RAF - - > Airline
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RAF - - > Airline
Hello,
I am just curious as to what you come out of the RAF with, in respect to licenses. I assume it would be different depending on what aircraft you flew with them. I would like to fly the larger types Nimrod, Sentry, etc Then after I leave what will it take to get me up-to-speed with respect to licenses/training for an airline.
Regards,
Matthew
I am just curious as to what you come out of the RAF with, in respect to licenses. I assume it would be different depending on what aircraft you flew with them. I would like to fly the larger types Nimrod, Sentry, etc Then after I leave what will it take to get me up-to-speed with respect to licenses/training for an airline.
Regards,
Matthew
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A320_Murray.
Hello,
From what I understand, nothing. Well that’s maybe a bit harsh.
You will leave with a few thousand hours of flying time, that is normally factored on a percentage basis. Have a look at the Easyjet website, they have a general guide. You would have to complete a bridging course to convert from Military fliying to civil, and I believe that the RAF will pay for this, however you have to commit to further service.
As for flying the big stuff, you will initially be selected to flying the mainstay of the RAF, Eurofighter. If you fail selection for that, I believe that you will be rejected. You can however try again, if your within the age limit.
Have you been to your local careers office, if not go along and have a chat, they wont bite…much…!
Good luck,
Fra
Hello,
From what I understand, nothing. Well that’s maybe a bit harsh.
You will leave with a few thousand hours of flying time, that is normally factored on a percentage basis. Have a look at the Easyjet website, they have a general guide. You would have to complete a bridging course to convert from Military fliying to civil, and I believe that the RAF will pay for this, however you have to commit to further service.
As for flying the big stuff, you will initially be selected to flying the mainstay of the RAF, Eurofighter. If you fail selection for that, I believe that you will be rejected. You can however try again, if your within the age limit.
Have you been to your local careers office, if not go along and have a chat, they wont bite…much…!
Good luck,
Fra
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A320 Murray,
I take it you are looking at the military as a proper career in itself, rather than as a stepping stone to the airlines?
As Fra has pointed out, the RAF flying training system is geared primarily to produce fast-jet aircrew, and you will be expected to have that as your goal. Certainly at some point down the line you may be streamed for multi or rotary, but telling the board at OASC that you want to join to fly heavies may not be the best initial career move.
You'll also have secondary duties to perform as an officer and will spend a considerable chunk of each year on detachment or ops, sometimes with people firing lethal stuff at you. You may well be required to fire lethal stuff back. If you're aware of all this, then apologies for teaching you to suck eggs.
By the way, hi Fra, landings improved yet?
ST
I take it you are looking at the military as a proper career in itself, rather than as a stepping stone to the airlines?
As Fra has pointed out, the RAF flying training system is geared primarily to produce fast-jet aircrew, and you will be expected to have that as your goal. Certainly at some point down the line you may be streamed for multi or rotary, but telling the board at OASC that you want to join to fly heavies may not be the best initial career move.
You'll also have secondary duties to perform as an officer and will spend a considerable chunk of each year on detachment or ops, sometimes with people firing lethal stuff at you. You may well be required to fire lethal stuff back. If you're aware of all this, then apologies for teaching you to suck eggs.
By the way, hi Fra, landings improved yet?
ST
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I just thought that you might like to look at this reply which I saw on the Oxford website from one of the instructors in response to a student asking much the same question.
"The best advice on what you need to join the RAF would have to come from your local RAF Careers Office. There's one in virtually every big town. A lot of us at Oxford are ex-RAF, but are probably a bit out of date. Go to the horse's mouth.
However, in general terms, although the recruiting office may only quote the minimum qualifications, in practice, very few get taken on who do not have a good degree, have demonstrated a proven interest in flying and in the RAF, and are, broadly, a cut above the average. That should not put you off from trying - indeed, far from it, if you're the right sort of guy.
There is no problem at all about going from the RAF into a career as an airline, or other sort of commercial, pilot - you will be welcomed with open arms, because it is generally recognised throughout the industry that you will have an outstanding pedigree. The training is brilliant.
