Oxford V The other Modular Schools

[Tim_donovan]

Question,

So you get all the information back from all the various colleges / Schools and then you have to decide which is the best for you..
At one end of the scale there is Oxford which @ 60k + appears to be the most expensive. I am fine with that and then at the other end there is are the sub 25k naturally 2 totally different courses.

So you say aim for the middle to upper end and you will be OK.

Then a friend whispers in your ear if you go to Oxford you have a far greater chance of getting a job with an airline. Cos the first place they look at first is Oxford. (Trained at Oxford)

Is this correct?

So say they look at Oxford and don't get anywhere (Highly unlikey) Where to next?

Do they look at SFT? No because that went bust

Do they look at EPTA? Or is that just SFT renamed and re-located!!!

Stapleford who claim that you get to fly in highly restrict airspace to build those hours?

Carrill Aviation ?

Bournemouth Flying Club?

So how is it ranked?

Which offers the greatest chance?
(Easy WWW and Sroggs you generally go large on these sort of questions)

We all know that the school /college will not get you the job at the end it is you and you alone.
The price of the course does not make any difference.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Anyone got views on this ?

[pugzi]

Some say location location location. But be careful. Those who say iit isn't are somewhat misguided. Lets take the extreme. You go get your JAA from some out of the way minor european state and compare that to a JAA from a more informed and reliable JAA state. I know that more consideration be given to someone who has obtained it from a more "reputable" authority.

However, so now you choose a "reputable" country to do your JAA licence. The difference between the schools in that country offering this is minor. The different schools wont really matter to the airline. But the reputation of that countries CAA is what counts.

There are even more twists. Some airlines go to different schools, cabair, oxford, CTC MacAlpine etc. So dont go by the principle that because and airline is usin a school and not another that it's any better than any other school. These contracts are awarded to schools for many many reasons, not just because of "reputation". So all the schools can get your licence and all the schools will put you in a similar position to get that elusive job.

What the decision should be based upon for you is customer care (talk to students), location (it is easy to get to?, living costs? etc), time taken (can you quit your job, can you afford to?) and money, and if you want to start a war talk about pass rates as well. Can you afford it and have you got the time will all dictate either a modular route or intergrated. That descision will automatically start to short list the available schools.

It has to be a personal choice and this issue has been thrashed about on this forum for as long as this forum has been running.

Good luck, and please, this is an opinion, i dont want to start a war.

[Tim_donovan]

pugzi,

Thanksfor you feedback.

In answer to your questions here goes:

Location good point well made that restricts me to Oxford, Bournmouth or Southampton.

Sponsorship? Too Old not enough qualifications.

Modular: Yes I want to go that route.

So to start I will do States for 8 weeks then ground school for 19 etc etc

As you say starting a war on this website always seem to be an issue with so may pilots having such strong views. So I agree on that element.

Of course this question must have been asked before but searching the site could take some time.

Furthermore the situation regarding all the different schools must change from month to month year to year.

But the question still remains does it make a difference regarding training within the UK between Oxford and lets say Bournmouth is there a snob element involved (I don't want to bring to much poltics into this)

Naturally as you have said within you reply, the schools that airlines look at are the likes of Oxford/Cabair and a n other. But does it stop there? and is there a points system?

I thank you in advance for your reply.

TTFN

[Johnny 7]

I think you should consider the fact that a number of airlines have selected Oxford as a training provider for their own sponsored cadets over the years . Thus a self funded graduate from that school is , to a certain extent , a known quantity .

However , if your face fits & you know your stuff then , like most things in life , it makes little difference . In the current marketplace though , it might be a push up the ladder ?

[redsnail]

Gees....
Oxford isn't the be all and end all. Thank goodness.
Personally, I would rather have sitting next to me who knows their stuff, can handle the heat and can perform regardless of what bloody school they went to.
Be the best possible student you can be. It's your life you are playing with. I mean that most sincerely.
A school is as only as good as its instructors.
(note, no ill meaning inferred on Oxford at all)

[kwaiyai]

Surely if you have passed your ATPL exams, Flight test, Ir Initial got your MCC etc, Then irrespective of where you did it you've got the licence to get a job. Of course The dreaded Airline Interview etc is the next problem, nevertheless wherever you did it you've got the CPL/FATPL IR etc, the requirement to be employed.
Just my view.

[Tim_donovan]

Johnny 7,

What a refreshing change from the others. Most of the comments returned to potential pilots seeking employment at the end of there training programme seems to revolve around flying hours.

