On the issue of your 757 course, I find it almost impossible to believe that out of three courses, no one had any more experience than a CPL and 200 hours!!!!! On my course which was admittedly a while ago now, there was a range of experience from heavy t.p to heavy jet but no one had any less than heavy t.p and if i remember correctly 1500 hours.
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 4,282
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From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
Apply to EVERYONE! If they operate an aeroplane bloody phone & write to them! Jet, TP, piston, single, airline, air taxi, traffic spotting, sky diving, glider tug or even hang around an aerodrome getting to know those who operate the things. Be around when someone needs a hand to push his/her aeroplane or would appreciate someone showing them where the aerodrome cafe is.
But be realistic. You WILL get many, many, many (repeat ad nauseum) knockbacks. You only need ONE acceptance.
As for the "I know/don't know someone/anyone who did/didn't get a job on a jet/TP/piston straight from training/after years" debate:
A very, very FEW lucky individuals gain employment on a jet/TP straight from training. By this I mean without an intermediate job or series of jobs. It could be weeks or is more likely to be months/years. 'More likely' refers to the VERY FEW who are fortunate this way.
Most, however, face traffic spotting, glider towing, skydive dropping, occasional ferry (to the next aerodrome where the maintenance is done, not US to uK) & - even more mostly - instructing.
Many will never get a jet airline job. Many will finish their careers on TP. Many others on pistons.
For most people getting your licence is the easiest part of working as a pilot. Getting the first job and every single subsequent career advancement is far, far more difficult.
But be realistic. You WILL get many, many, many (repeat ad nauseum) knockbacks. You only need ONE acceptance.
As for the "I know/don't know someone/anyone who did/didn't get a job on a jet/TP/piston straight from training/after years" debate:
A very, very FEW lucky individuals gain employment on a jet/TP straight from training. By this I mean without an intermediate job or series of jobs. It could be weeks or is more likely to be months/years. 'More likely' refers to the VERY FEW who are fortunate this way.
Most, however, face traffic spotting, glider towing, skydive dropping, occasional ferry (to the next aerodrome where the maintenance is done, not US to uK) & - even more mostly - instructing.
Many will never get a jet airline job. Many will finish their careers on TP. Many others on pistons.
For most people getting your licence is the easiest part of working as a pilot. Getting the first job and every single subsequent career advancement is far, far more difficult.
Moderator
Joined: Dec 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,929
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From: Suffolk UK
Leo8, Tinstaafl has it about right. Those who suggest that either 'you will get a job with 200 hours because I know someone who did' or 'you can't possibly get a job with 200 hours bcause I don't know anyone else who did' are not being very helpful. Extrapolating to the whole industry from one's own experience is a very inaccurate way of assessing things!
There is some recruiting going on now, though not nearly as much as there was 2 years ago. Things are likely to get a great deal better over the next 18 months to two years, though a Gulf war could put everything back a year or so. Just a cursory look around Pprune shows that EZ, Ryanair, Flybe, JMC, and Virgin Atlantic are all recruiting right now, to a greater or lesser extent. Most operators have expressed an intent to recruit in 2003; BA is the only significant exception.
You must carefully construct your CV (there are plenty of threads here on that subject - do a search), create a covering letter specifically for each and every operator you target, and get your CV out to all of them as soon as you can. Where an airline has an online application procedure, study (maybe print out) all the preamble in detail before you put finger to keyboard. It's very easy to say something you didn't mean, but you can't change it once you've clicked 'submit'!
Be prepared for lots of rejections, but your search will bear fruit eventually.
There is some recruiting going on now, though not nearly as much as there was 2 years ago. Things are likely to get a great deal better over the next 18 months to two years, though a Gulf war could put everything back a year or so. Just a cursory look around Pprune shows that EZ, Ryanair, Flybe, JMC, and Virgin Atlantic are all recruiting right now, to a greater or lesser extent. Most operators have expressed an intent to recruit in 2003; BA is the only significant exception.
You must carefully construct your CV (there are plenty of threads here on that subject - do a search), create a covering letter specifically for each and every operator you target, and get your CV out to all of them as soon as you can. Where an airline has an online application procedure, study (maybe print out) all the preamble in detail before you put finger to keyboard. It's very easy to say something you didn't mean, but you can't change it once you've clicked 'submit'!
Be prepared for lots of rejections, but your search will bear fruit eventually.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: Rock in the Channel
Leo8
I don't know about the hiring policies of other airlines, but I found that the one I work for, there is a tendancy to disguard low time / newly qualified pilots becuase of their lack of experience. I feel that, especially for small commuter turboprop operators, this is not the best policy to adopt. The guy who is hired with 1500 hours plus will be looking for command in a very small space of time. Whereas, the guy who has 200 hours is not interested in command and will give 2 to 3 years of right hand seat driving before he is even qualified to switch seats.
Although this is not advice I just thought you may like to know.
My advice is the same as all the others, flood the market with your cv and dont give up hope, we have all (well, most of us) been in the same boat. GOOD LUCK
Although this is not advice I just thought you may like to know.
My advice is the same as all the others, flood the market with your cv and dont give up hope, we have all (well, most of us) been in the same boat. GOOD LUCK
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 285
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From: UK
OBK..... Who said I was jobless? (presently 757/ 767) however, am still trying to leave this game all together unfortunately Burger King turned me down!!!
Having read many threads on this site I am amazed by how negative and rude people are. The guy is trying to find a job and needs some constructive suggestions.
As for the above ? Please, get a life. Do you look at the bad side of life every single day, get abused by the public and put your own safety at risk every single day for an ungrateful and undeserving public ? If you fly a multi million pound jet, you are the lucky one mate.....look around you and see !!
TJ
Having read many threads on this site I am amazed by how negative and rude people are. The guy is trying to find a job and needs some constructive suggestions.
As for the above ? Please, get a life. Do you look at the bad side of life every single day, get abused by the public and put your own safety at risk every single day for an ungrateful and undeserving public ? If you fly a multi million pound jet, you are the lucky one mate.....look around you and see !!
TJ