The problem will be getting into the RAF as a pilot. They can afford to be very picky at present. They only want the best. And the biggest single thing they are looking for is motivation and commitment. If you are only interested in joining them because it is a cheap way of getting a pilot's licence, they will spot that a mile off - they've seen it all before. The bottom line is - if the circumstances call for it - you have to be prepared to fight and die for your country. Most of us don't very often get called upon to do it - but it could happen. Several of my friends have been killed in flying accidents and minor wars. Are you really prepared to do that?
The RAF is not a job - it's a way of life. You have to be prepared to make that commitment. If you are, you will love it. But if you've only just thought of it because the alternative routes to a frozen ATPL and a career as a airline pilot are too expensive, then you're probably the wrong sort of guy.
I'm not trying to put you off. I was an RAF officer for 29 years. I just want you to go into it with your eyes open.
Best of luck, whatever you decide to do,"
"The best advice on what you need to join the RAF would have to come from your local RAF Careers Office. There's one in virtually every big town. A lot of us at Oxford are ex-RAF, but are probably a bit out of date. Go to the horse's mouth.
However, in general terms, although the recruiting office may only quote the minimum qualifications, in practice, very few get taken on who do not have a good degree, have demonstrated a proven interest in flying and in the RAF, and are, broadly, a cut above the average. That should not put you off from trying - indeed, far from it, if you're the right sort of guy.
There is no problem at all about going from the RAF into a career as an airline, or other sort of commercial, pilot - you will be welcomed with open arms, because it is generally recognised throughout the industry that you will have an outstanding pedigree. The training is brilliant.
The problem will be getting into the RAF as a pilot. They can afford to be very picky at present. They only want the best. And the biggest single thing they are looking for is motivation and commitment. If you are only interested in joining them because it is a cheap way of getting a pilot's licence, they will spot that a mile off - they've seen it all before. The bottom line is - if the circumstances call for it - you have to be prepared to fight and die for your country. Most of us don't very often get called upon to do it - but it could happen. Several of my friends have been killed in flying accidents and minor wars. Are you really prepared to do that?
The RAF is not a job - it's a way of life. You have to be prepared to make that commitment. If you are, you will love it. But if you've only just thought of it because the alternative routes to a frozen ATPL and a career as a airline pilot are too expensive, then you're probably the wrong sort of guy.
I'm not trying to put you off. I was an RAF officer for 29 years. I just want you to go into it with your eyes open.
Best of luck, whatever you decide to do,"
RAF and what you get??
RAF training
A320 Murray,
Be careful what you commit to. With a bit of aptitude you might get streamed rotary when you put it as last choice, just to make up numbers. Then even get chopped as a result of low-level ops being b****y hard work. And then being binned completely from flying!!
Look out for yourself and be aware of what could happen. GreenGage 22 is right.
Be careful what you commit to. With a bit of aptitude you might get streamed rotary when you put it as last choice, just to make up numbers. Then even get chopped as a result of low-level ops being b****y hard work. And then being binned completely from flying!!
Look out for yourself and be aware of what could happen. GreenGage 22 is right.
Joining the RAF with a view to becoming an airline pilot is just about the worst idea in the entire world.
IF they accept you - and thats a VERY big if - you will spend 3 years in training acquiring only a few hundred hours. I doubt they will accept you though as they can sniff out someone applying with less than 100% commitment a mile off.
Do you realise that about 16,000 apply for every pilot job in the airforce? You will weep at the CV's of some of these people.
WWW
IF they accept you - and thats a VERY big if - you will spend 3 years in training acquiring only a few hundred hours. I doubt they will accept you though as they can sniff out someone applying with less than 100% commitment a mile off.
Do you realise that about 16,000 apply for every pilot job in the airforce? You will weep at the CV's of some of these people.
WWW
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A320, you need to review your ideas on the RAF.
1, you can not view the RAF as a way to build hours to get a airline job.
2, if you want to join the RAF you will need to be 100% to a career (lifetime) in the RAF
3, if you say you want to fly Nimrods or something they will bin you straight away. They only want people who want to fly fast jets.
