easy being a bit naughty
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 400
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From: Lost
easy being a bit naughty
Word on the street is easy have put the BFS base expansion on hold and have told several pilots it LPL or lump it. All this 2 weeks before they start with the company. No - come back later. Not exactly caring, sharing eh?
Once again makes me glad I biffed the sim ride.
Once again makes me glad I biffed the sim ride.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 104
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From: EU
rumour indicates that future recruits at Easy will not be told their basing until 4 wks prior to their course date. If true that'll put a lot of people off. Or perhaps they are planning to pitch their recruitment at the less experienced end of the market where people will go almost anywhere for a shiny jet.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 623
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From: UK
The more of you fussy whingers the better in my book - it lowers the competition for folk like me who realise we are useless nobodies and to get a chance flying for a firm like Easy or Ryanair is a damn good gig.
They do not owe you anything.
They do not owe you anything.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 340
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From: Saaaaaaffffhampton
Hate to agree
Prob 30 has a point, if i was lucky enough to get that job i would go anywhere, you can rent, i mean after all the pay isnt that bad. Keep your home where it is?
All the same a lot of people would take any chance to get in, so If Easy Jet are reading this , contact me!!!!!!
Hey a little creeping never hurt anyone
All the same a lot of people would take any chance to get in, so If Easy Jet are reading this , contact me!!!!!!
Hey a little creeping never hurt anyone
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 61
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From: London
Got to say part of me agrees with Prob 30. We are all getting a bit sick of easy & Ryanair pilots whinging on about their pay & conditions. You have an option guys: you can always leave. Why not come & fly for a turboprop operator, either night freighting or regional pax. You will still not get anything like "roster stability"; you will night stop in completely s**t accommodation; your pay will probably be halved & sector pay will be non existant. If anyone of you is interested in job swapping with me then please send me an email. (I'll be happy to work from any base.) Don't think I'll have too many takers, do you?
On the other hand, Prob 30, we should not just let companies do the dirty on us in times of job shortages so perhaps a little moaning is allowed so long as it's in context i.e. realistic: then terms & conditions can be improved, otherwise we may just all fly as a very expensive hobby.
On the other hand, Prob 30, we should not just let companies do the dirty on us in times of job shortages so perhaps a little moaning is allowed so long as it's in context i.e. realistic: then terms & conditions can be improved, otherwise we may just all fly as a very expensive hobby.
Terrier
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 564
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From: moonbase alpha
I have something controversial to say, if you do not like it, go think about it and come back with a sensible grown up response.
Here goes:
A pilot is perfectly entitled to whinge about where they will be based. If you live near Luton for instance and want to join easyJet, because you have 3000 hours and a 737 rating you are an attractive proposition to them.
You have experience and a rating.
So, why should you turn up to interview at eJ and not be told where you are to be based? It stinks quite frankly, and no pilot worth a bean would consider it.
easyJet will continue having a disaffected pilot workforce if they persist in the high handed manner they adopt all the time.
Equally, no wannabee should sell themselves short, because our T & C's are being eroded all the time. Perhaps a more realistic outlook would be to try and protect the fifty grand you have just spent at OATS?!?
Too many wannabees do not know what they have let themselves in for when training, and comments like:
"I will work for free" or " I will go anywhere" are really quite frankly ones from the naive desperado.
You came into the business to enjoy decent wages and lifestlye didn't you? So, why throw it away by taking sh?t terms on your first job? All that does is hurt everyone, and you will end up working for sh?t terms all your life then......
Get real. I know there are not many jobs about, but don't spoil the ones that there are by offering stupid things.......
Here goes:
A pilot is perfectly entitled to whinge about where they will be based. If you live near Luton for instance and want to join easyJet, because you have 3000 hours and a 737 rating you are an attractive proposition to them.
You have experience and a rating.
So, why should you turn up to interview at eJ and not be told where you are to be based? It stinks quite frankly, and no pilot worth a bean would consider it.
easyJet will continue having a disaffected pilot workforce if they persist in the high handed manner they adopt all the time.
