BA to never run a sponsorship again ?

[Sagey]

Taken from the ABTN newsletter

Generally speaking British Airways has in recent times secured its pilots via sponsored courses contracted out to a number of
schools (some of which have come and gone), plus Oxford, which seems to have been around for ever. BA inducted into the student pilots a sense of belonging and closely monitored them to ensure its new recruits were worthy of the airline. Completion of the course did not actually mean a guaranteed job and at times of over supply graduates were sometimes offered, on temporary basis, other jobs in the airline, or told to find employment elsewhere.

What may be the last ever BA course is presently at Oxford. For the future BA intends to recruit in the open market at a rate of up to 300 a year. The savings for the airline are considerable. If you want to join British Airways the minimum requirement will be a professional pilots licence before taking even the first step of filling in an application form. However if BA accept you, you will be on the first step of a well paid ladder where you can reach a command position in something like ten years. BA will pay for all your subsequent training. Most British airlines offer similar schemes. It is off course a question of supply and demand. At present there is probably a small surplus of experienced pilots but this often dries up very quickly


Sagey

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Sagey - thank you very much indeed for posting this information.

You are right - there has been a lot of speculation about BA sponsoring again and this news seems to answer all that speculation.

I have said that I could not really see their motivation for re-opening the sponsorship scheme in its old guise again. In some ways this may be a good thing.

WWW

[Sagey]

Cheers WWW, got flamed for putting it up originally, that post has now been removed so has my reply explaining why I put it up.

Basically apart from being a wannabe etc, I now work as a Business Editor/Researcher one of the areas I specialise is, well you guessed it lol. Somehow I need to make the money for my ATPL

If I get anything which is vaguely interesting will post it, then it is up to Ppruners if they feel it is useful info.

Sagey

[Ray Ban]

Sagey,

Whilst I was a tad premature with my post, I was hardly flaming you! In any event, I deleted the post. The passing of the cadet scheme, if true, is very good news for people like me who have funded their own training and are looking for their first flying job. Perhaps this will create opportunities down the food chain.

[Sagey]

Ray I agree it may be good news for some it may be bad news for others.

Thanks for deleting the post and flame may also have been too harsh a word.

However, I was only the messenger, and in all honesty although would love to get a BA sponsorship even if it did run again I would probably be too old to even apply. Hence, I am sitting here working to try and get the money for the ATPL's.

Anyway in the short term airlines still have lots of experienced people to choose from. Further down the line BA and co may look at low hour people with an fATPL. It probably doesn't make any difference to them, they save money and the risk is reduced to employing sponsored cadets.

But to many it is devastating news, and as I said before they were lots of posts full of optimism of how BA were going to restart sponsorships sometime towards the end of 2003, that may now be false hope.

Sagey

[Elvis21]

Indeed, but the post suggests that you will still only need a PPL to apply, which I would imagine most wannabes have anyway

[Sagey]

Elvis sorry to dash your hopes, think the bit about professional pilot license shows that you will need the whole lot. I would imagine that fATPL would be the bare minimum.

Sagey

[flite idol]

Dont confuse a PPL with a "Professional Pilots License"

[foghorn]

The official word from the BALPA conference was that the possibility of future TEP schemes was being 'reviewed', as was the possibility of expanding the selection and hiring of low-hour licence holders (historically only done via school recommendation).

cheers!
foggy.

[purple haze]

sorry whats the abtn news letter?

[sloany]

I too am not sure what the ABTN newsletter is, Sagey or WWW can you clarify.
Also, can anyone in BA confirm this. WWW you seem to have changed your tune slightly from previous posts over the last 13 months....why the sudden change in heart? Especially as there seems to be a slight return to sponsored schemes by certain airlines. Just curious.

