Statement "Aviation courses are not equivalent to higher education" Agree/Disagree?
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NVQ Piloting Transport Aircraft
The reason civil pilots' training is traditionally not regarded as 'academic' is simply that it is too expensive to be funded from traditional sources.
The public would not support such funding especially
when so many of us are willing to mortgage our lives
away in the hope that a well paid job secure job as a
pilot may eventally be secured. This whole industry is in effect subsidised by wannabees, the self-selected modular
people forfeit a lot of cash to keep the training machine in operation for the airlines to use as a vehicle to train the selected
integrated students in times of boom 1987+ 1997+ i.e. about every 10 years.
The Aviation Training Agency recently gave credits for the piloting transport aircraft qualification but I believe that nobody graduated from this program because the issue of it was superfluous and not required by employers
In contrast Medicine is also expensive to fund but the training is funded in the UK from the NHS and the Higher Education Funding
Council - but there is a shortage of doctors (not so pilots) and it takes 15 yrs to train a consultant. It only takes a couple of years
to get to be a F/O assuming that you are sponsored by BA and the like when they are recruiting.....
The public would not support such funding especially
when so many of us are willing to mortgage our lives
away in the hope that a well paid job secure job as a
pilot may eventally be secured. This whole industry is in effect subsidised by wannabees, the self-selected modular
people forfeit a lot of cash to keep the training machine in operation for the airlines to use as a vehicle to train the selected
integrated students in times of boom 1987+ 1997+ i.e. about every 10 years.
The Aviation Training Agency recently gave credits for the piloting transport aircraft qualification but I believe that nobody graduated from this program because the issue of it was superfluous and not required by employers
In contrast Medicine is also expensive to fund but the training is funded in the UK from the NHS and the Higher Education Funding
Council - but there is a shortage of doctors (not so pilots) and it takes 15 yrs to train a consultant. It only takes a couple of years
to get to be a F/O assuming that you are sponsored by BA and the like when they are recruiting.....
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I would like to respond to Speed Twelve's post as I am in a similar position, but my degrees in Electronics and Physics were granted about 30 years ago. I found my honours degree b***dy hard work for three years and then had a very slightly more relaxing year getting a masters'. When working full time as a teacher I spent about 8 months swatting up to get my CPL exams (R.I.P Avigation!) and then, when working full time with an airline about 10 years later, I spent a fair bit of spare time over about 6 months self studying for my ATPLS. In both cases I got first time passes. So, what has changed?
Food for more thought, ladies and gentlemen!
Food for more thought, ladies and gentlemen!
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I started on my degree 11 years ago so things may have changed since "dumbing down" began. For what it's worth the degree in question was a BEng in Engineering Geology and Goetechnics. It was so horrible that I have since done my best to get as far away from rocks as possible! Lectures 9-5 most days including Saturdays and half of your holidays spent on field trips.
Academically I would say that the degree was harder in both breadth and depth of knowledge required.
However, with the ATPL examinations, the shear volume of material to be learnt (although not as technically difficult) in the allowed time frame resulted in a similar percieved difficulty. Or maybe I just wanted it more?
Pilot training should recieve funding, in an ideal world this should come from the employers, the airlines, as has already been said. But until demand outstrips surply for a prolonged period, which has yet to happen, this seems as unlikely as ever. If it does, I can see alot more companies along the lines of the ATP academy springing up.
Academically I would say that the degree was harder in both breadth and depth of knowledge required.
However, with the ATPL examinations, the shear volume of material to be learnt (although not as technically difficult) in the allowed time frame resulted in a similar percieved difficulty. Or maybe I just wanted it more?
Pilot training should recieve funding, in an ideal world this should come from the employers, the airlines, as has already been said. But until demand outstrips surply for a prolonged period, which has yet to happen, this seems as unlikely as ever. If it does, I can see alot more companies along the lines of the ATP academy springing up.
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Studying for a degree myself I sure as hell think ATPL's should be considered as higher education,
But its unrealistic to expect the government to pay out for it as they do with University,
Question of supply and demand isn't it.
Why would the Government pay for people to train as ATPLS when they are desperate for Doc's and Nurses.
Money not endless.