4, as someone already mentioned, getting into the RAF as a pilot is VERY hard. THey can pick the very best and will not compromise on their expectations.
Take everyones advice, go to uni or go and get a job for a few years.......... build up some life experience, save some money then go flying. If you really want to join the RAF then research it thoroughly and join for the right reasons. They see thousands of hopefulls every year.... they'll spot of fake before you even get of the train at Grantham.
1, you can not view the RAF as a way to build hours to get a airline job.
2, if you want to join the RAF you will need to be 100% to a career (lifetime) in the RAF
3, if you say you want to fly Nimrods or something they will bin you straight away. They only want people who want to fly fast jets.
4, as someone already mentioned, getting into the RAF as a pilot is VERY hard. THey can pick the very best and will not compromise on their expectations.
Take everyones advice, go to uni or go and get a job for a few years.......... build up some life experience, save some money then go flying. If you really want to join the RAF then research it thoroughly and join for the right reasons. They see thousands of hopefulls every year.... they'll spot of fake before you even get of the train at Grantham.
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I served in the RAF as a pilot for 22 years - mostly flying heavies, as it happens. I also spent 5 years involved in the selection of those who wished to join via University Air Squadrons. As the cut-and-paste from OAT's website suggests, you will be found out if your intention is to use the RAF as a stepping-stone to the airlines.
However, let's assume that you are fully committed to the idea of 16 years defending Queen and Country, flying whatever Her Majesty's Royal Air Force commands you to, in whatever dirty, dangerous and faraway little wars should come up in that time. At the end of those 16 years you can reasonaby expect to have 2000 to 3000 hours flying time in your Eurofighter Typhoon or whatever. You would probably have spent some time as an instructor, either in a Basic Flying Training School on Tucanos, or Advanced FTS in Hawks. You might well have spent some time as a weapons instructor in the Typhoon OCU, or on your squadron. You will also certainly have spent many months or even years away from home, living in basic accommodation, flying over some God-forsaken desert in support of yet another UK-US 'peace' operation. You also are likely to have spent one tour (three years or so) in a ground appointment of some kind.
You could, of course, be dead. I saw many, many mates' funerals in my 22 years.
Assuming you survive, at the end of those 16 years the RAF may offer you the chance to serve to 55, with, currently, some significant financial sweetners, or you may leave. On leaving, you would currently receive a tax-free lump sum of many thousands of pounds, and a pension. And a few exemptions from the ATPL requirements. Joining the airlines at that point would be entirely achievable and reasonable.
However, let's suppose that you decide after flying training that the RAF isn't for you. You will be, of course, released from the service - though the RAF I believe still does reserve the right to charge you for the training you received. I don't believe they've ever excercised this right, but the bill would be in millions of pounds! You'd leave with a couple hundred hours, no qualification, no money and a recently-acquired reputation for wasting people's time. Not good if you're now looking for a job!
Think very carefully about your next step.
However, let's assume that you are fully committed to the idea of 16 years defending Queen and Country, flying whatever Her Majesty's Royal Air Force commands you to, in whatever dirty, dangerous and faraway little wars should come up in that time. At the end of those 16 years you can reasonaby expect to have 2000 to 3000 hours flying time in your Eurofighter Typhoon or whatever. You would probably have spent some time as an instructor, either in a Basic Flying Training School on Tucanos, or Advanced FTS in Hawks. You might well have spent some time as a weapons instructor in the Typhoon OCU, or on your squadron. You will also certainly have spent many months or even years away from home, living in basic accommodation, flying over some God-forsaken desert in support of yet another UK-US 'peace' operation. You also are likely to have spent one tour (three years or so) in a ground appointment of some kind.
You could, of course, be dead. I saw many, many mates' funerals in my 22 years.
Assuming you survive, at the end of those 16 years the RAF may offer you the chance to serve to 55, with, currently, some significant financial sweetners, or you may leave. On leaving, you would currently receive a tax-free lump sum of many thousands of pounds, and a pension. And a few exemptions from the ATPL requirements. Joining the airlines at that point would be entirely achievable and reasonable.
