Is now the Time to start learning to Fly!!
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Well,
I certainly was not expecting this many comments and I thank you all for your feedback.
Please bear in mind this is the first stage and I still don't have my medical yet!! (can you yet this from your local doctor or do I have to go to the CAA?)
I think the idea of South Africa sounds good and will need to do a little research into it.
Question in all honesty will it take a lot to convert UK ATPL JAR or will it be fairly resaonable?
Further more I have not even started fly yet!
Is it worth me doing some sort of mini test to see if I am capable? (Didn't get many GSCE'S and no A Levels.....)
Once again thanks to you all for your words of wisdomnell..
I certainly was not expecting this many comments and I thank you all for your feedback.
Please bear in mind this is the first stage and I still don't have my medical yet!! (can you yet this from your local doctor or do I have to go to the CAA?)
I think the idea of South Africa sounds good and will need to do a little research into it.
Question in all honesty will it take a lot to convert UK ATPL JAR or will it be fairly resaonable?
Further more I have not even started fly yet!
Is it worth me doing some sort of mini test to see if I am capable? (Didn't get many GSCE'S and no A Levels.....)
Once again thanks to you all for your words of wisdomnell..
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TimD
South Africa a good option but I'll say it again, NO JAA! To convert will be pretty close to the cost of doing it in the UK and the cost of air tickets should even that out. If you have no intention of flying for a European carrier then by all means come and do the ICAO licence here in good ol' SA. If you want an airline job back home in the UK rather do the whole JAA hoop jumping excercise there and use the cheaper aircraft and better weather in South Africa purely for hour building. As an example, if you come out here with a friend to build hours and take a C172 for your exclusive use for a week or two, the cost should be lower than you'd pay in the UK and you'd have a pretty good holiday touring South Africa by air. The current exchange rate is definitely in your favour.
Another thing to think about is the fact that if you can get a job with a South African contract company working outside SA you won't need a work permit for SA and can operate from the UK into wherever you're needed. I had a First Officer (now a captain) who did just that and he built around 700 hours in his first year with the company. Pay is along SA lines so you're not going to get rich but, heck, we don't do it for the money....... or do we?
South Africa a good option but I'll say it again, NO JAA! To convert will be pretty close to the cost of doing it in the UK and the cost of air tickets should even that out. If you have no intention of flying for a European carrier then by all means come and do the ICAO licence here in good ol' SA. If you want an airline job back home in the UK rather do the whole JAA hoop jumping excercise there and use the cheaper aircraft and better weather in South Africa purely for hour building. As an example, if you come out here with a friend to build hours and take a C172 for your exclusive use for a week or two, the cost should be lower than you'd pay in the UK and you'd have a pretty good holiday touring South Africa by air. The current exchange rate is definitely in your favour.
Another thing to think about is the fact that if you can get a job with a South African contract company working outside SA you won't need a work permit for SA and can operate from the UK into wherever you're needed. I had a First Officer (now a captain) who did just that and he built around 700 hours in his first year with the company. Pay is along SA lines so you're not going to get rich but, heck, we don't do it for the money....... or do we?
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What a lot of common sense from Scroggs. Crises always loom larger at the time than in retrospect. While there will be carriers (and schools) who go under during this hiccup, there will be others who come to the fore during the lean times. EasyJet are reporting year-on-year increases in passenger numbers. Many airline recruiters are looking forward to the other side of this dip and realising that, once the ‘pool’ of displaced pilots is used up, there will still be a shortage of Qualitypilots. The truth is that there has not been a pilot shortage during the last few years – just a Qualityshortage.
The short sighted carriers will drop their support for the an-initio stream. Those with foresight know that people will continue to retire during the recession, indeed some good people will take the opportunity for early retirement. The brakes on growth for someone like EasyJet have been lack of Captains (that’s why their entry requirements have been higher than ‘stagnant’ airline; every FO recruit has to be capable of moving to the LHS in a very short time), lack of routes and lack of slots. All of a sudden, there are lots of experienced pilots on the market, and competitors dropping routes and slots daily.
Ask yourself these questions; if you were a senior manager at a low cost carrier:
• Facing these opportunities and increased passenger demand, would you plan to grow, stand still, or shrink?
