Failed Class 1 to Fit Class 1 - Next steps?
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2023
Posts: 72
Likes: 1
From: United Kingdom
Failed Class 1 to Fit Class 1 - Next steps?
Evening all,
Over a year ago now, my first post on my account, I failed my CAA initial class 1.
After spending around £2,000 and a year of my life visiting multiple specialists (one of them I even had to fly to Scotland), I have somehow managed to obtain the class 1 after initially failing on my eyesight and poor core stability [?] (still don't know what that was and got instantly cleared by a neurologist). It still doesn't feel real as my dreams of flying were almost completely obliterated and I had to live with that for a whole year.
I make this post to first say if you were in a similar place to me (not only regarding poor eyesight, in my case a lazy eye), keep trying until the bitter end - as someone on here said to me.
But I also come to ask now for myself what is next?
My plan for now was to get an F1 visa to the US and complete a full FAA ATPL, and extend visa to become a CFI for a year or two (build hours and earn some money back), then come back to the UK with ~1500 hours and do the license conversion. Luckily I do not think funding will be an issue as I have a good amount of money saved and got extremely lucky with a high paying job.
Any ideas, similar experiences, insights, etc are greatly appreciated. This is great news for me. I'd be happy to help anyone with anything I can regarding appeals, eyesight, etc as I have learned quite a lot in the past year in those regards.
-bakerin
Over a year ago now, my first post on my account, I failed my CAA initial class 1.
After spending around £2,000 and a year of my life visiting multiple specialists (one of them I even had to fly to Scotland), I have somehow managed to obtain the class 1 after initially failing on my eyesight and poor core stability [?] (still don't know what that was and got instantly cleared by a neurologist). It still doesn't feel real as my dreams of flying were almost completely obliterated and I had to live with that for a whole year.
I make this post to first say if you were in a similar place to me (not only regarding poor eyesight, in my case a lazy eye), keep trying until the bitter end - as someone on here said to me.
But I also come to ask now for myself what is next?
My plan for now was to get an F1 visa to the US and complete a full FAA ATPL, and extend visa to become a CFI for a year or two (build hours and earn some money back), then come back to the UK with ~1500 hours and do the license conversion. Luckily I do not think funding will be an issue as I have a good amount of money saved and got extremely lucky with a high paying job.
Any ideas, similar experiences, insights, etc are greatly appreciated. This is great news for me. I'd be happy to help anyone with anything I can regarding appeals, eyesight, etc as I have learned quite a lot in the past year in those regards.
-bakerin
Joined: Apr 2012
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 400
Likes: 18
From: UK
Congratulations and well done for sticking at it. I'm currently going through the Class 1 referral process myself and whilst the specialists have been reasonably positive about my chances it still needs to go through the assessors at national authority level for both the CAA and EASA. It seems to be fairly normal these days for a Class 1 with referral processes to cost £2000-£3000 and I know people who have been referred for things which have been cleared instantly by a specialist. It all seems to be a bit of a minefield.
BA's Speedbird Academy and TUI's MPL programme are both likely to open for applications early next year so I'd suggest by going through previous threads and doing a bit of research ahead of an application. You could look at self-funding the modular route or maybe integrated at one of the better schools if your career is something you can go back into easily after a break and you have the huge sums of cash needed at hand or are able to save up quickly.
BA's Speedbird Academy and TUI's MPL programme are both likely to open for applications early next year so I'd suggest by going through previous threads and doing a bit of research ahead of an application. You could look at self-funding the modular route or maybe integrated at one of the better schools if your career is something you can go back into easily after a break and you have the huge sums of cash needed at hand or are able to save up quickly.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2023
Posts: 72
Likes: 1
From: United Kingdom
Thank you and good luck to you - you're right in saying they tend to refer you if it's 50/50 rather than passing you to be safe I assume.
Mind talking a bit more about these programmes? Not something I've considered as I currently have no flying experience other than a couple of logged hours (like literally a couple).
I'd assume they'd be picking people who are instructors etc and already have a couple thousand hours rather than picking someone to go from zero to hero
Mind talking a bit more about these programmes? Not something I've considered as I currently have no flying experience other than a couple of logged hours (like literally a couple).
I'd assume they'd be picking people who are instructors etc and already have a couple thousand hours rather than picking someone to go from zero to hero
Joined: Apr 2012
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 400
Likes: 18
From: UK
The UK/European way of doing things is often for airlines to have a sponsored (airline-funded) or mentored (self-funded), there's hundreds of pages of threads on the forum about the various schemes available. The whole couple of thousand hours instructing before airline flying can and does happen but is much more of a US thing.
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 587
Likes: 60
From: FLSomething
Thank you and good luck to you - you're right in saying they tend to refer you if it's 50/50 rather than passing you to be safe I assume.
Mind talking a bit more about these programmes? Not something I've considered as I currently have no flying experience other than a couple of logged hours (like literally a couple).