Equally, no wannabee should sell themselves short, because our T & C's are being eroded all the time. Perhaps a more realistic outlook would be to try and protect the fifty grand you have just spent at OATS?!?
Too many wannabees do not know what they have let themselves in for when training, and comments like:
"I will work for free" or " I will go anywhere" are really quite frankly ones from the naive desperado.
You came into the business to enjoy decent wages and lifestlye didn't you? So, why throw it away by taking sh?t terms on your first job? All that does is hurt everyone, and you will end up working for sh?t terms all your life then......
Get real. I know there are not many jobs about, but don't spoil the ones that there are by offering stupid things.......
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 664
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From: HON121º/14 NM
I agree with Tailscrape.
We as pilots are highly motivated to do our job, but so are people in other professions (doctors, lawyers etc). You will appreciate that they will find similar cause for greviances with their terms and conditions as we as pilots do. We, in addition, mostly paid for our own training etc etc.
If we want to be considered as proper professionals we should not be mucked about by airline managers who all too often seem to have forgotten what it is like to be at our end of the food chain. Comments like I will fly for chips are easy to make, but very soon your tune will change. Very soon. Trust me. My first job was pretty much for chips, and I was treated disgracefully.
What upset me was that I was treated like someone who should be grateful to the manager of the establishment, rather than someone who was supplying a skill to contribute to his business. The low pay I could (just about) cope with. There were plenty of other pilots, as he pointed out to me one day, so I called his bluff and gave my notice. I was able to go and earn a decent wage in a different industry where my skill would be appropriately rewarded, and more importantly, I was treated like a skilled professional and human. So it delayed my start to an airline career, but not by much, and I retained my dignity. What happened to them I neither know nor care.
There is no reason for professionals in any industry to accept bad management or poor T&Cs, and those who say that they will bend over backwards to get into the industry will gain little respect from peers, seniors and managers. They need us as much as we need them. Why do you think all the ads in Flight and elsewhere ask for type rated crews rather than saying that jobs will go to the lowest bidder!?
I appreciate the desperation of wannabes - I was there, but good will don't pay the rent. And what do you think the public would think of being flown by people on Youth Opportunity schemes or unemployment benefit wages? They expect to be flown by professionals on professional wages: if they knew the truth about our wages as they are they would probably fall off their stools in shock.
prob30: "The more of you fussy whingers the better in my book - it lowers the competition for folk like me who realise we are useless nobodies and to get a chance flying for a firm like Easy or Ryanair is a damn good gig.
They do not owe you anything." err actually they do. Or why else would they offer the salaries they do, and have a listing on the London Stock Exchange. They are not the Mission Aviation Fellowship you know. If you wish to subsidise their buisnesses and the life styles of the management send me your bank account number: I will be happy to spend it for you. These guys are not fussy wingers, but just ordinary people with ordinary lives who face the same pressures as anyone else. if you haven't had to conduct a long distance relationship yet, give it a go. It isn't easy. Add into that folk with children etc: why shouldn't they know early on where they will be based.
In conclusion, wannabes, do what you have to do to get into the industry, but keep in mind you are professionals not casual labourers. You have a right to be treated as such, and to be paid as such. And you should behave as such. It will be hard to find an employer in the early days who will fulfill all those criteria, but there's no harm in standing up for your own dignity.
We as pilots are highly motivated to do our job, but so are people in other professions (doctors, lawyers etc). You will appreciate that they will find similar cause for greviances with their terms and conditions as we as pilots do. We, in addition, mostly paid for our own training etc etc.
If we want to be considered as proper professionals we should not be mucked about by airline managers who all too often seem to have forgotten what it is like to be at our end of the food chain. Comments like I will fly for chips are easy to make, but very soon your tune will change. Very soon. Trust me. My first job was pretty much for chips, and I was treated disgracefully.
