Changing Instructors

[Steven JC]

Fellow P-Pruners.... If anybody is like me and doing a PPL at the moment then some of you might be able to relate to this (?). I am currently training with a single instructor 25hrs who basically is somewhat lazy and is quite moody. More annoyingly when I ask a question he looks at me like I'm an idiot and sometimes doesn't even try to answer it....."You'll have to read The Book (Trevor Thom)" is a frequent reply.

There are only three instructors at the club, one of which is an examiner so I can't fly with him in the preceding 10 hrs upto my General Skills Test (shame because he is an excellent trainer and pilot). The other guy is very approchable and offers information easily without needing to be prompted, he does not have as much experience as my current instructor however I feel I may gain more from his teaching.

Is it common for Instructors to simply be interested in hour building ? He always seems pre-occupied with something in his mind - god knows what though !

If I ask to change instructors this may cause waves at the club (?)

Any suggestions from anyone that has been in a similar predicament or is in fact an instructor themselves?

Cheers Gents

[Crackle]

Tom
Unfortunately there are many instructors who are simply in it for the hours. I feel these guys simply lack pride in what they do and they have no appreciation of other peoples aspirations. Having instructed for many hours, I felt morally obliged to spend time with students and give them some value for their hard-earned money.
Just remember, this guy has few concerns about you, and it is your money!
Have a word with the CFI. Tell him your concerns and let him try to put things right. It's his job to kick ass and to allocate work to instructors. If the guy's not interested I wouldn't give him any work.
What you learn now should be the building blocks for your aviation career - you deserve to get decent instruction. Don't worry about making waves, your comments might actually help in the long run.

[Red_Devil]

I agree! You are the customer and this training is the foundation of your flying career. Any poor training, which will result in bad habits, will cost time and money to correct. This is too important an opportunity and you deserve to fly with the best instructor you can find.

My PPL instructor was very good and he went out of his way to share extra knowledge and always made lessons fun. My present IMC instuctor is just fantastic. I can't speak highly enough of him as he goes out of his way each and every lesson to make sure that I understand both what we are doing and why.

Bottom line, speak to the CFI. If you don't get any joy, look for a different school. There are plenty of good instructors who will be more than happy to help you.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

I remember an instructor I had who quite frankly was Crap. I wish I knew then what I knew now. I would have dropped him like a stone. That is my advice to you. Don’t waste time with him. If you are unhappy then tell him you no longer want to fly with him and ask the other guy to teach you. If he doesn’t like it tough.

This is a business and you are the customer and if they can’t be bothered treating you as such then take you money elsewhere. There is a terrible attitude in the aviation teaching establishment that this is just the way it is. I don’t accept that and suggest you don’t either.

At the end of the day you are paying for a service which quite frankly your life may depend on. If it is not first class then find some that is.

Good luck.

[Kermit 180]

I agree with Vortex, this is good advice. Thats all I have to say about that.

Kermie

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Ask to see the CFI in his office. Outline your concerns frankly and have a few speciifc instances of gripes to hand.

Its his job to sort this.

Do it today.

WWW

[Cruise Alt]

I have just done my instructors exam and as part of the test the examiner talks to you about practical aspects of instructing. One of the points he brought up was changing instructors. His point was that the relationship with your instructor is very important to progression on the course. If there is any personality conflict with an instructor changing is very appropriate. Additionally if a student is struggling and the CFI thinks there is a problem if he is good he should even suggest it.

I am hoping to start instructing next week. And yes I am doing it to build hours. However I used to be a student and it really p****d me off when an instructor blatently hasn't got time for you so I know how you feel. Just because one is hour building doesn't mean that you can't be helpfull too. I intend to help as much as I can!

My advice - Don't waste your money on someone who isn't earning it! Change.

[NigelS]

If there's so few instructors there and you're uncomfortable about changing because of hurting someones feelings, why not change clubs? There's plenty about.. What part of England are you in?? Lets see what we can find.

