Not getting enough flight training in flight school
''Going in to plan for flights I wont get is not going to help in any way''.
Getting up early and going in fully prepared to fly is exactly what you will do when you get an airline job, so better get used to it now.
She will be seen and noticed by others - students, instructors, admin etc, who will start to remember her.
Smartly dressed and turned out, pleasant, engaged and smiley, checking NOTAMs on a clipboard and maybe discussing the MET with whoever is around - "looks like that front will be coming through here at around 1300, should be OK after that.....", "and there is a Royal flight at xx:xx in xxx and parachuting at xxx "etc,
Chatting with the other students: "Hi, how's it going? which exercise are you doing today ?......Oh cool, I haven't done that one yet, any chance of me riding in the back, just to get my head around it ?".
And ask an instructor or a student about a theory or flying question that you are "trying to work out".
Etc.
The fATPL won't be handed to you on a plate. Yes the school should be helping, but you have to work bloody hard for it and put in lots and lots of hours yourself, (see next post).
.
Last edited by Uplinker; 11th Feb 2024 at 12:17.
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Hey, there wasn't much I did to overcome the issue of not flying. This was mainly due to the industry still recovering from COVID, so I just saw it as more time for recruitment to pick up. Despite the vast amount of schools advertising 18 months, I think 30–36 is more realistic. Yes, I now have a job flying. Regarding your comments about not being forwarded jobs due to being on the wrong side of management, unfortunately this is something I witnessed firsthand; they almost seemed to disregard the students who were actually good pilots and capable and put forward those who either worked for the company or had a good relationship with the staff there. Fortunately, this will probably be less of an issue for your daughter, as there are only a few operators who go directly to the school management to choose cadets; a lot now undertake their own selection process, allowing for an unbiased opportunity.
To quote myself:
Many years ago, I did my integrated full-time ATPL course at a well known UK flight school, in about 18 months, which obviously included all the flying, (in the UK), as well as the simulator work and all the ground school.
I commuted rather than staying on site, so was up at 0600 every week day, home again at 1800, and after tea, worked until 2200 every week day evening, going over my notes and practicing questions. I also worked a few hours on Saturdays.
I only (just) failed one exam - getting 74% and passing it on the second attempt - and had a very high average pass mark for all the other exams. I might have gone a bit over the top and possibly did a little too much work, but there is a lot of work to get through and I was funding myself through the course, so could not afford to fail.
Did you undertake a similar work load?............ If not, maybe do more preparation?
I commuted rather than staying on site, so was up at 0600 every week day, home again at 1800, and after tea, worked until 2200 every week day evening, going over my notes and practicing questions. I also worked a few hours on Saturdays.
I only (just) failed one exam - getting 74% and passing it on the second attempt - and had a very high average pass mark for all the other exams. I might have gone a bit over the top and possibly did a little too much work, but there is a lot of work to get through and I was funding myself through the course, so could not afford to fail.
Did you undertake a similar work load?............ If not, maybe do more preparation?
Of course it will help !!! It's what you will do every day on duty at an airline - and you won't necessarily fly; you might be on airport standby. (Granted, airliners can fly in IMC, which training aircraft cannot).
Getting up early and going in fully prepared to fly is exactly what you will do when you get an airline job, so better get used to it now.
She will be seen and noticed by others - students, instructors, admin etc, who will start to remember her.
Smartly dressed and turned out, pleasant, engaged and smiley, checking NOTAMs on a clipboard and maybe discussing the MET with whoever is around - "looks like that front will be coming through here at around 1300, should be OK after that.....", "and there is a Royal flight at xx:xx in xxx and parachuting at xxx "etc,
Chatting with the other students: "Hi, how's it going? which exercise are you doing today ?......Oh cool, I haven't done that one yet, any chance of me riding in the back, just to get my head around it ?".
And ask an instructor or a student about a theory or flying question that you are "trying to work out".
Etc.
The fATPL won't be handed to you on a plate. Yes the school should be helping, but you have to work bloody hard for it and put in lots and lots of hours yourself, (see next post).
.
Getting up early and going in fully prepared to fly is exactly what you will do when you get an airline job, so better get used to it now.