What upset me was that I was treated like someone who should be grateful to the manager of the establishment, rather than someone who was supplying a skill to contribute to his business. The low pay I could (just about) cope with. There were plenty of other pilots, as he pointed out to me one day, so I called his bluff and gave my notice. I was able to go and earn a decent wage in a different industry where my skill would be appropriately rewarded, and more importantly, I was treated like a skilled professional and human. So it delayed my start to an airline career, but not by much, and I retained my dignity. What happened to them I neither know nor care.
There is no reason for professionals in any industry to accept bad management or poor T&Cs, and those who say that they will bend over backwards to get into the industry will gain little respect from peers, seniors and managers. They need us as much as we need them. Why do you think all the ads in Flight and elsewhere ask for type rated crews rather than saying that jobs will go to the lowest bidder!?
I appreciate the desperation of wannabes - I was there, but good will don't pay the rent. And what do you think the public would think of being flown by people on Youth Opportunity schemes or unemployment benefit wages? They expect to be flown by professionals on professional wages: if they knew the truth about our wages as they are they would probably fall off their stools in shock.
prob30: "The more of you fussy whingers the better in my book - it lowers the competition for folk like me who realise we are useless nobodies and to get a chance flying for a firm like Easy or Ryanair is a damn good gig.
They do not owe you anything." err actually they do. Or why else would they offer the salaries they do, and have a listing on the London Stock Exchange. They are not the Mission Aviation Fellowship you know. If you wish to subsidise their buisnesses and the life styles of the management send me your bank account number: I will be happy to spend it for you. These guys are not fussy wingers, but just ordinary people with ordinary lives who face the same pressures as anyone else. if you haven't had to conduct a long distance relationship yet, give it a go. It isn't easy. Add into that folk with children etc: why shouldn't they know early on where they will be based.
In conclusion, wannabes, do what you have to do to get into the industry, but keep in mind you are professionals not casual labourers. You have a right to be treated as such, and to be paid as such. And you should behave as such. It will be hard to find an employer in the early days who will fulfill all those criteria, but there's no harm in standing up for your own dignity.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 340
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From: Saaaaaaffffhampton
Good God
Well , prostitution !!!! bit strong, you may have heard of people flying for free, actually i do, and i have a full time job also so i can build these hours, you may call it prostitution, i call it good sense as i get to fly a £200 + per/hr aircraft for nothing, So you call it one thing i call it another, I dont have to go get a Instructors rating at the cost of around £6000 and yes for a Jet Job i would go anywhere.
Some of us like the money but my main aim is to fly, because if some of you have forgot, some of us Love that part of it.
Besides if you have a Type rating and you have a good job and you like your company regardless if you get an extra £3 - 6 k a year is it worth the trouble, better the devil you know, and if the potter is in a turbo prop position , well done mate, love to be there with you.
As i came into this profession to fly thats what i intend to do, there is always a bottome rung and there are always opportunities in which to better yourselves, if there that bad dont work for them, if thats going to be there policy , dont apply!! but i will.
If it takes some low paid jobs before i get the right one, then so beit, i am realistic , i am from the real world and see the so called CPL/IR people churned out who think are walking straight into a jet job because a large school tells them ,"if you are good ill recommend you", and we open doors.
I expect this unless I am damn lucky, right place right time, which the lucky , fortunate few are!!
Those that are in jobs, maybe you should remember how difficult it is, how the recent events knocked us about. As potter says swap jobs with me i know where id rather be!!!!!
Firestorm, I agree, decent managers are a bonus but i also say there are good and bad everywhere, this is a company culture.
And I never suggested at any point that you should not be treated like professionals, just a realistic person trying to get a foothold.
Good points though
Some of us like the money but my main aim is to fly, because if some of you have forgot, some of us Love that part of it.
Besides if you have a Type rating and you have a good job and you like your company regardless if you get an extra £3 - 6 k a year is it worth the trouble, better the devil you know, and if the potter is in a turbo prop position , well done mate, love to be there with you.
As i came into this profession to fly thats what i intend to do, there is always a bottome rung and there are always opportunities in which to better yourselves, if there that bad dont work for them, if thats going to be there policy , dont apply!! but i will.