However, let's suppose that you decide after flying training that the RAF isn't for you. You will be, of course, released from the service - though the RAF I believe still does reserve the right to charge you for the training you received. I don't believe they've ever excercised this right, but the bill would be in millions of pounds! You'd leave with a couple hundred hours, no qualification, no money and a recently-acquired reputation for wasting people's time. Not good if you're now looking for a job!
Think very carefully about your next step.
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Hello,
So glad I asked, opened my eyes much wider...I take it that if I just wanted to go straight to an airline it will take a lot of £££ then? So a good paying job to make-up the £££ then get my license's?!? However if I wanted to go to the RAF I would need 110% motivation and determination. So looks as if the RAF is not a good idea...
So glad I asked, opened my eyes much wider...I take it that if I just wanted to go straight to an airline it will take a lot of £££ then? So a good paying job to make-up the £££ then get my license's?!? However if I wanted to go to the RAF I would need 110% motivation and determination. So looks as if the RAF is not a good idea...
You've been getting some very out of date information, A320_Murray.
If you complete RAF training on an 'approved' multi-engine type (such as a E3/VC10/TriStar/C130 etc etc) and achieve 2000 hrs total flying, of which 1500 is on the 'approved ME type' - and of those 1500 hrs, not less than 1000 are as P1C, then to get a full JAR/FCL ATPL(A), all you have to do is:
1. Pass a JAA Class 1 medical
2. Pass JAR/FCL ATPL(A) Air Law.
3. Have your routine RAF IRT observed by a CAA IRE
4. Fill out the forms and pay the dosh
- this came in last year. It is a recruiting and retention incentive as it assists those who want a RAF pilot career until around their early 30s to move into civvie employment. If you are a FJ mate - and that's what you MUST aim for - with 2000 hours you take a short bridging package and take 5 exams (not the 15 that civvies would need to take) then do a single pilot IR on something like a Seneca. Then fill out the forms and pay the dosh and you get a JAR/FCL CPL/IR with ATPL knowledge - MCC and 500 hours with your airline and you too will have a JAR/FCL ATPL(A).
10-15 years hooting and roaring on FJs, a fairly simple cross-over to civvie package and you could have a second career on an airline. Go on - give it a go!!
If you complete RAF training on an 'approved' multi-engine type (such as a E3/VC10/TriStar/C130 etc etc) and achieve 2000 hrs total flying, of which 1500 is on the 'approved ME type' - and of those 1500 hrs, not less than 1000 are as P1C, then to get a full JAR/FCL ATPL(A), all you have to do is:
1. Pass a JAA Class 1 medical
2. Pass JAR/FCL ATPL(A) Air Law.
3. Have your routine RAF IRT observed by a CAA IRE
4. Fill out the forms and pay the dosh
- this came in last year. It is a recruiting and retention incentive as it assists those who want a RAF pilot career until around their early 30s to move into civvie employment. If you are a FJ mate - and that's what you MUST aim for - with 2000 hours you take a short bridging package and take 5 exams (not the 15 that civvies would need to take) then do a single pilot IR on something like a Seneca. Then fill out the forms and pay the dosh and you get a JAR/FCL CPL/IR with ATPL knowledge - MCC and 500 hours with your airline and you too will have a JAR/FCL ATPL(A).
10-15 years hooting and roaring on FJs, a fairly simple cross-over to civvie package and you could have a second career on an airline. Go on - give it a go!!
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Hello,
Thank-you - I've wanted to go into the RAF, I didn't rule out FJ's, I would love to fly them them (fast along the deck sorta thing) but I thought that flying the larger aircraft would give me more advantages as they would give me more "Heavy" experience, or would I be wrong? How much "dosh" would be needed to convert from Military to Civil?
Thank-you - I've wanted to go into the RAF, I didn't rule out FJ's, I would love to fly them them (fast along the deck sorta thing) but I thought that flying the larger aircraft would give me more advantages as they would give me more "Heavy" experience, or would I be wrong? How much "dosh" would be needed to convert from Military to Civil?
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Murray,
I don't believe you've understood the fundamental point that you do not choose what you fly in the RAF. You do not have the option to leave if the RAF doesn't give you the aeroplane you want.