She will be seen and noticed by others - students, instructors, admin etc, who will start to remember her.
Smartly dressed and turned out, pleasant, engaged and smiley, checking NOTAMs on a clipboard and maybe discussing the MET with whoever is around - "looks like that front will be coming through here at around 1300, should be OK after that.....", "and there is a Royal flight at xx:xx in xxx and parachuting at xxx "etc,
Chatting with the other students: "Hi, how's it going? which exercise are you doing today ?......Oh cool, I haven't done that one yet, any chance of me riding in the back, just to get my head around it ?".
And ask an instructor or a student about a theory or flying question that you are "trying to work out".
Etc.
The fATPL won't be handed to you on a plate. Yes the school should be helping, but you have to work bloody hard for it and put in lots and lots of hours yourself, (see next post).
.
NOTAMS suggest Malaga hasn’t disappeared since last week, and the only tech issue a nav light out. And unsurprisingly ops haven’t filed your flight plan through volcanoes or Ukraine. The glamour
Got to get there though, and clearly that’s slightly tongue in cheek. Though I wouldn’t go overkill. If you’re not flying for a week and spend 40 hours just sat in an ops room chatting to the odd person, getting in the way and achieving nothing, that’s absolutely soul destroying.
OP. Just to agree with what you said about letting her speak to the school herself. Whilst you’re likely bankrolling the majority of it, and have a vested interest, you’re not the student. That you think she should be flying more is, to them at least, largely irrelevant. She is the customer. She is the one to be driving this. Otherwise the other students will watch as Daddy strides in and demands his daughter gets to fly more, well intentioned yes, but trust me that won’t be a good look.
She’s got this far, you don’t get this far without motivation and having something about you, she’ll be fine once she’s having the right conversations with them.
Guidance not direction would be advised.
Last edited by VariablePitchP; 12th Feb 2024 at 15:01.
Of course it will help !!! It's what you will do every day on duty at an airline - and you won't necessarily fly; you might be on airport standby. (Granted, airliners can fly in IMC, which training aircraft cannot).
Getting up early and going in fully prepared to fly is exactly what you will do when you get an airline job, so better get used to it now.
She will be seen and noticed by others - students, instructors, admin etc, who will start to remember her.
Smartly dressed and turned out, pleasant, engaged and smiley, checking NOTAMs on a clipboard and maybe discussing the MET with whoever is around - "looks like that front will be coming through here at around 1300, should be OK after that.....", "and there is a Royal flight at xx:xx in xxx and parachuting at xxx "etc,
Chatting with the other students: "Hi, how's it going? which exercise are you doing today ?......Oh cool, I haven't done that one yet, any chance of me riding in the back, just to get my head around it ?".
And ask an instructor or a student about a theory or flying question that you are "trying to work out".
Etc.
The fATPL won't be handed to you on a plate. Yes the school should be helping, but you have to work bloody hard for it and put in lots and lots of hours yourself, (see next post).
.
Getting up early and going in fully prepared to fly is exactly what you will do when you get an airline job, so better get used to it now.
She will be seen and noticed by others - students, instructors, admin etc, who will start to remember her.
Smartly dressed and turned out, pleasant, engaged and smiley, checking NOTAMs on a clipboard and maybe discussing the MET with whoever is around - "looks like that front will be coming through here at around 1300, should be OK after that.....", "and there is a Royal flight at xx:xx in xxx and parachuting at xxx "etc,
Chatting with the other students: "Hi, how's it going? which exercise are you doing today ?......Oh cool, I haven't done that one yet, any chance of me riding in the back, just to get my head around it ?".
And ask an instructor or a student about a theory or flying question that you are "trying to work out".
Etc.
The fATPL won't be handed to you on a plate. Yes the school should be helping, but you have to work bloody hard for it and put in lots and lots of hours yourself, (see next post).
.
Experienced pilots have planned hundreds upon hundreds of flights that didn't happen. Due weather, due scheduling, due tech problems, you name it. We generally don't have a record of them, but we learned from every occasion we checked the met, NOTAMs, tech records, weight and balance - and a dozen other things. Take every planning exercise seriously, and you'll learn from every planning exercise. Then when the aviation gods smile on you and you end up starting the engine(s), you've rehearsed all this so many times in your mind it all goes very smoothly.