Unfortunately
But its unrealistic to expect the government to pay out for it as they do with University,
Question of supply and demand isn't it.
Why would the Government pay for people to train as ATPLS when they are desperate for Doc's and Nurses.
Money not endless.
Unfortunately
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Foggy,
Suprised at your comments.
Know loadsa guys who took degree's and they all say the ATPL theory was harder........much harder! I guess it's a case of what study materials you are provided with, aptitude and of course the FTO. Agree??
VFE.
PS: The guys/ gals I refer to were at an integrated establishment with a high level of respectability.
PPS: The books I bought off you last year have come in good use buddy.
Suprised at your comments.
Know loadsa guys who took degree's and they all say the ATPL theory was harder........much harder! I guess it's a case of what study materials you are provided with, aptitude and of course the FTO. Agree??
VFE.
PS: The guys/ gals I refer to were at an integrated establishment with a high level of respectability.
PPS: The books I bought off you last year have come in good use buddy.
I say there boy
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VFE,
In the ATPLs, you have a huge volume of material to rote learn. The material is very broad, but not very deep at all: you learn the material, regurgitate the correct facts in the exams, you pass. There is a bit of application of knowledge (Gen Nav, Flight Planning, Perf etc.), but nothing harder than a science/maths A-Level.
IMHO Science/Engineering degrees are much harder than that, certainly at the better UK unis. You cannot get away with rote learning and regurgitation. You have to learn the facts and use these to build up mental models and concepts. The Examination questions are designed to see how well you can apply your knowledge of the concepts and how well you understand the subject, rather than how great a volume of facts you know. There is no 'spoonfeeding' of what you need for the exams.
I for one found this much harder to do, and I'm by no means alone there, although, without blowing my own trumpet I know I did go to erm.. .one of the better universities in the country
AFAIK there are no practical degree courses that teach and examine a skill so highly specialised as the skills required of a CPL and ME-IR candidate. In this respect you could say that a frozen ATPL is much more advanced than a degree. However since the training is aimed at as single career, a frozen ATPL course is much more befits the classification of vocational training than degree, which tend to be more academic.
People would be much better putting their energy into getting the NVQ tax relief reinstated, than trying to argue equivalency with degrees. IMHO the removal of this was disgraceful.
As for ATPL courses, I went to Four Forces (RIP - remember them?) and studied distance learning with their course notes - the ones that they were rumoured to be being sued for because they were so crap! I also did my exams back in the dark early days of JAR when the papers abounded with rogue questions and no school really knew what to teach. I still managed to pass all first time (hey there's that trumpet again
)
All the best mate - I'm regretting selling those books as I've dumped a lot of that knowledge out the back of my brain and it might be required should I ever get an airline interview (but that's another story...)
In the ATPLs, you have a huge volume of material to rote learn. The material is very broad, but not very deep at all: you learn the material, regurgitate the correct facts in the exams, you pass. There is a bit of application of knowledge (Gen Nav, Flight Planning, Perf etc.), but nothing harder than a science/maths A-Level.
IMHO Science/Engineering degrees are much harder than that, certainly at the better UK unis. You cannot get away with rote learning and regurgitation. You have to learn the facts and use these to build up mental models and concepts. The Examination questions are designed to see how well you can apply your knowledge of the concepts and how well you understand the subject, rather than how great a volume of facts you know. There is no 'spoonfeeding' of what you need for the exams.
I for one found this much harder to do, and I'm by no means alone there, although, without blowing my own trumpet I know I did go to erm.. .one of the better universities in the country
AFAIK there are no practical degree courses that teach and examine a skill so highly specialised as the skills required of a CPL and ME-IR candidate. In this respect you could say that a frozen ATPL is much more advanced than a degree. However since the training is aimed at as single career, a frozen ATPL course is much more befits the classification of vocational training than degree, which tend to be more academic.
People would be much better putting their energy into getting the NVQ tax relief reinstated, than trying to argue equivalency with degrees. IMHO the removal of this was disgraceful.
As for ATPL courses, I went to Four Forces (RIP - remember them?) and studied distance learning with their course notes - the ones that they were rumoured to be being sued for because they were so crap! I also did my exams back in the dark early days of JAR when the papers abounded with rogue questions and no school really knew what to teach. I still managed to pass all first time (hey there's that trumpet again
)All the best mate - I'm regretting selling those books as I've dumped a lot of that knowledge out the back of my brain and it might be required should I ever get an airline interview (but that's another story...)