You are still coming over as someone who wants to use the RAF as a stepping stone to airline life. There's nothing wrong with planning what you might want to do in 10 or 15 years' time, but remember that the RAF will demand 100% of your attention and commitment while you are with them.
I don't believe you've understood the fundamental point that you do not choose what you fly in the RAF. You do not have the option to leave if the RAF doesn't give you the aeroplane you want.
You are still coming over as someone who wants to use the RAF as a stepping stone to airline life. There's nothing wrong with planning what you might want to do in 10 or 15 years' time, but remember that the RAF will demand 100% of your attention and commitment while you are with them.
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The most important part to joining the RAF which no-one has yet mentioned is that above all else the RAF want their potentail pilots to be an Officer first, pilot second. You must select a ground branch as a second and third option if you want the RAF to take you seriously..... and you should be committed to those ground branches should you not make it as a pilot.
The RAF doesn't want pilots. It wants OFFICERS who can be pilots.
There was an excellent book written in the late eighties about the whole process of applying to the RAF all the way through to joining a front line squadron. Only problem is I can't remember who wrote it or what it was called. If you can find this book it will still be as valid today as it was then.
The RAF doesn't want pilots. It wants OFFICERS who can be pilots.
There was an excellent book written in the late eighties about the whole process of applying to the RAF all the way through to joining a front line squadron. Only problem is I can't remember who wrote it or what it was called. If you can find this book it will still be as valid today as it was then.
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Murray,
Some fantastic free advice so far from Scroggs and the lads, but I feel another mouth adding the point will not go amiss, if for no other reason than your attitude is still coming across as somewhat amiss.
Although my experience is with another branch of the forces who fly primarily helo's and a rather unique F.J.; i can ASSURE you that if you present yourself to the board in the manner you have on THIS board, you WILL be shown the door my friend.
That is not meant as a personal comment; just an honest observation.
At my time of leaving service, i was seeing applications for pilot commissions from chaps with some seriously complex degree's; who had already either completed the PPL or who had built significant hours towards this achievement. Most also had good "all rounder teamwork" backgrounds of sport and so on, and most could verify their interest in the services right back to the time they spent as children in cadet forces.
In other words, they were candidates who had geared their entire life to date to the goal of strapping on a fast jet and busting through the 1200ft cloudbase above the carrier to go do a difficult, demanding, dangerous job.
Forgive me sir, if you dont impress on me the same ......motivation?
In all though, good luck with your chosen dream of that widebody passenger jet; i have deep respect for all who choose that most grossly undervalued of careers these days.
Please though, just have a truthfull look at yourself, what you have to offer, and give an honest assesment of how you feel you should achieve this.
Its a heartache saver in the long run.
Some fantastic free advice so far from Scroggs and the lads, but I feel another mouth adding the point will not go amiss, if for no other reason than your attitude is still coming across as somewhat amiss.
Although my experience is with another branch of the forces who fly primarily helo's and a rather unique F.J.; i can ASSURE you that if you present yourself to the board in the manner you have on THIS board, you WILL be shown the door my friend.
That is not meant as a personal comment; just an honest observation.
At my time of leaving service, i was seeing applications for pilot commissions from chaps with some seriously complex degree's; who had already either completed the PPL or who had built significant hours towards this achievement. Most also had good "all rounder teamwork" backgrounds of sport and so on, and most could verify their interest in the services right back to the time they spent as children in cadet forces.
In other words, they were candidates who had geared their entire life to date to the goal of strapping on a fast jet and busting through the 1200ft cloudbase above the carrier to go do a difficult, demanding, dangerous job.
Forgive me sir, if you dont impress on me the same ......motivation?
In all though, good luck with your chosen dream of that widebody passenger jet; i have deep respect for all who choose that most grossly undervalued of careers these days.
Please though, just have a truthfull look at yourself, what you have to offer, and give an honest assesment of how you feel you should achieve this.
Its a heartache saver in the long run.