I recall as a young professional being there in ops at before first take-off every morning I was able, routinely when I didn't have a flight booked but often did manage to grab a back seat, and learned from every such opportunity. Throughout my life there are trips, from cross countries to test flights that I planned, sometimes actively trained for, that didn't happen - and I learned from every occasion. When you're there in uniform in ops first thing every morning, it becomes normal and expected, as does the regularity of your flying because "oh yes, she's here, instructor X has a spare slot as does aircraft Y this afternoon, put them all together". Won't happen every day, but she still needs to be there so it happens at-all. And it will steadily get easier.
It won't all turn around in a week, but if she shows the determination and professionalism to make her own luck, it'll all come together. If she gives up because it's not solving itself in the first week then, bluntly, she's not Captain material. And nobody's going to recruit a co-pilot, or an instructor, who isn't Captain material.
G
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I'd just like to endorse this.
Experienced pilots have planned hundreds upon hundreds of flights that didn't happen. Due weather, due scheduling, due tech problems, you name it. We generally don't have a record of them, but we learned from every occasion we checked the met, NOTAMs, tech records, weight and balance - and a dozen other things. Take every planning exercise seriously, and you'll learn from every planning exercise. Then when the aviation gods smile on you and you end up starting the engine(s), you've rehearsed all this so many times in your mind it all goes very smoothly.
I recall as a young professional being there in ops at before first take-off every morning I was able, routinely when I didn't have a flight booked but often did manage to grab a back seat, and learned from every such opportunity. Throughout my life there are trips, from cross countries to test flights that I planned, sometimes actively trained for, that didn't happen - and I learned from every occasion. When you're there in uniform in ops first thing every morning, it becomes normal and expected, as does the regularity of your flying because "oh yes, she's here, instructor X has a spare slot as does aircraft Y this afternoon, put them all together". Won't happen every day, but she still needs to be there so it happens at-all. And it will steadily get easier.
It won't all turn around in a week, but if she shows the determination and professionalism to make her own luck, it'll all come together. If she gives up because it's not solving itself in the first week then, bluntly, she's not Captain material. And nobody's going to recruit a co-pilot, or an instructor, who isn't Captain material.
G
Experienced pilots have planned hundreds upon hundreds of flights that didn't happen. Due weather, due scheduling, due tech problems, you name it. We generally don't have a record of them, but we learned from every occasion we checked the met, NOTAMs, tech records, weight and balance - and a dozen other things. Take every planning exercise seriously, and you'll learn from every planning exercise. Then when the aviation gods smile on you and you end up starting the engine(s), you've rehearsed all this so many times in your mind it all goes very smoothly.
I recall as a young professional being there in ops at before first take-off every morning I was able, routinely when I didn't have a flight booked but often did manage to grab a back seat, and learned from every such opportunity. Throughout my life there are trips, from cross countries to test flights that I planned, sometimes actively trained for, that didn't happen - and I learned from every occasion. When you're there in uniform in ops first thing every morning, it becomes normal and expected, as does the regularity of your flying because "oh yes, she's here, instructor X has a spare slot as does aircraft Y this afternoon, put them all together". Won't happen every day, but she still needs to be there so it happens at-all. And it will steadily get easier.
It won't all turn around in a week, but if she shows the determination and professionalism to make her own luck, it'll all come together. If she gives up because it's not solving itself in the first week then, bluntly, she's not Captain material. And nobody's going to recruit a co-pilot, or an instructor, who isn't Captain material.
G
Here is the thing: your daughter will eventually be one in thousands of wet CPL holders with an MEIR and dreams of big jets. Beyond having a solid ATPL average and first time/first series passes, which is what will get you through the first sift of CVs (sorry but for that most part that is the reality) she will need to think about what makes her stand out from other candidates and, indeed, what she will talk about at interview when asked about how she dealt with/deals with adversity... The course she is enrolled in is a huge investment and she should seize on every opportunity to immerse herself in aviation/ops that provides.