If it takes some low paid jobs before i get the right one, then so beit, i am realistic , i am from the real world and see the so called CPL/IR people churned out who think are walking straight into a jet job because a large school tells them ,"if you are good ill recommend you", and we open doors.
I expect this unless I am damn lucky, right place right time, which the lucky , fortunate few are!!
Those that are in jobs, maybe you should remember how difficult it is, how the recent events knocked us about. As potter says swap jobs with me i know where id rather be!!!!!
Firestorm, I agree, decent managers are a bonus but i also say there are good and bad everywhere, this is a company culture.
And I never suggested at any point that you should not be treated like professionals, just a realistic person trying to get a foothold.
Good points though
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
I'm planning on starting an integrated ATPL course in Janurary. Obviously the pay is an important part in getting a job at the end. But equally I realize that the more hours you have, the more jobs will be open to you. For this reason, at the very start of my career, I'll take whatever I can get to start building up those hours.
Moderator
Joined: Dec 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,929
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From: Suffolk UK
Under normal circumstances, the RHS of a 737 is not a starter job. Those that would normally be considered for such posts usually have family, mortgage and other responsibilities. To not know where your potential base is would be a serious disincentive to join such a company. As EZ seem to want 1500 hours and turbine experience just now (which is about the norm historically for such a job), they are likely to miss out on many of those who would otherwise fit their requirements. Bit stupid, really, I would have thought.
As for those of you who will work anytime, anywhere for a pittance (or less), you should think about the effect such a policy will have on your later life. You will, at some point, wish to be treated as a mature professional with some considerable value. To get that, you need to have some sense of your own value now. Do not undersell yourselves.
As for those of you who will work anytime, anywhere for a pittance (or less), you should think about the effect such a policy will have on your later life. You will, at some point, wish to be treated as a mature professional with some considerable value. To get that, you need to have some sense of your own value now. Do not undersell yourselves.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
Posts: 4,910
Likes: 184
From: Duit On Mon Dei
Firestorm and Scroggs, very good posts.
I will not fly for free. Never have. I am a professional and I expect to be treated as one.
You'll find many people whinge because the job they signed up to do has been changed without their say so. Would you like that to happen? You can only accept the "company needs some belt tightening" for so long.......
I will not fly for free. Never have. I am a professional and I expect to be treated as one.
You'll find many people whinge because the job they signed up to do has been changed without their say so. Would you like that to happen? You can only accept the "company needs some belt tightening" for so long.......
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,543
Likes: 10
From: Samsonite Avenue
The low costs (Easy and Ryanair!) must take into account that they are employing humans who have a life outside the aircraft. Treating applicants in this manner is far from satisfactory.
I will go anywhere to fly and I will fly anything, however in return I expect to be treated with some degree of respect and professionalism.
So Easyjet and Ryanair - you are letting the side down. Money is by no means everything. I would rather be earning just enough and fly piston twins for a company that treats its employees properly then working for an outfit that gives you a 737 and plenty of £££ but does not treat you in the manner that other highly skilled professionals in other industries expect!
Even third world piston and turboprop operators can have the decency to tell you where you are based in plenty of time before you need to move and will pay for your type rating (Ryanair take note!)! Finally they will appreciate that you are a human being and that your lifestyle needs to be considered. You would not simply be a number in a system!
I will go anywhere to fly and I will fly anything, however in return I expect to be treated with some degree of respect and professionalism.
So Easyjet and Ryanair - you are letting the side down. Money is by no means everything. I would rather be earning just enough and fly piston twins for a company that treats its employees properly then working for an outfit that gives you a 737 and plenty of £££ but does not treat you in the manner that other highly skilled professionals in other industries expect!
Even third world piston and turboprop operators can have the decency to tell you where you are based in plenty of time before you need to move and will pay for your type rating (Ryanair take note!)! Finally they will appreciate that you are a human being and that your lifestyle needs to be considered. You would not simply be a number in a system!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Tailscrape, Reddo, Scroggs,...etc couldn't agree more.