Last edited by foghorn; 12th Oct 2002 at 21:49.
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Though an ALTP could be interpreted as a vocational qualification, I think it is a gross understatement! It requires a vast amount of effort and money to obtain it, much like an MBA or MBBS. The syllabus in terms of volume is comparable if not greater! Even the pass marks are much higher! It is recognised internationally and a lot of faith is put into those hands who transport you in safety to various destinations. Much like a doctors!
Here I would like to include ALTP with entire aviation studies and include military aviation too. Military pilots who fight to ensure the national, international integrity is maintained through the use of air power in various forms.
Considering what aviation has done to change the way the human being perceives the world it would be ridiculous to compare the indepth study required with a vocational subject like shoe making!
To recognise aviation studies as an educational degree is the least that should be done. This will give a greater boost to aviation awareness world wide. Including adding aspects into the school curriculum. Only pilots at higher levels in the pyramid can push that to happen- not wannabees.
In India, aviation studies is soon going to be recognised by Bombay University as a Bachelors Degree in aviation studies. This will help students to appear and obtain the coveted ALTP. Lets hope that other countries will follow and ICAO will acknowledge this move and lend it its support. Personally I am an M Phil, M Sc, B Sc.
Lets hope for the best,
Here I would like to include ALTP with entire aviation studies and include military aviation too. Military pilots who fight to ensure the national, international integrity is maintained through the use of air power in various forms.
Considering what aviation has done to change the way the human being perceives the world it would be ridiculous to compare the indepth study required with a vocational subject like shoe making!
To recognise aviation studies as an educational degree is the least that should be done. This will give a greater boost to aviation awareness world wide. Including adding aspects into the school curriculum. Only pilots at higher levels in the pyramid can push that to happen- not wannabees.
In India, aviation studies is soon going to be recognised by Bombay University as a Bachelors Degree in aviation studies. This will help students to appear and obtain the coveted ALTP. Lets hope that other countries will follow and ICAO will acknowledge this move and lend it its support. Personally I am an M Phil, M Sc, B Sc.
Lets hope for the best,
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Developing further on Luke Skytoddler's point, it seems to me that grant funding would improve things for a few people in the short-term. In the long-term, you would find more qualified pilots going for the same jobs. So you would end up working harder to get the job and, when you got it, it'd probably be for less money.
Also, grant funding would probably degrade the quality of the qualification over a period of time. More, less dedicated individuals would apply to do the course, leading to a lower pass percentage. In the current climate, this sort of thing is not acceptable, so things would be scaled to achieve a "bell curve".
IMHO, it's better to pay your dues now, you'll repect your qualification more once you have it.
Cheers,
LP
Also, grant funding would probably degrade the quality of the qualification over a period of time. More, less dedicated individuals would apply to do the course, leading to a lower pass percentage. In the current climate, this sort of thing is not acceptable, so things would be scaled to achieve a "bell curve".
IMHO, it's better to pay your dues now, you'll repect your qualification more once you have it.
Cheers,
LP
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Most of what has already been said is true.
ATPLS are tough. Some say easier than degrees some say harder. This is a personal opinion on where u studied and circumstances.
ATPLS however are often in a shorter time frame, which may make them seem harder.
What is important is to reduce the costs slightly..(Tax relief!)
To make it so easy for anyone to study them would swamp the market..not a good thing. However to reduce thew costs slightly would reduce the burden a bit. (It is often quoted a why is it so easy to get tax relief on Basket weaving course and not for a Professional Licence!!)
ATPLS are tough. Some say easier than degrees some say harder. This is a personal opinion on where u studied and circumstances.
ATPLS however are often in a shorter time frame, which may make them seem harder.
What is important is to reduce the costs slightly..(Tax relief!)
To make it so easy for anyone to study them would swamp the market..not a good thing. However to reduce thew costs slightly would reduce the burden a bit. (It is often quoted a why is it so easy to get tax relief on Basket weaving course and not for a Professional Licence!!)