I know the industry is still on a knife edge, but I am not sure why BA would scrap the scheme completely as it has been a proven route for offering people who have the talent and not the money to make it.
Surely this would be a bad thing for BA and the industry, as it would make flying elitist again. ie to get into any future pilot position an individual would have to be in debt '000s pounds. Now there are very few industries like this and I can imagine that selling this to school / university leavers would be very hard. "Son, to be a pilot, the only way now is go to the bank and borrow x or try when you are older and have some financial backing". Not saying anything against earning your way into the industry, just trying to make the point it may put more people off.
Also there is the consideration of the retirement bulge and potential growth of the industry (potential pilots not thinking of a career in the air and the surplus of pilots being absorbed too quickly leaving a shortage of pilots which could cause routes to be cancelled and airlines loosing money, far off from the state of the industry at the moment but could happen).
BA do use the scheme to get a certain criteria of people into the company, and to mould them during training. If they have already been trained BA lose complete control of this and this may be a problem for BA. Plus there is no guarantee trained pilots would be taken on by BA for various reasons and they may still find they have a shortage of pilots, a gap which used to be filled by TEPs.

Just some thoughts
Sloany

[Sagey]

It is the Air & Business Travel News.

It generally consists of pax numbers, new routes for airlines etc. Very good as it places it in a weekly newsletter which obviously for me is very useful. Although I have to say that I normally get the info beforehand direct from airline press releases etc, but it acts as a superb summary.

Anyway today they had two things about flight training, the BA info which I provided onto Pprune, and the fact that the Algerian Air Force has extended their contract with OATS, and that more fixed wing cadets will be put through OATS, plus some Advanced Rotary wing courses and an "Observer pilot" course, which I took as a more basic rotary course, as it stating utilising the Squirrel helicopter.

Hope this helps

Sagey

[timzsta]

Sad news.

At the moment the pickings are rich for the airlines in terms of recruitment. Plenty of experienced guys out there out of work. They can pick people type rated on their aircraft etc. Times are still very hard for BA, although they seem to have done a better job post 9/11 then most of the US majors.

However costs must still be kept to a minimum with Iraq situation and the insurance bills the airlines are going to have to have to pick up as off shortly. So every penny counts - why pay to train people when they are plenty of people who have, or are willing to pay for it themselves.

That said if growth of low costs does continue and the majors recover the bottomless pit of type rated 737 pilots has got to dry up sooner or later.

[Sagey]

I personally think if the above is true, is that BA has sat down and worked out that sponsoring is not economical, certainly not in the numbers that they used to do it.

As wannabes we are very quick at saying they get cheaper fees, they pay less wages etc and they can keep a close eye on you to get the finished product they want. All very true, but we forget the fact that they have to employ full time staff to read the tens of thousands of C.V's they get, have to employ staff to carry out the tests, send out letters, even monitoring cadets will cost them money. Then there are the odd few that might fail the course and they have to write off the expense.

BA has looked closely at their business model and feel certain areas have to change, Sponsorship maybe one of those!. It probably works when they need pilots, it certainly doesn't when they don't and they have realised that forward planning of 18 months does at times fail miserably, and they have over capacity of sponsored cadets waiting to get onto the line.

BA will probably keep close ties with Oxford, Cabair, BAe etc, wouldn't even be surprised if they paid these organisations a fee to monitor self sponsored pilots and to arrange for interviews etc.

Time will tell. Although I am beginning to believe that BA sponsorships are a long way from appearing again.


Sagey

[Fright Level]

if BA accept you, you will be on the first step of a well paid ladder

Ha ha ha! You should be aware that almost every pilot who has joined BA in the last 7 years is supporting forthcoming industrial action for a large pay rise (c 30%) that would be needed to bring BA pilots in line with the general market. The "BA is best" mantra is so ingrained that people flock like sheep to the company despite it's current insecurity (share price less than £1 compared to £7.50 in 1996), the lack of a final salary pension scheme for new entrants and a "10 year to command"? On what, a 737? No problem, but why not go to any one of a number of other airlines that will pay better, value it's staff more and offer better prospects than BA.

No doubt BA managers are presenting their "zero training cost" plan to the board, but it won't take long for new entrants who spent their own money training themselves to realise that the grass is no greener than anywhere else, but the handcuffs fit that bit tighter!

[Tree Greens]

Sagey,

Out of interest have you summarised from the ABTN or taken as verbatim from it, as it doesn't seem very professionally put together!

"a number of schools (some of which have come and gone), plus Oxford, which seems to have been around for ever." What is that implying? Surely these things are supposed to be as impartial and as factual as possible.