Carbonfibre
I think, with more experience, you will realise that most of the professional pilot you will come across, still enjoy flying.
Soon you will also understand that the career path you have chosen is not about flying for fun anymore (Get a Pitts Special if that's what you want) but instead, it is about doing a demanding job in a fast changing industry where one day you can be at the top and the next minute well below ground level (figure of speech of course).
So when you will be going to the airport, it won't be to have fun but to do a job you enjoy and work for your employer.
Now that's when you will cease to be a wannabe (no offence, we have all been there) and you will hopefully be recognised as the true professional you are.
As such, you will work to the highests standards and in return you will expect to be treated with a certain degree of respect and not like a beggar.
I too have been there, I mean there was a time I thought I would go anywhere and would fly for anyone just to be in the air.
Well, I was only kidding myself because the day it happened, the day I flew for that outfit who had no aspiration towards passenger and crew safety, I paused for a minute, thought about what I was doing and..... resigned.
I had just chosen to be unemployed rather than having anything to do with a company with no respect whatsoever for safety which made that bigger and faster A/C I was flying, appear totally irrelevant.
Quite rightly so in my opinion.
Basing is an important issue for many and often it is a decisive factor for experienced crew. Changing the deal is indeed, very naughty.
Carbonfibre
Some of us like the money but my main aim is to fly, because if some of you have forgot, some of us Love that part of it.
Soon you will also understand that the career path you have chosen is not about flying for fun anymore (Get a Pitts Special if that's what you want) but instead, it is about doing a demanding job in a fast changing industry where one day you can be at the top and the next minute well below ground level (figure of speech of course).
So when you will be going to the airport, it won't be to have fun but to do a job you enjoy and work for your employer.
Now that's when you will cease to be a wannabe (no offence, we have all been there) and you will hopefully be recognised as the true professional you are.
As such, you will work to the highests standards and in return you will expect to be treated with a certain degree of respect and not like a beggar.
I too have been there, I mean there was a time I thought I would go anywhere and would fly for anyone just to be in the air.
Well, I was only kidding myself because the day it happened, the day I flew for that outfit who had no aspiration towards passenger and crew safety, I paused for a minute, thought about what I was doing and..... resigned.
I had just chosen to be unemployed rather than having anything to do with a company with no respect whatsoever for safety which made that bigger and faster A/C I was flying, appear totally irrelevant.
Quite rightly so in my opinion.
Basing is an important issue for many and often it is a decisive factor for experienced crew. Changing the deal is indeed, very naughty.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
From: EU
When I was a wannabe I moved for my first job. I moved for my second too. I almost moved for my third. Now I have umpteen thousand hours on decent types I don't want to move. I wouldn't move anywhere unless there was sufficient incentive to do so. Most of those guys in BFS are only headin to EZY for a bit more money on their doorstep..can't fault that. Many of them are already on Jets on their doorstep. To be told 2 weeks before you start at EZY that you won't be on your doorstep despite the fact your contract states you will, patently sucks.
For the majority it will be too late to retract their notice. The EZY captains of tomorrow are the seriously pissed off first officers of today. Not a good way to run a Flt Ops department.
For the majority it will be too late to retract their notice. The EZY captains of tomorrow are the seriously pissed off first officers of today. Not a good way to run a Flt Ops department.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 623
Likes: 0
From: UK
For the record, I am refering to low houred guys as this is a wannabees forum.
Anyone can chuck enough money at a flight school and pop out the other side with an fATPL, if they have the money and the determination. I honestly believe that. The training that we have been given is not alltogether relevant to flying Jet Aircraft. We have no experience of auto pilot systems or flight management computers, EFIS, susbtantial multi crew training, learning to monitor the aircraft and staying in the loop. We will/should have done an MCC which gives you some indication of what lies ahead but that is about it.
So when Young Graduate with 200ish hours knocks on the door of EasyJet with his blue book in his sticky paw and asks Stelios to put him in the RHS of a 737, is it any wonder that either you get turned away, or if you are very lucky you get offered the oppertunity to prove yourself. If you go for Ryanair you have to pay for it. Why should they risk their money on you?