• Assuming your answer is grow, will you recruit all potential captains as before (expensive?) or equal numbers of ready made captains and first job FOs (lower cost?)
Watch this space for dramatic changes in the short-haul carrier market and the recruitment market, and put yourself in a position to benefit. But please bear in mind that desperate schools will take your money and train you to pass the licence come what may. Not everyone is cut out for this profession. Position of a licence is not a ticket to a job, it’s a given; you have to be a good prospect. Qualitypilots will find employment. Those who struggle against all odds to achieve an IR pass, taking many attempts to get through the JAA exams and the CPL and IR may have an equal struggle in finding an employer.
So my advice is, before you part with your money, go through a selection process, and enrol only on a course that is (still) backed by the airlines. Alternatively, follow the Flying Instructor route, preferably with a commercial rather than PPL school. It will be tempting to take a low cost route during a recession, but you will be competing with the best when it comes to chasing that job.
The short sighted carriers will drop their support for the an-initio stream. Those with foresight know that people will continue to retire during the recession, indeed some good people will take the opportunity for early retirement. The brakes on growth for someone like EasyJet have been lack of Captains (that’s why their entry requirements have been higher than ‘stagnant’ airline; every FO recruit has to be capable of moving to the LHS in a very short time), lack of routes and lack of slots. All of a sudden, there are lots of experienced pilots on the market, and competitors dropping routes and slots daily.
Ask yourself these questions; if you were a senior manager at a low cost carrier:
• Facing these opportunities and increased passenger demand, would you plan to grow, stand still, or shrink?
• Assuming your answer is grow, will you recruit all potential captains as before (expensive?) or equal numbers of ready made captains and first job FOs (lower cost?)
Watch this space for dramatic changes in the short-haul carrier market and the recruitment market, and put yourself in a position to benefit. But please bear in mind that desperate schools will take your money and train you to pass the licence come what may. Not everyone is cut out for this profession. Position of a licence is not a ticket to a job, it’s a given; you have to be a good prospect. Qualitypilots will find employment. Those who struggle against all odds to achieve an IR pass, taking many attempts to get through the JAA exams and the CPL and IR may have an equal struggle in finding an employer.
So my advice is, before you part with your money, go through a selection process, and enrol only on a course that is (still) backed by the airlines. Alternatively, follow the Flying Instructor route, preferably with a commercial rather than PPL school. It will be tempting to take a low cost route during a recession, but you will be competing with the best when it comes to chasing that job.
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Every now and again I contribute on one of these threads. Usually, somebody asks a usual 'how to become a pilot / am I too old' type questions and 99% of the replies say 'Go for it' etc etc. I'm usually the sole voice saying not to do it.
Still, people keep going for it inspite of the reasons not too. I'm going to stick my neck out here and reverse my usual view and say if you really, really have to be a pilot, then now / near future is likely to be a good time to train. But whatever you do, don't pay up front, however tempting the deal.
CPB
Still, people keep going for it inspite of the reasons not too. I'm going to stick my neck out here and reverse my usual view and say if you really, really have to be a pilot, then now / near future is likely to be a good time to train. But whatever you do, don't pay up front, however tempting the deal.
CPB
I think the earliest right time to be passing the last hurdle (IRT) and entering the job market will be about February 2003.
The rest of 2001 hiring is frozen solid.
It will take all of 2002 to soak up unemployed pilots, the glut of ex-cadets and the usual self sponsored students.
This assumes no further bad news.
If you pitch at Feb 2003 then your training would probably start a year before that for either the modular or integrated route. Perhaps 6 months earlier for distance learning ATPL theory, i.e. now.
Actual flying training should be completed in as near to a continuous block as possible. Funds allowing.
Good luck, personally I would do nothing more than start on the books for another 6 months. We are in uncharted waters and its far far preferable to be racing to enter a rapidly recovering market than be left holding a licence and ratings that need to be kept current whilst you slowly lose the flying skill that you expensively acquired but are unable to maintain in a totally stagnant market...
Cheers,
WWW
The rest of 2001 hiring is frozen solid.
It will take all of 2002 to soak up unemployed pilots, the glut of ex-cadets and the usual self sponsored students.
This assumes no further bad news.
If you pitch at Feb 2003 then your training would probably start a year before that for either the modular or integrated route. Perhaps 6 months earlier for distance learning ATPL theory, i.e. now.