Cheers


Nigel

[DeeTee]

Familiar story....
When I was doing my initial PPL training in sunny Florida we had an instructor who was lazy, ill prepared and we felt we weren't getting our money's worth. Anyway as has been suggested above, we went and saw the CFI, he looked concerned and asked if he had a word with him would we be happy to keep him. We said no we wanted changed and he changed us to another instructor. It was the best decision we made and we were just sorry we didn't make it earlier.

Go with the advice above. Ask for a change of instructor...it's your money, get your money's worth!! It will be hard, you will feel like a t**t, and you may even get hard looks off the guy, but don't worry about it.

we felt bad about it...but we got better

[RV6]

Tom Ahawk - yes, unfortunately it is quite common for people to take up instructing purely for hour building. However, as Cruise Alt says - while doing so they can still be good instructors. The one you have clearly isn't working out for you - so as all the previous posters have advised - change!

You may feel a little awkward at first, especially in such a small organisation - but believe me, when you fly with someone who is really interested in teaching you, you will be so glad you made the change. I often asked my ab-initio instructor questions and he referred me to Trevor Thom's books - a good resource, but my instructor either couldn't be bothered, or on occasions simply didn't know. I got fed up with contributing to the running costs of his MG, and changed instructors

Good luck for the rest of your training.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Another good reason for seeking a change is the oft neglected aspect that the instructor might be quite unenthusiastic about a student in particular.

I've certainly been praying to god that a student would ask for another instructor on ocassion.

It is often viewed quite dimly by the CFI and other instructors if you are seen to be offloading weak students or students with distinctive personality traits (trying to be tactful here).

If the student makes the request then the FI is off the hook...

A student is a prticular instructors whole worklife for anything from a week or two through to a year. Its Soooo important to get one you - as an instructor - like and want to help. If not you will generally only go through the motions.

The wise wannabe should realise that the best way for him or her to start their professional trainig is to drop the 'customer' mentality and instead adopt the 'seller' mentality. Let me elaborate.

You want and need to get the most for your money out of your instructor. The mosr efficient way to achieve this is to make them like, respect and want to halp you. trust me - going that 'extra mile' for your student is worth a fortune to him in terms of progress and training fees.

Now this is hard. You are paying this guys wages and have a right goddammit to get a professional service in return. Well welcome to CRM boys and girls. Its not about being all pals in the cockpit and being jolly nice to the cabin crew. Its about getting the best or at least what you want from another person even when they are not making an effort to provide it or haven't the ability to do so at the moment.

Make your instructors life easy, be prepared, laugh at his jokes and now and again thank him for his efforts today or wish him a good weekend. These things make a big big difference.

I don't want to be an apologist for all the half arsed instructor/hour builders out there doing a shoddy job - you'll find them I detest them more than you with my background. Its just I've seen it time and again - you'll bust a gut for the student you like despite his failings and damn well pull them over ever hurdle in their way. For the student you thought was a prat you'll do the brief, fly the sortie, right a single line of notes and then refer him to TrevorT.

Cheers,

WWW

[BEagle]

BTW - the 'Examiner cannot examine anyone to whom he/she has given instruction in the last 10 hours' thing is incorrect. A UK/FE(PPL)A may not examine anyone to whom he/she has given any flight instruction for the same class/type.

The only instruction an Examiner may have given an applicant for the PPL who he/she is examining is a progress check or safety check during the PPL course.

Any Flight Instructor is required to provide a full flight instruction service to the client. Not just in the air but also, much to the chagrin of low-quality hours-building Wannabees, in theoretical sujects as well.

[Steven JC]

Sound advice from all. Unfortunately I have paid up front for my training (maybe with hindsight a bad idea). I'm not loaded but decided to use a house deposit on something more worthwhile!

Obviously the best thing for me to do is change to the other instructor immediately. I may do this on the basis that I would like to 'draw from his experience'- which maybe more tactful (small club etc.).

Although I subscribe to what you are saying WWW about CRM (quite an interesting way to look at it), if it were on a level playing field ie both employees, this would be OK. Most people have to deal with awkward people in their jobs and it is a skill to manage this relationship. However at £82 per hour I think this falls more into the customer / client scenario. Interesting angle though.

