FAA?? JAA?? Commercial - Help!!!
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FAA?? JAA?? Commercial - Help!!!
Hi All!
Similar to a recent post, I am at a crossroads where I want to begin training for a commercial licence. I don't intend sitting on my butt any longer for an 'elusive' sponsorship from an airline and want to get things started under my own wings.
I have a JAA PPL, but i have spent considerable time building hours in the states and i kind of like the teaching/exam methods used in american flying schools (certainly the FAA exams seems easier to comprehend than some of the JAR questions i have seen).
I know no-one has a crystal ball - but would i really be making a mistake if i went with the FAA route or will JAR open more doors for me. Ive read about possible nightmare in converting a FAA to a JAR but id appreciate if anyone has any experience of this and can give me any guidence.
Similar to a recent post, I am at a crossroads where I want to begin training for a commercial licence. I don't intend sitting on my butt any longer for an 'elusive' sponsorship from an airline and want to get things started under my own wings.
I have a JAA PPL, but i have spent considerable time building hours in the states and i kind of like the teaching/exam methods used in american flying schools (certainly the FAA exams seems easier to comprehend than some of the JAR questions i have seen).
I know no-one has a crystal ball - but would i really be making a mistake if i went with the FAA route or will JAR open more doors for me. Ive read about possible nightmare in converting a FAA to a JAR but id appreciate if anyone has any experience of this and can give me any guidence.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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FunnyOnion,
Do you have the right to work in the US? (I assume you have the right to work in Europe - correct me if I'm wrong.) I'm sure this would make a big difference to the advice...
FFF
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Do you have the right to work in the US? (I assume you have the right to work in Europe - correct me if I'm wrong.) I'm sure this would make a big difference to the advice...
FFF
--------------
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I am in the process for obtaining right to work in the US, i am currently a european citizen but im just pre-empting the situation in that if all goes well, is the US Market a bad place to start?
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Er, you really don't want to fly commercially over here. If you think things are bad with the airlines in Europe then you'll be horrified at the state of the industry in the US. And for those very few that do get hired the pay is utterly derisory.
Anyway, I went stateside as when I was looking at changing career the JAR fiasco was turning out 100 per cent failures on some of the ATPLs at the time so this is the route I'm taking to give you an idea of an alternative to integrated / modular route in the UK:
USA:
JAA PPL
Hour building
FAA PPL/IR SE
FAA CPL/IR SE
FAA ME CPL/IR (add-on)
FAA CFI initial
Build hours for free instructing
And concurrently: distance learning for ATPL theory (this is the stage I'm at now)
Sit ATPL exams in UK; back to USA
10 hours (ish) prep JAA CPL (in Florida or Texas saving big bucks)
Perhaps top up the hours instructing for a bit
Then back to Blighty:
JAA IR conversion: 10 hours flying, 5 hours sim minimum.
MCC, CRM and LOFT.
Then back to the US to top-up the total time and multi time if necessary, and visa permitting.
The theory being with over 1,000 hours total time of which 100 multi and a fATPL with MCC, CRM and LOFT will give you a better chance of employment than the plethora of applicants with 250 hours total time with an fATPL and expired IR. And you'll have both FAA and JAA professional licences which will give you more employment options (quite a few operators with N reg aircraft in the UK now). Downside: minimal flight experience in the UK. But that all said, if nobody is hiring, then nobody is hiring, and 5,000 hours PIC Concorde won't help.
I know of a handful of French and British citizens who got permanent residency in the US who are flying commercially and without exception none of them are happy. One (flying heavy metal for a major) is so disheartened he's started going through the JAR notes so that he can work back home.
So my advice would be to do none of this. I walked away from a six figure salary and three quarters of a million dollars in qualifying stock options to change career as an airline pilot--just in time for September the 11th and very possibly Gulf War II to break out.
Still, you have to laugh.
Anyway, I went stateside as when I was looking at changing career the JAR fiasco was turning out 100 per cent failures on some of the ATPLs at the time so this is the route I'm taking to give you an idea of an alternative to integrated / modular route in the UK:
USA:
JAA PPL
Hour building
FAA PPL/IR SE
FAA CPL/IR SE
FAA ME CPL/IR (add-on)
FAA CFI initial
Build hours for free instructing
And concurrently: distance learning for ATPL theory (this is the stage I'm at now)
Sit ATPL exams in UK; back to USA
10 hours (ish) prep JAA CPL (in Florida or Texas saving big bucks)
Perhaps top up the hours instructing for a bit
Then back to Blighty:
JAA IR conversion: 10 hours flying, 5 hours sim minimum.