Actual flying training should be completed in as near to a continuous block as possible. Funds allowing.
Good luck, personally I would do nothing more than start on the books for another 6 months. We are in uncharted waters and its far far preferable to be racing to enter a rapidly recovering market than be left holding a licence and ratings that need to be kept current whilst you slowly lose the flying skill that you expensively acquired but are unable to maintain in a totally stagnant market...
Cheers,
WWW
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WWW,
What do you mean by a 'continuous block' in your above post? The date given of Feb 2003 is the information we have now. It is likely that there will be a ground war of some sort, similar but worse than the actual Gulf war, hence I think you could possibly add another 2 years on to that date. Airlines and the economy hate uncertainity!
What do you mean by a 'continuous block' in your above post? The date given of Feb 2003 is the information we have now. It is likely that there will be a ground war of some sort, similar but worse than the actual Gulf war, hence I think you could possibly add another 2 years on to that date. Airlines and the economy hate uncertainity!
Superted - yes if things get worse than present then I would extend that earliest target date.
By continuous block I mean it is best to avoid doing - say - a PPL now and then delaying a year or so before embarking on the commercial licence. It should be possible to do the PPL, hours, CPL and IR all within 4 - 5 months and this is preferable from a continuity and recency point of view i.e. wait and do your flight training in a big hit rather than dribble it out over years.
Cheers,
WWW
By continuous block I mean it is best to avoid doing - say - a PPL now and then delaying a year or so before embarking on the commercial licence. It should be possible to do the PPL, hours, CPL and IR all within 4 - 5 months and this is preferable from a continuity and recency point of view i.e. wait and do your flight training in a big hit rather than dribble it out over years.
Cheers,
WWW
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Superted,
I find it very unlikely that there will be a campaign comparable to the Gulf in any way whatsoever. The Gulf involved some 725,000 ground troops (including 300 Afghan Mujahadin, incidentally) and many millions of tons of logistical support for a ground war on a massive scale in relatively benign terrain to eject an invading force from illegally-held territory. The campaign, such as it might be, in Afghanistan will be mainly a special forces affair to find and eliminate relatively few people in the very difficult terrain of that country, although it will probably start with air and missile strikes against known terrorist encampments. There also may well be 'assistance' to the Northern Alliance in their ongoing fight with the Taliban, but there ain't gonna be any big war over there - there's nothing left to fight for. Once this becomes obvious to the commentators in CNN and the BBC, the market makers will start to get less jittery and, commercially, things will start to return to normal. The biggest risk to economic recovery is a further terrorist outrage - hence the nervous press reaction to the Greyhound bus incident, the shooting down of the TU154 over the Black Sea, and the Alliance Air 'hijack'.
[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: Scroggs ]
I find it very unlikely that there will be a campaign comparable to the Gulf in any way whatsoever. The Gulf involved some 725,000 ground troops (including 300 Afghan Mujahadin, incidentally) and many millions of tons of logistical support for a ground war on a massive scale in relatively benign terrain to eject an invading force from illegally-held territory. The campaign, such as it might be, in Afghanistan will be mainly a special forces affair to find and eliminate relatively few people in the very difficult terrain of that country, although it will probably start with air and missile strikes against known terrorist encampments. There also may well be 'assistance' to the Northern Alliance in their ongoing fight with the Taliban, but there ain't gonna be any big war over there - there's nothing left to fight for. Once this becomes obvious to the commentators in CNN and the BBC, the market makers will start to get less jittery and, commercially, things will start to return to normal. The biggest risk to economic recovery is a further terrorist outrage - hence the nervous press reaction to the Greyhound bus incident, the shooting down of the TU154 over the Black Sea, and the Alliance Air 'hijack'.
[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: Scroggs ]
Gotta back Scroggsy there 100% on that analysis.
Barring any further terrorist attacks things should be back on an even keel this time next year. The US economic slowdown though will probably mean the market remains sluggish for a while after that though.
In essence I think WTC has just squeezed 18 months of pain into 3 weeks in the airline world.
Cheers,
WWW
Barring any further terrorist attacks things should be back on an even keel this time next year. The US economic slowdown though will probably mean the market remains sluggish for a while after that though.