Short of getting a refund and going elsewhere (thanks NigelS) I think the above is the best way forward.

Cheers for all your input Gents - maybe we should archive this for anybody else with similar concerns.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yep - at £82 per hr for most its the most expensive service purchase they ever make. But its £62 for the aircraft and fuel, £10 for the owner and £10 for the FI. Take out the tax, the fact he/she gets little or nothing if not in the air and you are actually paying your bartender more per hourly service than your FI...

BEagle you are quite correct. I subscribed wholly to that. Many did not, do not and will not.

Which just goes to underline to Wannabes that you often as not get what you pay for. A fact that should often be borne in mind when looking for the cheap PPL. I speak as a man who during 1999 worked for a £2,600 PPL course provider.

Some of these issues are the ones that have driven me over the years to commend picking a local UK school with which you can develop a more significant customer relationship.

You are often far better in my humble opinion to train somewhere for PPL, Hours, IMC, Night, CPL and IR from the outset so that you can:

a) get the best (often CFI) instructor from day one.

b) At least suss out the poor instructors early

c) Develop a mutually beneficial student/instructor relationship

d) Be familiar with local SOP's and the local training area/ATC

e) Help facilitate getting a first Instructor job IF Mr Branson is not immediately forthcoming in his job offers.

I might add that I am not an adherent of my own advice and suffered as a result.

Good luck,

WWW

[Whirlybird]

As you've probably gathered, you should change instructors. But if you've paid up front and you're worried about making waves, then do it tactfully. Have a word with the CFI, and say straight out that you're not blaming anyone. Say that you feel it's a personality clash, and you're sure it's no-one's fault, but you're just not happy and you'd like to change. No-one can get too upset about that.

If that doesn't work, have a word with the school owner/manager about getting a refund and changing schools. This is usually possible; in fact I've never heard of it being refused.

I had problems with instructors for both my PPL(A) and PPL(H). I sorted them out and changed instructors, but I'm still discovering some of the repercussions, in terms of things I didn't learn, problems that weren't picked up on, and so on. They're little things, and will get sorted out. But in both cases, I wish I'd changed instructors when I first had an inkling that it would be a good idea, not when it became obvious that I absolutely HAD to. Maybe at least others can learn from my mistakes.

[BEagle]

Without wishing to denigrate the enthusiasm of most young FI(R)s and FIs, it is perhaps only because flight instruction seems to be widely viewed as merely a convenient method of pre-airline hours building rather than as a profession in its own right which allows such low-quality people as you have experienced to cause these problems.

In the RAF, only the most able are 'creamed off' for QFI duties before completing an operational tour; the vast majority of QFIs are experienced pilots who are selected for instructional duties only after demonstrating that they have the necessary qualities to fit them for the responsibilities of the QFI role.

[Whirlybird]

It's occurred to that perhaps someone can learn from my experiences doing my PPL(A). I've never told many people about them; for a long time it was far too painful, and in any case I didn't have enough distance to understand what was going on. Anyway, here goes.

I started learning to fly at my local airfield more or less on impulse; the CFI was my first instructor, and was in many ways very good. But he yelled a lot, which rattled me more than I wanted to let on, and I think this affected me later on. Anyway, he left after I'd done about 10 hours, telling me that if I stayed with the instructor he'd recommended I'd be fine. I'm gonna call this guy X because after all this time I bear him no illwill - though I hated him for ages. Well, X and I got on OK at first. I know he was an hours builder; several times he complained about being there and the low pay etc. I wasn't a natural pilot; everything took me a long time, but it all went OK till I came to try to land. I just couldn't do it, for ages. I know now it was a problem I have with depth perception; had anyone tried to find this out I'd probably have sorted things out earlier. But they didn't; X merely looked fed up, confused, and told me I'd get there in the end - fair enough really in a way.