I'd assume they'd be picking people who are instructors etc and already have a couple thousand hours rather than picking someone to go from zero to hero
Mind talking a bit more about these programmes? Not something I've considered as I currently have no flying experience other than a couple of logged hours (like literally a couple).
I'd assume they'd be picking people who are instructors etc and already have a couple thousand hours rather than picking someone to go from zero to hero
- Licence holders with 500+ hours or 100+ sectors on a ZFT qualifying aircraft. Google CS-25 aircraft. Basically anything that carries 20+ passengers fits the bill. This means you are easy to train and don’t have to do base training. Cheap
- Brand new flight school graduates. Fresh out the system, don’t have years of bad habits, generally willing to foot some of the bill for the training, can be paid less. Cheap.
What they don’t want I’m afraid is flight instructors. You may well get good experience with a few years flying around in a 172, but for multi-crew operations this is all, on paper at least which is what their finance department cares about, completely useless.
If you want to be a flight instructor, become a flight instructor, could be great fun. But if you want to become an airline pilot, just become an airline pilot.
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,759
Likes: 424
From: GA, USA
What they don’t want I’m afraid is flight instructors. You may well get good experience with a few years flying around in a 172, but for multi-crew operations this is all, on paper at least which is what their finance department cares about, completely useless.
If you want to be a flight instructor, become a flight instructor, could be great fun. But if you want to become an airline pilot, just become an airline pilot.
In the US 80% take the instructor route to get to the airlines.
In Europe you have the choice to either sit on your parents couch with 200hrs and a “frozen” ATPL or you can be smart and anticipate and have 1500 hrs (albeit little airplanes ) when you need to start looking outside of the EU for a job.
I find it hard to believe the arrogance in your statement.
- Former CFI / current airline pilot.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
Posts: 4,910
Likes: 184
From: Duit On Mon Dei
B2N2,
VariablePitchP is correct to a degree re flight instructors and UK/EU. However, if the aspiring pilot wants to go into training, their instructing experience becomes useful.
VariablePitchP is correct to a degree re flight instructors and UK/EU. However, if the aspiring pilot wants to go into training, their instructing experience becomes useful.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,970
Likes: 326
From: Hong Kong
This shows the stark difference between the CAA/EASA and FAA systems. What works in one doesn't work in the other.
Assuming no jet time:
The perfect candidate in Europe has 200 hours and is fresh out of flight school. More hours are seen as a bad thing (generally) because they want to train you in multi piot operations as early as possible.
The perfect candidate in the US has 1500 hours as a CFI. More hours are seen as a good thing because they make you a better pilot.
Personally if I had to do it all again I would cover all bases:
1) get an M1 visa and persue ONLY the FAA Private in 4-6 weeks.
2) do the CAA/EASA exams.
3) Apply for an F1 visa for IR, CPL and CFI.
4) Go back to the States and get the FAA IR and 50 hours PIC under IFR.
5) Approaching 180TT I'd return home to take the CBIR (ICAO > CAA route - training as required) and the 15 hour CPL course.
6) Return to the US and fly the remaining 50 hours for CPL from the right seat, concurrently training for CPL and CFI, Take both tests on the same day. (Yes you can do this!)
8) Work as a flight instructor in the US building towards 1500 hours.
9) Get CAA MEP and MEIR conversion (approx 10 hours) and MCC
10) Apply for cadet jobs with a CV that shows only 200 hours.
11) Continue in the US building flight hours whilst exploring the various routes to a green card (marry a Hooters waitress, become an informer for the FBI etc...)
Assuming no jet time:
The perfect candidate in Europe has 200 hours and is fresh out of flight school. More hours are seen as a bad thing (generally) because they want to train you in multi piot operations as early as possible.
The perfect candidate in the US has 1500 hours as a CFI. More hours are seen as a good thing because they make you a better pilot.
Personally if I had to do it all again I would cover all bases:
1) get an M1 visa and persue ONLY the FAA Private in 4-6 weeks.
2) do the CAA/EASA exams.
3) Apply for an F1 visa for IR, CPL and CFI.
4) Go back to the States and get the FAA IR and 50 hours PIC under IFR.
5) Approaching 180TT I'd return home to take the CBIR (ICAO > CAA route - training as required) and the 15 hour CPL course.
6) Return to the US and fly the remaining 50 hours for CPL from the right seat, concurrently training for CPL and CFI, Take both tests on the same day. (Yes you can do this!)
8) Work as a flight instructor in the US building towards 1500 hours.
9) Get CAA MEP and MEIR conversion (approx 10 hours) and MCC
10) Apply for cadet jobs with a CV that shows only 200 hours.
11) Continue in the US building flight hours whilst exploring the various routes to a green card (marry a Hooters waitress, become an informer for the FBI etc...)
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 12
Likes: 4
From: Denmark
continue flying (increasing hours thus reducing your chances),
or stop flying (deteriorating your skills, and producing a gap in the logbook, also reducing your chances)?