So Stelios gives you the oppertunity, you get given a base etc etc, they change their mind, then you turn around and complain it isnt what It says on the tin. Cheeky Barsket! You do not belong in a RHS. You havent been trained for it (prior to type rating which is all the experience they have to go on before they give you the job). You are therefore as I said in my first post "Useless". Or should I say Useless with the potential to be less Useless after training!!
We can expect very little in return for our services other than our pay packet.
Is this unreasonable? NO. Is it understandable? Yes. is it Fair? ermmm. But when was the aviation business fair?
If anyone should be 'blamed' for all of this it is the CAA. I am not anti-CAA, but there is certainly a void between what you are trained to do to get an AIR TRANSPORT pilots licence to actually doing the job of Transporting punters, hence the attraction of CTC - the void fillers.
I am sure Stelios would look more favourably on us if we had spent £5 in a light aircraft then jumped into a 737 sim and put another £40K in the slot, rather than doing spiral dive recoveries and rate 1 turns for the same price.
Finally to the guys who accuse me of prostituting myself: firstly I am not paying to Fly, I am bending over backwards for the oppertunity to prove myself and in return I expect financial reward - call me a slut but I am not a whore.
Anyone can chuck enough money at a flight school and pop out the other side with an fATPL, if they have the money and the determination. I honestly believe that. The training that we have been given is not alltogether relevant to flying Jet Aircraft. We have no experience of auto pilot systems or flight management computers, EFIS, susbtantial multi crew training, learning to monitor the aircraft and staying in the loop. We will/should have done an MCC which gives you some indication of what lies ahead but that is about it.
So when Young Graduate with 200ish hours knocks on the door of EasyJet with his blue book in his sticky paw and asks Stelios to put him in the RHS of a 737, is it any wonder that either you get turned away, or if you are very lucky you get offered the oppertunity to prove yourself. If you go for Ryanair you have to pay for it. Why should they risk their money on you?
So Stelios gives you the oppertunity, you get given a base etc etc, they change their mind, then you turn around and complain it isnt what It says on the tin. Cheeky Barsket! You do not belong in a RHS. You havent been trained for it (prior to type rating which is all the experience they have to go on before they give you the job). You are therefore as I said in my first post "Useless". Or should I say Useless with the potential to be less Useless after training!!
We can expect very little in return for our services other than our pay packet.
Is this unreasonable? NO. Is it understandable? Yes. is it Fair? ermmm. But when was the aviation business fair?
If anyone should be 'blamed' for all of this it is the CAA. I am not anti-CAA, but there is certainly a void between what you are trained to do to get an AIR TRANSPORT pilots licence to actually doing the job of Transporting punters, hence the attraction of CTC - the void fillers.
I am sure Stelios would look more favourably on us if we had spent £5 in a light aircraft then jumped into a 737 sim and put another £40K in the slot, rather than doing spiral dive recoveries and rate 1 turns for the same price.
Finally to the guys who accuse me of prostituting myself: firstly I am not paying to Fly, I am bending over backwards for the oppertunity to prove myself and in return I expect financial reward - call me a slut but I am not a whore.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,543
Likes: 10
From: Samsonite Avenue
Prob 30
I understand what you are saying but pause for a moment and put yourself in the situation. I would be a very annoyed person if I was expecting to be based at LTN, for example, but to be told that you will be based in AMS. You have 4 weeks to sort out your new life in a foreign country and just to put in some salt into the wound..... my Dutch is nearly non existent! Right off to a great start and we have not even started the 737 course yet. So you start panicking in sorting out removals etc etc and hoping that things will slot into place. Now you have your 737 course where you need to give your 110% but if the accommodation side of things is not looking hopeful or family life is taking a strain then you will be going in on day one for the course with a heap of emotional and psychological baggage that needs to be left outside the class room! Far from suitable!!! Just imagine if the candidate is married with kids. Schooling plans go right out of the window and it would not surprise me if Mums and Dads would have a revolt on their hands if the kids were uprooted and taken away at short notice to a unexpected place! The wife has to sort her job as well as trying to help with selling the house and finding accommodation etc etc! I am still trying to keep a broad horizon because don't forget that there are low hours guys out there who are married with kids and this situation could quite easily apply to some wannabes. I think it would be bad enough for a single person to get things sorted out but it is a very tall order for a married couple with kids!