Existing Pilots in command assume (which is probably correct) that rookies should not sit in the right hand seat of a 737 until they have done their time in heavy turbo props or alike.

But in some situations there must be new recruits that are just naturals and may show up even the most experienced of captains. (Chances are slim, I know but then again pigs might fly.) However I do feel that some of the experienced captains seem to have a sum what blurred vision to giving that person a chance.

Take for example Tiger Woods yes I realise that this is a totally different perspective but he is young and has proved himself. I am sure that was less than 1500 hours logged in the air.

So is the argument valid regarding right hand seat rookies low hours?

If I am incorrect I will happily get back in my box, but I think it is point worth raising.

[Johnny 7]

Tim , why shouldn't a low houred pilot operate in the right-hand seat of a 737 ? These days , despite the hands-on training for your CPL skill test & subseqent IR , the majority of actual line flying is really systems monitoring . There is a lot of value in having wrestled the controls of say an F27 down the ILS at Jersey with a 40kt x-wind in moderate turbulence with a 60ft cloud base & RVR of 300m (yeah right !) , but in reality typical airline flying today is just not like this anymore .

After all , if the inexperienced lacked the required ability , BA , bmi , etc wouldn't be putting guys & girls into the right-hand seat so soon after graduating . It's all about aptitude .

[Tim_donovan]

Johnny 7,

I believe we both agree on this subject!

Just waiting for a dig from a captain with loads of hours ....

I am sure it will come.

Ta very much for your comments

[FlyingForFun]

Tim,

You may well be correct. Maybe some pilots are naturally gifted.


Two points, though:

First of all, how are the airlines going to know? If they won't interview because you don't have enough hours, you've got no way of demonstrating your natural talent, have you? So it's completely irrelevant.

And secondly, those gifted pilots will be gifted due to their hand-eye-foot coordination, common sense, natural ability to make good decisions, and, not least, hard work. It won't be because of what school they go to.

There is nothing wrong with Oxford - by all accounts they are a very good school, one of the best. But there is nothing wrong with most of the other schools out there either. If you want to go to Oxford (and it seems clear from your posts that your heart is set on Oxford), then go for it - like I said, they are one of the best schools around. A small number of airlines may even view you as being favourable to an applicant who's worked equally hard somewhere else - but it's a very small number, and the "worked equally hard" bit is key.

FFF
-----------------

[Tim_donovan]

Good point well made, hadn't thought of it that way.

But then it is up to you to ensure you get a interview followed by checkride me thinks.

[Send Clowns]

Stating upfront that I work for one of the schools you mentioned, (I teach groundschool for Bournemouth Commercial Flight Training, owned by BFC) I would have to give a factual correction to something you said, Tim.

The courses offered by Oxford and the others at "£25k" are not 2 different courses. They are both approved and monitored in the same way by the CAA. They are the same course, except that Oxford's is to be paid upfront for everything you need zero to frozen ATPL. The low price ones you pay as you run through the course, so they do not include everything you arrange yourself, such as hours building and test fees. In fact although the basic courses may cost around the £25k you are really looking at spending nearly £40k.

I would say also that more money does not necessarily mean better, especially not better for you the individual (and £40k pays for a lot of individual treatment!). Find all the schools you think you could choose, and visit them. With that investment it is worthwhile. I would also suggest you pay module by module rather than upfront, so if you don't like the school, or you feel somewhere else is more suitable for the next module then you can change schools.

[Tim_donovan]

Send Clowns,

One course to another, different, yes, price.

So you are telling me that the course at BFC is the same as Oxford!!!

Excellent where do I sign...


Sailing, you sail do you? On what big or small?

[Send Clowns]

All courses are basically the same (don't want to get accused of advertising here, so email me if you want more details!) - differences in emphasis and atmosphere but approvals mean they have to give roughly equivalent courses. Hence my comment about visiting the schools - go out and find where you can feel comfortable - the school should be delighted to show you around, after all they hope you'll spend many thousands of pounds with them!

In your area are many possibilities - 5 approved FTOs in Bournemouth alone covering one module or another (or all in our case). Southampton is a possibility for the flying side, and of Course I believe Oxford has some involvement in flying training.

and yes I sail - have been known to sail everything from a plank to 38-foot as opportunity presents itself. How about you?