I'm not having a bash at you mate, but if thats the sort of language they use then maybe its comments should be taken more with a pinch of salt.

TG

[Sagey]

It is a comment by ABTN, it does not necessary mean it is factual although the fact that a professional has written it indicates that their is some merit to it.

Anyway I copied the relevant bit and credited to ABTN, for completeness I reproduce the whole article.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
COMMENT: Pilot Training – At a Permanent Crossroads

Back in the 1960’s the then BOAC and BEA joined forces to create a pilot training school at Hamble, near Southampton, in order to ensure a steady supply of flight deck personnel to the national airlines. This was backed up by sourcing experienced pilots from the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy, and ab initio trainees from two private schools at Oxford and Perth. Periods of too many pilots and two few aircrew followed . Somehow they could never get their requirement figures right. Hamble was closed.

Over the years the supply of military pilots has dried up and Perth
was grounded . Generally speaking British Airways has in recent times secured its pilots via sponsored courses contracted out to a number of schools (some of which have come and gone), plus Oxford, which seems to have been around for ever. BA inducted into the student pilots a sense of belonging and closely monitored them to ensure its new recruits were worthy of the airline. Completion of the course did not actually mean a guaranteed job and at times of over supply graduates
were sometimes offered, on temporary basis, other jobs in the airline, or told to find employment elsewhere.

What may be the last ever BA course is presently at Oxford. For the future BA intends to recruit in the open market at a rate of up to 300 a year. The savings for the airline are considerable. If you want to join British Airways the minimum requirement will be a professional pilots licence before taking even the first step of filling in an application form. However if BA accept you, you will be on the first step of a well paid ladder where you can reach a command position in something like ten years. BA will pay for all your subsequent training. Most British airlines offer similar schemes. It is off course a question of supply and demand. At present there is probably a small surplus of experienced pilots but this often dries up very quickly. The arrival of vast new fleet for the budget carriers will create a demand for cockpit crew. The Ryanair approach is somewhat different. They require £50 for an application form and £250 for anyone selected for interview. They say it is to filter out the time wasters. They also uniquely demand a type rating on a Boeing 737 200 or 800, which can cost the would be co-pilot up to £20,000 (on top of his ab intio training). On the plus side promotion is very quick and with even the most junior of flight desk operatives flying up to 900 per year can reach captaincy within four years of leaving a basic
flying school. Whether experienced means hours flown or years of
actually flying let others decide. Pay at Ryanair is up to industry
standards

At the recent ERA gathering chief executive Mike Ambrose expressed concern at government’s attitude to airline operations with taxes that railways and road transport does not have to pay. The same goes for training. Medical school trainees (or University graduates for that matter) do not have to pay VAT on their education. Go to a professional flying college and the 15 month course will cost a minimum £50,000 plus 17.5% tax. Becoming a pilot is not cheap.

Once again pilot training is at a crossroads. Professionals in the
business say that not enough people with the right motivation are
coming through. At the same time the airlines do not have on offer the jobs that the young people require. What is true is that people with inspiration (and paperwork) always do eventually find themselves in satisfying flying employment. Our advice to would be flight commanders is that if that is the job that you have set your sight on, persevere. Pilot training (and pilot jobs) have always been at a permanent crossroads!



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Hope that is informative and helpful. In all honesty it doesn't matter whether you believe it or don't, the simple fact is BA are not sponsoring at present, and sponsorships are on indefinite hold.

I don't want to damper peoples dreams, I am a wannabe after all, desperate to make enough money to do my ATPL's, the last paragraph is however uplifting and perhaps I should have included it in the first copy and paste

Sagey

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I have become more optomistic lately its true. Largely this is due to seeing people I know get jobs recently.

Still a long way to go but the signs are there.

WWW

ps Anyone got any Airbus manuals they want to sell on?

[Ray Ban]

Sagey,

What's this business editor/researcher thing anyway? I need to fund my hour building and currency and this sounds quite interesting! Is the money any good?

Ta.

[Sagey]

No the money isn't great sadly , I research and provide facts to the media on transport, general retail, IT etc, mainly in a forward planning role for them.

But it does mean I get to read things about Airlines and sometimes get to contact build

Could be worse, I guess

Sagey