In essence I think WTC has just squeezed 18 months of pain into 3 weeks in the airline world.
Cheers,
WWW
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WWW
In your second last post you said:
But i thought you could only start your ATPL groundschool once you had a PPL licence - so you would have to have a minimum break of at least 6 months between PPL and CPL/IR - isn't this still the case?
In your second last post you said:
By continuous block I mean it is best to avoid doing - say - a PPL now and then delaying a year or so before embarking on the commercial licence. It should be possible to do the PPL, hours, CPL and IR all within 4 - 5 months and this is preferable from a continuity and recency point of view i.e. wait and do your flight training in a big hit rather than dribble it out over years.
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WWW.....I was interested to read your point about Feb 2003.....that (to me) implies that in the best case scenario, starting a fully integrated course in approx six months' time might not be too bad an idea.
As things have gone down steeply in the past few weeks, are they expected to rise again steeply on the other side?
freaky - i didn't expect that when I typed WWW...... it would give a link to a non-existent website
[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: topunicyclist ]
As things have gone down steeply in the past few weeks, are they expected to rise again steeply on the other side?
freaky - i didn't expect that when I typed WWW...... it would give a link to a non-existent website
[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: topunicyclist ]
JetMouse - yeah you are kindof correct. But you could get the ATPL course notes very soon after PPL if you wanted to...
WWW
WWW
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JetMouse, you are exactly correct. A full-time ATPL theory course takes 6 months, and most people find a distance learning course takes much-much longer. Therefore, you'll not be able to do it all within 4-5 months as WWW suggests. The hours building (from PPL to 150 TT) CPL, IR and MCC can be done as a block once you have complete the theory.
Good luck!
Good luck!
It nice to go stright from your PPL Trevor Thom type books to the ATPL books whilst you are flying. This implies getting hold of the ATPL books ahead of time when on the modular route. Which is what I think is worthwhile.
On the Integrated courses you are doing ATPL study every other day between flying and in blocks inbetween - it is this mix that it is best to emulate if you can. And stuff the rules about having built your hours before you can enrol on a distance course - thats an anacronysm well due for the chop. Besides - the ATPL police don't come around checking...
Its not a big issue one way or the other. Its more that I have seen people suffer becuase their 170 odd flying hours have been spread very thinlky over 2 years and its just very difficult to stay sharp with that low time and low recency.
WWW
On the Integrated courses you are doing ATPL study every other day between flying and in blocks inbetween - it is this mix that it is best to emulate if you can. And stuff the rules about having built your hours before you can enrol on a distance course - thats an anacronysm well due for the chop. Besides - the ATPL police don't come around checking...
Its not a big issue one way or the other. Its more that I have seen people suffer becuase their 170 odd flying hours have been spread very thinlky over 2 years and its just very difficult to stay sharp with that low time and low recency.
WWW
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www/Sroggs,
Surely then you could get the ppl out of the way fly for fun (costs money I know) and then in about 6 to 8 months start the flight training for atpl whether in UK/US/South Africa (so many different comments differcult to choose) in the mean time get hold of as many crazy text books as possible!!
Are you confused I seem a little...
More beer fatter women...
Surely then you could get the ppl out of the way fly for fun (costs money I know) and then in about 6 to 8 months start the flight training for atpl whether in UK/US/South Africa (so many different comments differcult to choose) in the mean time get hold of as many crazy text books as possible!!
Are you confused I seem a little...
More beer fatter women...
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TimD,
yes, why not. That's a perfectly sensible strategy. And while you're doing your PPL you can start to get a grasp of what all those 'crazy text books' are, and what you face in trying to study for your ATPL! Best of luck.
yes, why not. That's a perfectly sensible strategy. And while you're doing your PPL you can start to get a grasp of what all those 'crazy text books' are, and what you face in trying to study for your ATPL! Best of luck.
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Rich Tea,
Sorry for not replying earlier, been away.
In a nutshell it comes down to supply and demand in the training world. Times when the airlines are recruiting are characterised by:
Lack of instructors as people move into the airlines.
Lack of test slots and course dates as people finish off licences in a hurry.
Lack of interest in individual students by those training organisations that have groups of airline spondored students.
These factors tend to make training more difficult, expensive, and lengthy.