MCC training is adequate and can be very good in some cases - it all depends on who the FTO is! I was very lucky since I was on a great MCC course. You are not expected to have fingers that are waltzing across the FMC by the end of the week nor pulling off greasers in crosswinds in the sim. That is for the employer and not the FTO! The CAA don't want MCC training to be type specific or company specific. They would probably see the sim as a training tool and not really a training aid! You will therefore not be fully at ease with a types FMC, EFIS or systems until you actually join a company.
I have a relation of mine who sits in the left seat of a heavy and he is utterly appalled at the way Ryanair are conducting themselves when it comes to ripping people off for type ratings! Glad to see that someone who has been around the block a few times is thinking along the same path as I am! I have seen the poor way that Ryanair can treat its applicants. I have a mate whose treatment from Ryanair was far from acceptable, while he was applying to them - I think he is pleased that he is flying for BACX! Going onto the point of Ryanair
If you go for Ryanair you have to pay for it. Why should they risk their money on you?
Well why should I invest nearly £20K in them if this is the way they practice business. The sooner Ryanair are caught with their trousers down the better and I will be having a pint to celebrate that they have woken up to the real world!
We can expect very little in return for our services other than our pay packet.
I have to disagree - why do we have organisations like BALPA in nationwide use? In order to try and create a level playing field for us Pilots and in order to try and create fair working practices and to try and keep everyone happy (tough job!
) Getting your £££ hitting the bank at the end of the month is just part of what the employer should do for its employees. There is no point throwing woges of cash at unhappy workers is it?
I understand what you are saying but pause for a moment and put yourself in the situation. I would be a very annoyed person if I was expecting to be based at LTN, for example, but to be told that you will be based in AMS. You have 4 weeks to sort out your new life in a foreign country and just to put in some salt into the wound..... my Dutch is nearly non existent! Right off to a great start and we have not even started the 737 course yet. So you start panicking in sorting out removals etc etc and hoping that things will slot into place. Now you have your 737 course where you need to give your 110% but if the accommodation side of things is not looking hopeful or family life is taking a strain then you will be going in on day one for the course with a heap of emotional and psychological baggage that needs to be left outside the class room! Far from suitable!!! Just imagine if the candidate is married with kids. Schooling plans go right out of the window and it would not surprise me if Mums and Dads would have a revolt on their hands if the kids were uprooted and taken away at short notice to a unexpected place! The wife has to sort her job as well as trying to help with selling the house and finding accommodation etc etc! I am still trying to keep a broad horizon because don't forget that there are low hours guys out there who are married with kids and this situation could quite easily apply to some wannabes. I think it would be bad enough for a single person to get things sorted out but it is a very tall order for a married couple with kids!
MCC training is adequate and can be very good in some cases - it all depends on who the FTO is!
I was very lucky since I was on a great MCC course. You are not expected to have fingers that are waltzing across the FMC by the end of the week nor pulling off greasers in crosswinds in the sim. That is for the employer and not the FTO! The CAA don't want MCC training to be type specific or company specific. They would probably see the sim as a training tool and not really a training aid! You will therefore not be fully at ease with a types FMC, EFIS or systems until you actually join a company. I have a relation of mine who sits in the left seat of a heavy and he is utterly appalled at the way Ryanair are conducting themselves when it comes to ripping people off for type ratings! Glad to see that someone who has been around the block a few times is thinking along the same path as I am! I have seen the poor way that Ryanair can treat its applicants. I have a mate whose treatment from Ryanair was far from acceptable, while he was applying to them - I think he is pleased that he is flying for BACX! Going onto the point of Ryanair
If you go for Ryanair you have to pay for it. Why should they risk their money on you?