Anyway, eventually I landed the aircraft by myself for the first time. I threw a hand in the air and whooped with joy. After all, it felt like a hell of an achievment; it had taken me ages. Did X congratulate me? Did he hell; he glared at me with what I now remember as hate, and I choose my words with care. He said darkly: "I'm gonna come down on you much harder from now on". I didn't care; I had done it once so I could do it again, and that was all that mattered to me. When we finished, X proceeded to rubbish my flying, saying my circuits and keeping my altitude etc were crap. They were; I'd been concentrating on landings, feeling I could do the rest. But I was too happy to care about what he said.

I couldn't wait for the next lesson; I was sure it would now be OK. Then I was coming in to land; the approach was good. At about 50 ft from the threshold X turned to me and started a long conversation along the lines of wanting me to keep the power on and fly it along the runway and... Well, I never heard the last bit; confused, I lost concentration and bounced. X yelled at me to go around and I froze. He grabbed the controls in obvious fury for a go around, handing back control to me before I'd had a chance to calm down. I gripped the control column, close to tears. I wanted to stop the lesson, to tell him I didn't want to fly with him. But I couldn't. This was to be the day I could do it. Shaking with tension and disappointment, I nearly asked him why he'd done that, why he'd sabotaged my efforts when I had it right. But I couldn't get out the words. I decided to grit my teeth and carry on, being too new to flyng to know that you can't learn in that state. My state of mind must have been obvious to anyone with any sensitivity whatsoever, but X appeared not to notice. I couldn't manage another landing after that, unsurprisingly. With hindsight, I'm amazed I managed to fly at all.

That day coloured virtually the whole of my training. It had somehow caused a kind of block, and I couldn't land after that. I'd also lost confidence so thoroughly I could barely drive to the airfield, let alone fly. I didn't ask to change instructors, because I thought it was all my fault, and also because the ex-CFI had told me to stick with X, and said,"If you do, you'll make it". And there was no new CFI, and no-one I felt I could talk to. And I thought if I threw enough effort at the problem, I'd get there.

Eventually, someone else realised that things were going really badly, and found me another instructor. The new guy talked to me a lot, found out what had happened, and was furious with X, muttering angrily about some people being unsuitable to be instructors. He eventually got me to solo standard. Even then my problems weren't at an end - I had a tendency to panic, and very little confidence; most unlike me usually I might add. Many times I thought of giving up, but I loved flying in spite of everything, and I never ever give up.

Eventually I got my PPL. I think I had been more or less an average student at the beginning, though it's hard for me to say. But with all that had gone on, it took me almost 90 hours.

X upset several other people; one at least gave up flying because of him. Yet, to be fair, some people found him very good. I know it would have saved me a lot of time and money if I'd followed my first instincts during that disastrous lesson, and told him I wanted to stop there and then. But then, hindsight is always an exact science.

There's not much more to say. But I know WWW and some others think I sometimes come down too hard on hours building instructors, and refuse to accept that they may have a point of view. Now at least maybe you understand why.

[Delta Wun-Wun]

I think Instructing is an art form.Maybe some of X`s method suited some people,but quite obviously didn`t suit most.That is where a good Instructor will adapt his training methods to each pupil to try and bring the best out in them.

[scroggs]

Some people are just not suited to instruction, and others may get on like a house on fire with some students, and not at all with others. It is the CFI's job to weed out the misfits and incompetents - he should be flying with all the instructors regularly - and to juggle the personality conflicts to as many people's satisfaction as possible, without pandering to the professional whingers.
Of course, it's very difficult for the CFI to know what's going on in those little cockpits up above the airfield, but an open office door, and a trained ear and eye in the bar at the end of the flying day, can help immensely. Some places even run their own local Confidential Report system, for just this kind of situation.
The bottom line is that, as the customer, you should point out your concerns to the CFI. It is then his responsibility to do something about it, if he feels your complaint is justified, and if he is actually able to do anything. If he can't, or won't, you can take your money elsewhere. But he should let your FI give his side of the story as well; there should be no judgements on just one side's account of the situation.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I had some horrible instructors when I started, but the CFI was the worst, I had one lesson with him, he stank of booze, yelled a lot (probably because he was pi$$ed), and smoked during the lesson. Yuk! It's a bit hard to say you don't want to fly with the CFI, but luckily he got sacked soon after!