So you have to be hired somewhere no matter what soon and fast, otherwise you are forked?
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2023
Posts: 72
Likes: 1
From: United Kingdom
I don't quite understand this statement to be honest.
So if I do not secure an airline job early out of the gate should I keep flying and make my chances even slimmer in future or should I just retire - stopping flying altogether?
Also as B2N2 mentioned, isn't CFI hour building the way the vast majority do it rather than paying >$100 hourly for 1,500 hours?
I get where you're coming from that several thousand hours as a CFI doesn't really come with any major major advantages but does it seriously hurt you more than it helps?
Apologies if I am getting things wrong as I am just asking questions but I'm quite confused
So if I do not secure an airline job early out of the gate should I keep flying and make my chances even slimmer in future or should I just retire - stopping flying altogether?
Also as B2N2 mentioned, isn't CFI hour building the way the vast majority do it rather than paying >$100 hourly for 1,500 hours?
I get where you're coming from that several thousand hours as a CFI doesn't really come with any major major advantages but does it seriously hurt you more than it helps?
Apologies if I am getting things wrong as I am just asking questions but I'm quite confused
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 587
Likes: 60
From: FLSomething
I don't quite understand this statement to be honest.
So if I do not secure an airline job early out of the gate should I keep flying and make my chances even slimmer in future or should I just retire - stopping flying altogether?
Also as B2N2 mentioned, isn't CFI hour building the way the vast majority do it rather than paying >$100 hourly for 1,500 hours?
I get where you're coming from that several thousand hours as a CFI doesn't really come with any major major advantages but does it seriously hurt you more than it helps?
Apologies if I am getting things wrong as I am just asking questions but I'm quite confused
So if I do not secure an airline job early out of the gate should I keep flying and make my chances even slimmer in future or should I just retire - stopping flying altogether?
Also as B2N2 mentioned, isn't CFI hour building the way the vast majority do it rather than paying >$100 hourly for 1,500 hours?
I get where you're coming from that several thousand hours as a CFI doesn't really come with any major major advantages but does it seriously hurt you more than it helps?
Apologies if I am getting things wrong as I am just asking questions but I'm quite confused
In America you need 1500 hours to fly for an airline. Mandatory. You’ve got to get them somehow. Lots of people do flight instructing.
In Europe by all means go and instruct if you really want to, but it’s not doing much for you, if anything at all. The standard is 200 hours and a frozen ATPL. Thats all they want. They are far more interested in the 25K you are willing to spend on the type rating…
The two systems are completely different and there are pros and cons to both.
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 587
Likes: 60
From: FLSomething
I couldn’t disagree with you more.
In the US 80% take the instructor route to get to the airlines.
In Europe you have the choice to either sit on your parents couch with 200hrs and a “frozen” ATPL or you can be smart and anticipate and have 1500 hrs (albeit little airplanes ) when you need to start looking outside of the EU for a job.
I find it hard to believe the arrogance in your statement.
- Former CFI / current airline pilot.
In the US 80% take the instructor route to get to the airlines.
In Europe you have the choice to either sit on your parents couch with 200hrs and a “frozen” ATPL or you can be smart and anticipate and have 1500 hrs (albeit little airplanes ) when you need to start looking outside of the EU for a job.
I find it hard to believe the arrogance in your statement.
- Former CFI / current airline pilot.
You having experience as a CFI is lovely… But it doesn’t change the optimum route into the RHS of a Ryanair 737, which is to get a licence and start flying 737s.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,970
Likes: 326
From: Hong Kong
So, in the EU, if you are not hired immediately straight out of flight school (for whatever reason), you either:
continue flying (increasing hours thus reducing your chances),
or stop flying (deteriorating your skills, and producing a gap in the logbook, also reducing your chances)?
So you have to be hired somewhere no matter what soon and fast, otherwise you are forked?
continue flying (increasing hours thus reducing your chances),
or stop flying (deteriorating your skills, and producing a gap in the logbook, also reducing your chances)?
So you have to be hired somewhere no matter what soon and fast, otherwise you are forked?
Someone with 200 hours who graduated last week is Fresh, still in the learning mindset and hasn't got too much single pilot experience which might cause problems down the line. Jets are a multi pot operation and people with lots of single pilot time have been shown to struggle more in training because they have to unlearn a lot of behaviour. There is a prevailing mentality (right or wrong) that you have to train them when they're young...
This is why I advise people entering the pipeline to save some cash and get all their ratings single engine only. They way they've 'saved' the exams, only spend half their budget, got through 85% of the training but not actually 'finished' - they can assess the market with a 2 month lead-time rather than a 2 year lead-time.
(a) If there's a hiring frenzy they can finish up with MEP/MEIR (add on which saves money)/MCC and start applying, or
(b) If there aren't many jobs and competition is fierce they can wait for the market to turn, finish up and emerge with a 'fresh' licence.