Whereas when the industry is struggling the reverse tendancies apply, supply and demand works in your favour and you are then ready to be employed immediately things pick up. In the mean time you can get aerial work to keep things ticking along.
Remember my whole post though - I do not recommend flying as a career - its just to unstable. But if you really have too, now may be a good time to start.
CPB
Sorry for not replying earlier, been away.
In a nutshell it comes down to supply and demand in the training world. Times when the airlines are recruiting are characterised by:
Lack of instructors as people move into the airlines.
Lack of test slots and course dates as people finish off licences in a hurry.
Lack of interest in individual students by those training organisations that have groups of airline spondored students.
These factors tend to make training more difficult, expensive, and lengthy.
Whereas when the industry is struggling the reverse tendancies apply, supply and demand works in your favour and you are then ready to be employed immediately things pick up. In the mean time you can get aerial work to keep things ticking along.
Remember my whole post though - I do not recommend flying as a career - its just to unstable. But if you really have too, now may be a good time to start.
CPB
You need an ICAO PPL before you can enroll on an ATPL theory course. Nothing stops you getting hold of the books earler mind.
As for now being a good time to train. Well yeah the school will be less busy so potentially your instructor will be less harrassed than before. Mind you, if you are his only paycheck that month, there is pressure to do "one more trip just to polish you up a bit". Decent places won't make this an issue but the pressure is there...
The real issue is will you train and be left with nothing to do with the licence afterwards for so long that you lose your flying skills or cannot afford to keep your IR current.
Remember its going to cost you about £1700 a year to keep your Class One, Multi and IR tickets in working order. This will easily outstrip any savings you are able to beat out of your chosen FTO becuase they need the business...
The chances of gaining employment doing Aerial Work are wafer thin. Aerial Work is often hazardous and requires experience. You are operating with no Ops manual, no backup and often not much in the way of equipment. Employers will need 1000hrs just to insure you on the aircraft in most cases. <40hrs P1 time and a Deep Frzn ATPL is going to impress nobody in GA yet perversely CAN get you a Boeing RHS. Thats the way of the world.
The school are graduating 450 people already this year. They join people already holding licences looking for work. Nothing much is going to happen to them all in 12 months. IF you start Integrated now then you'll be joining that lot. I'd want another year for a lot of the backlog to have cleared either by jobs soaking them up or people jacking the whole thing in or people getting rusty and not passing the sim rides that you will be better prepared for having just finished your MCC etc.
I note that anecdotally BA's loads seem to be recovering. Boads well.
WWW
[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]
As for now being a good time to train. Well yeah the school will be less busy so potentially your instructor will be less harrassed than before. Mind you, if you are his only paycheck that month, there is pressure to do "one more trip just to polish you up a bit". Decent places won't make this an issue but the pressure is there...
The real issue is will you train and be left with nothing to do with the licence afterwards for so long that you lose your flying skills or cannot afford to keep your IR current.
Remember its going to cost you about £1700 a year to keep your Class One, Multi and IR tickets in working order. This will easily outstrip any savings you are able to beat out of your chosen FTO becuase they need the business...
The chances of gaining employment doing Aerial Work are wafer thin. Aerial Work is often hazardous and requires experience. You are operating with no Ops manual, no backup and often not much in the way of equipment. Employers will need 1000hrs just to insure you on the aircraft in most cases. <40hrs P1 time and a Deep Frzn ATPL is going to impress nobody in GA yet perversely CAN get you a Boeing RHS. Thats the way of the world.
The school are graduating 450 people already this year. They join people already holding licences looking for work. Nothing much is going to happen to them all in 12 months. IF you start Integrated now then you'll be joining that lot. I'd want another year for a lot of the backlog to have cleared either by jobs soaking them up or people jacking the whole thing in or people getting rusty and not passing the sim rides that you will be better prepared for having just finished your MCC etc.
I note that anecdotally BA's loads seem to be recovering. Boads well.
WWW
[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]
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WWW I believe it has now changed (JAR FCL-1 NPA 14) to JAA PPL, rather than ICAO, needed before enrolling on a groundschool course.
Beware paying lots for books without enrolling on a course. You cannot take the exams unless you have completed an approved course, which will, of course, come with books....
Beware paying lots for books without enrolling on a course. You cannot take the exams unless you have completed an approved course, which will, of course, come with books....