MCC, CRM and LOFT.
Then back to the US to top-up the total time and multi time if necessary, and visa permitting.
The theory being with over 1,000 hours total time of which 100 multi and a fATPL with MCC, CRM and LOFT will give you a better chance of employment than the plethora of applicants with 250 hours total time with an fATPL and expired IR. And you'll have both FAA and JAA professional licences which will give you more employment options (quite a few operators with N reg aircraft in the UK now). Downside: minimal flight experience in the UK. But that all said, if nobody is hiring, then nobody is hiring, and 5,000 hours PIC Concorde won't help.
I know of a handful of French and British citizens who got permanent residency in the US who are flying commercially and without exception none of them are happy. One (flying heavy metal for a major) is so disheartened he's started going through the JAR notes so that he can work back home.
So my advice would be to do none of this. I walked away from a six figure salary and three quarters of a million dollars in qualifying stock options to change career as an airline pilot--just in time for September the 11th and very possibly Gulf War II to break out.
Still, you have to laugh.
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Lock Wire,
Cheers for that - probably your account has given me the best insight at the moment. I guess i still have my rose-tinted glasses on from flying PPL in Florida .
Comments from others would suggest that i really have to consider going for the JAR route also, although i really do love the lifestyle, people etc in the states - money would not be my reason for hopping accross the pond for work in the UK - im currently living in Ireland and i have NO HOPE for gaining employment with the big guys here - although i could really see myself flying for corporate jets (ireland have a few companies who have 'N' registered aircraft).
If i did go down the JAR route any recommendations on schools in the US?
I hope you end up where you want to be - Don't let that small thing such as war stop you........... Keep Laughling Lock Wire!!!
Cheers for that - probably your account has given me the best insight at the moment. I guess i still have my rose-tinted glasses on from flying PPL in Florida .
Comments from others would suggest that i really have to consider going for the JAR route also, although i really do love the lifestyle, people etc in the states - money would not be my reason for hopping accross the pond for work in the UK - im currently living in Ireland and i have NO HOPE for gaining employment with the big guys here - although i could really see myself flying for corporate jets (ireland have a few companies who have 'N' registered aircraft).
If i did go down the JAR route any recommendations on schools in the US?
I hope you end up where you want to be - Don't let that small thing such as war stop you........... Keep Laughling Lock Wire!!!
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Yep - nothing going in the U.S. right now . I've got FAA & JAA ATPL , airline background in U.K. , instructor tickets for both U.S. & U.K. , plenty of hours plus the right to work in both the U.S. & U.K. & I can tell you from bitter experience that I have found not one opportunity on either side of the atlantic in the last 10 months . The sad thing is that I have contacts in various airlines , flight schools & corporate operations but all to no avail .
What is really depressing is that I went to get a checkout on a cub ( cheap ) the other day just to get up in the air again . The instructor seemed quite upbeat about the state of the industry so out of interest I asked him what experience he had - roughly a fifth of mine ; I just shut up .
I'm seriously contemplating attending a baggage handling seminar in a couple of weeks because I'm having trouble finding any kind of work right now & at least it's related to flying !
If things are going to improve it will have to be in a big way before I'm convinced - good luck .
What is really depressing is that I went to get a checkout on a cub ( cheap ) the other day just to get up in the air again . The instructor seemed quite upbeat about the state of the industry so out of interest I asked him what experience he had - roughly a fifth of mine ; I just shut up .
I'm seriously contemplating attending a baggage handling seminar in a couple of weeks because I'm having trouble finding any kind of work right now & at least it's related to flying !
If things are going to improve it will have to be in a big way before I'm convinced - good luck .
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FunnyOnion,
If you're a European citizen and you've got US permanent residency pending and you're undecided where / what you want to go and do then perhaps it would make sense to get both FAA and JAA professional licences which will permit to you fly N-reg aircraft anywhere and European (JAA member) reg aircraft anywhere, increasing your options.
Gossip (and really it is largely unqualified rumours and gossip) suggests that in 12 to 24 months carriers may (or may not) be in a position to start recruiting low-hour fATPLs. In which case perhaps it would be worth looking at all options at this time.
For example, take advantage of the new conversion regs, re: conversion of foreign non-JAA ICAO professional licences. For what it costs to get a 250 fATPL in the UK modular route, you can spend 90 per cent of your time stateside now and get 1,000+ hours, JAR fATPL, FAA ATP (or at least ME CPL/IR, in lieu of 1,500 hours), MEII. Seems like a 'no brainer' to me, and if you want to fly professionally in the US you'll need the hours to meet the Part 135 crew minima anyway.