Well why should I invest nearly £20K in them if this is the way they practice business. The sooner Ryanair are caught with their trousers down the better and I will be having a pint to celebrate that they have woken up to the real world!
We can expect very little in return for our services other than our pay packet.
I have to disagree - why do we have organisations like BALPA in nationwide use? In order to try and create a level playing field for us Pilots and in order to try and create fair working practices and to try and keep everyone happy (tough job!
) Getting your £££ hitting the bank at the end of the month is just part of what the employer should do for its employees. There is no point throwing woges of cash at unhappy workers is it?
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 623
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From: UK
Mister Geezer
Not quite sure if the 'person' we have based our points upon is real or ficticious! Is this happening to someone you know? My point is that us inexperienced guys have to be sluts to the sytem to get a look in because by rights we shouldnt be there. A young family and kids scenario, i agree is damn hard if you are told to move bases, but surely you would have half an idea that an LCC is going to mess you around.
moving on to Ryanair and in asnwer to your question why should we pay £20K... The type rating is YOURS, so why shouldnt you pay for it. You pay £20K now, in 3 years Ryanair will have given you 2,700 hours, almost ready for a command and be on £60K. Sounds a fair gig to me. However they will have a brisk turnover of pilots cos no one wants to work that hard forever! That is the price they pay for not investing in you from the word go.
You mention your mate "whose treatment from Ryanair was far from acceptable, while he was applying to them". He was only applying to them!!! They didnt owe him anything! The Ryanair thing is simple. YOU Pay £20K to relieve them of the Business risk of hiring a low houred guy. you buy your own Type Rating. They max your hours in return pay you damn well and you are free to go if you fancy a flying instructors job. If it isnt for you then dont take it, but, what the system is doing is giving people who want to work hard and not kick up a fuss a chance of employment and, AND is making the competition less for guys like you who wouldnt touch Ryanair with tow bar.
As I said before, I have spoken to several Ryanair pilots, all of whom are happy.
There is something about the British mentality that takes great pleasure in longing for something or someone that is successful to fall on it's arse.
I don't understand why.
Not quite sure if the 'person' we have based our points upon is real or ficticious! Is this happening to someone you know? My point is that us inexperienced guys have to be sluts to the sytem to get a look in because by rights we shouldnt be there. A young family and kids scenario, i agree is damn hard if you are told to move bases, but surely you would have half an idea that an LCC is going to mess you around.
moving on to Ryanair and in asnwer to your question why should we pay £20K... The type rating is YOURS, so why shouldnt you pay for it. You pay £20K now, in 3 years Ryanair will have given you 2,700 hours, almost ready for a command and be on £60K. Sounds a fair gig to me. However they will have a brisk turnover of pilots cos no one wants to work that hard forever! That is the price they pay for not investing in you from the word go.
You mention your mate "whose treatment from Ryanair was far from acceptable, while he was applying to them". He was only applying to them!!! They didnt owe him anything! The Ryanair thing is simple. YOU Pay £20K to relieve them of the Business risk of hiring a low houred guy. you buy your own Type Rating. They max your hours in return pay you damn well and you are free to go if you fancy a flying instructors job. If it isnt for you then dont take it, but, what the system is doing is giving people who want to work hard and not kick up a fuss a chance of employment and, AND is making the competition less for guys like you who wouldnt touch Ryanair with tow bar.
As I said before, I have spoken to several Ryanair pilots, all of whom are happy.
There is something about the British mentality that takes great pleasure in longing for something or someone that is successful to fall on it's arse.
I don't understand why.
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My point is that us inexperienced guys have to be sluts to the sytem to get a look in
but surely you would have half an idea that an LCC is going to mess you around.
Low cost means low cost not cheap and cheerful.
in 3 years Ryanair will have given you 2,700 hours, almost ready for a command and be on £60K
people who want to work hard and not kick up a fuss
There is more to life than working hard or getting sheld loads of dosh. One day you will be old and will have to look back....