Quite right, mbfc, A320_Murray, you MUST show considerably greater motivation to be accepted. When did you first want to fly a military jet? I trace my enthusiasm back to when I fired my first rocket from a Hawker Hunter - at the age of 5 across the floor of the Shrubbery Hotel in Ilminster under the friendly gaze of a Hunter pilot friend of my father. Well - it was actually only a red plastic toy Hunter! I was in the CCF at school (there wasn't an RAF section, unfortunately), did some gliding, applied for an RAF Scholarship at the age of 15 and was then taught to fly Cessna 150s for 30 hours 2 years later before going to Cranwell. What have you done to convince a prospective employer that you're genuinely motivated? Think hard - and act accordingly. Best of luck though, mate!
If you do apply:
1. Aim to join as a pilot. Nothing else. Period.
2. Make it your ambition to fly TypHoon or F35. If I were you, I'd go for F35!
3. If you get downstreamed to ME, go for any option you're offered.
4. Don't even think about the airlines until you're in your early-to-mid 30s with at least 2000 hrs.
5. It won't then cost much to obtain your ATPL. I did an IR in the VC10 for £578, the ATPL issue fee was another £176. Didn't need to take Air Law as I already had a UK professional licence which I was upgrading.
DO NOT make the mistake of thinking that the RAF is but a stepping stone to the airlines. Be prepared to give your all for 10-15 years, then if you want to go, the airline world will be your lobster!
If you do apply:
1. Aim to join as a pilot. Nothing else. Period.
2. Make it your ambition to fly TypHoon or F35. If I were you, I'd go for F35!
3. If you get downstreamed to ME, go for any option you're offered.
4. Don't even think about the airlines until you're in your early-to-mid 30s with at least 2000 hrs.
5. It won't then cost much to obtain your ATPL. I did an IR in the VC10 for £578, the ATPL issue fee was another £176. Didn't need to take Air Law as I already had a UK professional licence which I was upgrading.
DO NOT make the mistake of thinking that the RAF is but a stepping stone to the airlines. Be prepared to give your all for 10-15 years, then if you want to go, the airline world will be your lobster!
Last edited by BEagle; 8th Nov 2002 at 10:31.
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Sorry buzzc152, I have to correct you. While you are quite correct in that an RAF pilot is, at least theoretically, an officer first and a pilot second, as a recruiter I want a candidate that wants to fly above all else. The bloody hard work required for the three years or so that it takes to train a pilot mitigates against someone who would be quite happy being on the ground doing something else. BEags is quite right: 'pilot or nothing' is the way to go.
PS. Avoid those VC10 thingies like the plague. Some very unsavoury characters inhabit their many dark shadows
PS. Avoid those VC10 thingies like the plague. Some very unsavoury characters inhabit their many dark shadows
Training book
BUZZC152, the book you are thinking of is probably 'COMBAT READY' by David Mason. Published by Airlife, it covers OASC, IOT at RAFC Cranwell, Bulldog (shows how old the book is!), Firefly, Tucano, Hawk, and the Harrier GR7 OCU. Each chapter describes each stage of training in minute detail: a good read. (And no , I don't work for the publishers!)
A320 Murray, what stage of life are you in? Doing your GCSEs/A-levels? At uni? UAS stude? We would be interested to know .
A320 Murray, what stage of life are you in? Doing your GCSEs/A-levels? At uni? UAS stude? We would be interested to know .
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Hello,
Thanks, I am studying at High School right now, with my A-Levels next year. I understand what you are all saying, I don't want to do anything else other than Fly! I would think of myself as a hard-working individule - I have been into flying since I was around 5-6, so that's around 10-11 years now, and have devoted alot to my school studies to ensure I obtain good marks, nothing else would do! I must say though that reading this post has really opened my eyes further. Thanks Guys!
Regards,
Matthew
Thanks, I am studying at High School right now, with my A-Levels next year. I understand what you are all saying, I don't want to do anything else other than Fly! I would think of myself as a hard-working individule - I have been into flying since I was around 5-6, so that's around 10-11 years now, and have devoted alot to my school studies to ensure I obtain good marks, nothing else would do! I must say though that reading this post has really opened my eyes further. Thanks Guys!
Regards,
Matthew