Indeed, thinking about it, I'm suprised that so many would-be professional pilot students fail in their due dilligence in regard to not only all possible routes to an ATPL (which considering the required investment really ought to go without saying), but also the state of play in the industry. Which is desperate.
Also, after spending a couple of years in the US you'll know whether you want to live here or not. I've been here two years and I've had the time of my life, but I've decided that ultimately it's not really my cup of tea.
Personally the only reason I'm pressing forward without hesitation is because the alternative for me would be to go back to doing what I used to do, and although being an executive director of a plc remunerates particularly well it is burn-out stuff and the stress is almost beyond imagination. And I ain't playing that game again. So my advice is to take the time to do the research, make a risk assessment, weigh up the pros and cons, best case and worst case scenarios, and make a hard-nosed decision. For me, at 31, I just want to do something I might actually enjoy doing for a living whilst I still have the energy.
Anyway, Johnny 7's observations are more qualified than mine. But respectfully you should be under no illusions how bad things are right now--probably the worst it's been in Europe for 20 years. If we were all rational we'd be looking at what 60 or 70 grand could buy us as an alternative to a career as a professional pilot (which, incidentally, is not even considered a profession in the US). An MBA from a reputable school such as Harvard or LSE, law school perhaps, medical school, all have infinitely better career possibilities. But neither alternative get me aroused particulary.
And on that note, I'm off to take a one-block stroll from my apartment to the beach to watch the sun set over the pacific. And then it's off to a local bar to flirt in vain with some of our female colonial cousins. T-shirt weather here. God I love this place
If you're a European citizen and you've got US permanent residency pending and you're undecided where / what you want to go and do then perhaps it would make sense to get both FAA and JAA professional licences which will permit to you fly N-reg aircraft anywhere and European (JAA member) reg aircraft anywhere, increasing your options.
Gossip (and really it is largely unqualified rumours and gossip) suggests that in 12 to 24 months carriers may (or may not) be in a position to start recruiting low-hour fATPLs. In which case perhaps it would be worth looking at all options at this time.
For example, take advantage of the new conversion regs, re: conversion of foreign non-JAA ICAO professional licences. For what it costs to get a 250 fATPL in the UK modular route, you can spend 90 per cent of your time stateside now and get 1,000+ hours, JAR fATPL, FAA ATP (or at least ME CPL/IR, in lieu of 1,500 hours), MEII. Seems like a 'no brainer' to me, and if you want to fly professionally in the US you'll need the hours to meet the Part 135 crew minima anyway.
Indeed, thinking about it, I'm suprised that so many would-be professional pilot students fail in their due dilligence in regard to not only all possible routes to an ATPL (which considering the required investment really ought to go without saying), but also the state of play in the industry. Which is desperate.
Also, after spending a couple of years in the US you'll know whether you want to live here or not. I've been here two years and I've had the time of my life, but I've decided that ultimately it's not really my cup of tea.
Personally the only reason I'm pressing forward without hesitation is because the alternative for me would be to go back to doing what I used to do, and although being an executive director of a plc remunerates particularly well it is burn-out stuff and the stress is almost beyond imagination. And I ain't playing that game again. So my advice is to take the time to do the research, make a risk assessment, weigh up the pros and cons, best case and worst case scenarios, and make a hard-nosed decision. For me, at 31, I just want to do something I might actually enjoy doing for a living whilst I still have the energy.
Anyway, Johnny 7's observations are more qualified than mine. But respectfully you should be under no illusions how bad things are right now--probably the worst it's been in Europe for 20 years. If we were all rational we'd be looking at what 60 or 70 grand could buy us as an alternative to a career as a professional pilot (which, incidentally, is not even considered a profession in the US). An MBA from a reputable school such as Harvard or LSE, law school perhaps, medical school, all have infinitely better career possibilities. But neither alternative get me aroused particulary.