Oh, and a quick correction for Johnny 7. All the sponsored students at Oxford go through their integrated course, whereas Tim wishes to take the modular route. There is no reason to think of the modular student as a "known quantity" any more than someone going through another CAA-approved modular course. The courses must be run seperately, as they have a different structure, hence the cost difference.

[Johnny 7]

It shouldn't make any difference but in the U.K. airline industry , OATS does seem to . Largely I believe because in the days when there were fewer approved schools Oxford was held in some high esteem rather like CFS or Hamble . But the standard of any school must be measured on success not past reputation & this depends not just on instruction given but also the hard work & dedication of the students , & perhaps most importantly continuity & practice . Unaware of any of these schools having a reputation for poor flying instruction I would seek a training provider who addresses the considerations of weather , fleet & instructor availability . Add to that good , comfortable accommodation , reasonable food at a reasonable price & an approachable , working chain of command & I would feel somewhat satisfied .

I don't think any of the schools offers anything near the ideal suggested but a couple do try - I agree with Send Clowns go & see some schools for yourself & most importantly of all , try to talk to some students .

Thankyou Send Clowns for the clarification - my drift was more along the lines of why Oxford seems to have this reputation not suggesting that a modular graduate would be in the same boat as a sponsored one , just that the OATS name would be known at interview . By the way , often the instructors teaching modular are the same individuals who teach integrated at OAT these days , picking up work as required .

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The only thing one can be sure of is this:

The pilot Wannabe who thinks his schools 'reputation' gives him an edge is most usually regarded as an unctious pillock by others.

WWW

[impartial]

In response to the point about 'a school' being better because airlines have chosen it to train their cadets, 'therefore it must be good'.

The airlines are on a budget and want to get the best value for money that they can, therefore if it comes down to 'battle of the quotes' on basic terms for the same end product the cheaper quote is usually taken. (as i said though obviously checking the quality of the training, cheap does not mean good, but conversely expensive does ot mean better )

You will probably find that once the airline/school training contract is entered into, some penalty will be paid by the school if they do not deliver the goods on time. The airline will have JOC courses etc booked in advance, if the student is not ready this alters their planning. Therefore, though it will be strongly denied by the school, it is likely a sponsored student will get priority over a self sponsored student who won't bill them per day over due (but I think they should be able to )

As for training in the states. Talking to instructors it seems that generally students coming back from the states either to convert a licence or with a JAA CPL wishing to add an IR, need extra training to compensate from the vast differences in standards, airspace, RT, procedures etc.

Ultimately I agree with Send Clowns that you must visit the schools you are short listing. The brochure can paint a rosy picture, but you must see it for yourself. Can you see yourself enjoying going into the building every day, is the atmosphere a 'happy' one? Are the staff helpful and friendly , evaluate the situation around you and in the back ground, that they are not just being friendly to you because they want your money ultimately!

It is a trap that schools are resting on their laurels from decades ago, this industry changes hour by hour (September 11th the prime example).

Good luck with your course, I hope you are happy where ever you choose.

[Craggenmore]

Tim,

As well as speaking to all the schools to get a feel of what is on offer,

TALK TO THE AIRLINES! They employ pilots! Ask all the relevant questions like you asked the forum in your original post.

Also, if you can, talk to current captains, first officers, training captains and ex-pilots. I have done so extensively over the past few months and I'm very glad that I did. If you can't find any to call-up, seek out the bigger hotels in and around the major Airports. Check out the reception area and they are usually more than willing to talk for the price of a coffee. They are brutally honest too!

There are great courses all over the UK and Europe but after all the conversations that I have had with the aforementioned, it has helped me no end to choose a school. I was finding it very difficult as a result of just visiting the training schools themselves.

Good luck!

Craggenmore

[Tim_donovan]

Craggenmore,

It is, as I am sure you are aware extremely difficult to talk to the Airlines you are given number after number. Each switchboard gives you a number to dial only to be told it’s a different one. And before anyone says it each time I call I clearly ask to speak to someone in flight deck recruitment or flight deck training.

Is there a directory of recruitment numbers for flight crew? CAA listing or something like that.

WWW,

I do like your style comment well made.

So do you belief that that it is more down to the pilot and not the school then?

So as long as the school has a reasonable reputation you would be happy?

[Johnny 7]

Craggenmore

Many airline pilots are out of touch with current training practices & most are unfamiliar with the specifics of JAR-FCL requirements . Many instructors find it hard to keep up to speed !

Generally it's agreed that if you can do the job , know your stuff , are personable with some social skills then you are likely in with half a chance . The school shouldn't make any difference .