And on that note, I'm off to take a one-block stroll from my apartment to the beach to watch the sun set over the pacific. And then it's off to a local bar to flirt in vain with some of our female colonial cousins. T-shirt weather here. God I love this place
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Lock Wire
As usual i have to say thanks for the bucketfull of information, having only been a 'ppruner' for a few days i have learnt more 'truthfull' accounts about the life above the cloouds than any training schools prospectus ever will... My regards also to Jonny 7 , his route may not be the best solution but its still one im seriously considering.
im currently sitting here doing my 9-5er, with this forced grimmace of a smile that says " Im Loving My Job - NOT" You can only get excited about I.T for soooooooo long. And sure if i had 70G lurking about what would i be doing with it.... paying the martgage off - I don't think so
I am under no elusion on the state of affairs at the moment, however current job/lifestyle just does not do it for me, i set out to fly and im going to damn well make sure i get something. Maybe it wont work out the way i imagined it when everything was rosy in the garden, but if i at least get the old tootsies in the door and things do start to improve in the next 3/4 years, then at least im up at the starting block with everyone else and not just strapping on the learning goggles .........
Certainly your suggestion on having both makes sense, i will be researching further into costs, nervous breakdowns etc.
Tell me, your suggestion on going stateside and getting 1'000+ JAR fATPL, FAA ATP, any schools you could recommend ??
Well i have to finish now and go and earn some crust for all this dreaming, and No i can't go for a stroll around the block in t-shirt weather to see the sun set, the best i can do is run around the apartment block in my wellies and umbrella and watch the black rain clouds get bigger and bigger here in Dublin.....still nice weather for ducks !!!!!
Talk to Ya......
As usual i have to say thanks for the bucketfull of information, having only been a 'ppruner' for a few days i have learnt more 'truthfull' accounts about the life above the cloouds than any training schools prospectus ever will... My regards also to Jonny 7 , his route may not be the best solution but its still one im seriously considering.
im currently sitting here doing my 9-5er, with this forced grimmace of a smile that says " Im Loving My Job - NOT" You can only get excited about I.T for soooooooo long. And sure if i had 70G lurking about what would i be doing with it.... paying the martgage off - I don't think so
I am under no elusion on the state of affairs at the moment, however current job/lifestyle just does not do it for me, i set out to fly and im going to damn well make sure i get something. Maybe it wont work out the way i imagined it when everything was rosy in the garden, but if i at least get the old tootsies in the door and things do start to improve in the next 3/4 years, then at least im up at the starting block with everyone else and not just strapping on the learning goggles .........
Certainly your suggestion on having both makes sense, i will be researching further into costs, nervous breakdowns etc.
Tell me, your suggestion on going stateside and getting 1'000+ JAR fATPL, FAA ATP, any schools you could recommend ??
Well i have to finish now and go and earn some crust for all this dreaming, and No i can't go for a stroll around the block in t-shirt weather to see the sun set, the best i can do is run around the apartment block in my wellies and umbrella and watch the black rain clouds get bigger and bigger here in Dublin.....still nice weather for ducks !!!!!
Talk to Ya......
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Must have been having one of my low days yesterday - they are so more frequent now . I used to be so keen & positive about flying - I suppose it was this drive that got me there in the first place . However , as many of my former colleagues will testify , after a while you realise that it really is just another job at the end of the day - until you don't do it anymore & appreciate just how great a job it really is . My situation is not good for my family & I at the moment but that doesn't mean things won't improve . After all , I'm out of work & so any employment appears attractive . In addition , I know so many people in a similar position who are at least as qualified as I am - the competition is still as fierce as when I started - which incidentally , was during the recession of the early 90's when things were similar to now . I was naive & ignorant of employment prospects then but I had a dream & set off to fulfil it . I was lucky & the important thing is that you could be too . If nothing else , I've had a great 10 years in the business , met some great people , made some great friends & had a great deal of fun in the process . And I've ended up Stateside where , as said , the weather right now is most agreeable 
My advice would be to start JAA ( on the grounds that it's more difficult ) then convert what you can & complete the FAA equivalent . By all means take advantage of the U.S. for the weather ,relatively inexpensive a/c hire & not least the scenery . Meet & make as many contacts as you can & never lose sight of your objectives .
I'm afraid I might have done ( temporarily ) so feel free to ignore the rambings of an individual with too much time on his hands !
Thats a thought , maybe we could have a ' Hasbeens ' forum ?
My advice would be to start JAA ( on the grounds that it's more difficult ) then convert what you can & complete the FAA equivalent . By all means take advantage of the U.S. for the weather ,relatively inexpensive a/c hire & not least the scenery . Meet & make as many contacts as you can & never lose sight of your objectives .
I'm afraid I might have done ( temporarily ) so feel free to ignore the rambings of an individual with too much time on his hands !
Thats a thought , maybe we could have a ' Hasbeens ' forum ?