A lot of aviation is hanging around/faffing; not just standbys (home and airport) but waiting for slot times, tech delays, you name it. Airport standby is a sore one as I have recently spent hours on it and not been called once, having to basically sit and
.Final point: plan a flight, chair fly it, use a procedural trainer, whatever…. Get those flows fluid (have the ATO’s manuals and AFM to read through too!), get that RT up to CAP413 standard and she will have so much more capacity free for the actual flying that she will be able to make the most of the fantastic opportunity you have afforded her.
I wish her the very best of luck, hopefully all comes good.
Edited to add: during her first type rating, she should expect a LOT of her work to be self study, including learning SOPs with her sim partner sat in a hotel room. This will be the reality of the rest of her career - you’re expected to do a lot of reading and studying in your spare time and to digest a lot of information, not just about the aircraft but procedures, changes to plates and the like and it isn’t spoon fed; no crew meals loaded? Who do you speak to? What does OMA say? When I went from Boeing to Airbus I spent ages in my study at home sitting there learning flows and changes on a “cardboard bomber” because that meant time in the sim or during line training time wasn’t spent on teaching me stuff I already needed to know… and that means a course completed in minimum footprint and that is what airlines want.
STF
Last edited by Speed_Trim_Fail; 12th Feb 2024 at 08:15.
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Thanks for providing updates on her situation. I really feel for her. Too many in flight training world have, sadly, been in the same situation.
Especially in the world of integrated training. Glossy magazines and slick sales teams mean very little in reality. When times are good, few schools are capable of training the number of candidates the sales team sign up. Given your comments on weather, if it's the school I am thinking of, they also have a lot of tagged airline cadets who receive priority due to stiff penalties they agree to with the sponsoring airline. All things the sales team will, of course, not tell you.
Though, having been on both sides of the desk, I think she/ you have a misunderstanding on the best approach. Perhaps she has just given up (and your post certainly makes it sound like she has. ''Going in to plan for flights I wont get is not going to help in any way'' is total nonsense I'm sorry to say), but giving up/ going legal isn't the right way to go. This sounds a bit harsh and it's obvious this has been going on too long which is disheartening, but she really has few other options.
She needs to become a de facto part of the operations/ planning departments. As I said, a constant positive presence with polite pester power. Everything done quite informally. She should chat with everyone. Become 'friendly' with everyone. She should be on first name terms with everyone and everyone with her. She should soon find out what is going on and find she is getting a few more slots than she used to.
And how is she trying to backseat flights? In my experience, going through ops is not the way. The best ways are, one, doorstepping instructors just before they fly with a students and, two, chatting to other students asking them if it's OK to backseat and then going through their FI. Again, just my experience.
Also, what is happening with her coursemates? Are they training at the same pace or are some racing ahead? Has she spoken to them?
I think this thread should serve as a warning to others.
- Don't get taken in by a good sales team or nice marketing.
- Remember modular is usually a lot cheaper and gives a lot more flexibility than integrated. It is likely the best option for most. Despite what the slick sales team told you...
- Do thorough online research, but take everything online with a hefty pinch of salt.
- Try to make lots of friends/ acquaintances in the aviation world. A personal review is worth twenty online ones.
- Visit the school you're thinking of training at.
- Look at the school, planes, classrooms, offices, ops department etc.
- Speak to current students outside of the earshot of staff.
- Weigh up the pros and cons (every school has both) and go in with both eyes fully open.
Especially in the world of integrated training. Glossy magazines and slick sales teams mean very little in reality. When times are good, few schools are capable of training the number of candidates the sales team sign up. Given your comments on weather, if it's the school I am thinking of, they also have a lot of tagged airline cadets who receive priority due to stiff penalties they agree to with the sponsoring airline. All things the sales team will, of course, not tell you.
Though, having been on both sides of the desk, I think she/ you have a misunderstanding on the best approach. Perhaps she has just given up (and your post certainly makes it sound like she has. ''Going in to plan for flights I wont get is not going to help in any way'' is total nonsense I'm sorry to say), but giving up/ going legal isn't the right way to go. This sounds a bit harsh and it's obvious this has been going on too long which is disheartening, but she really has few other options.
She needs to become a de facto part of the operations/ planning departments. As I said, a constant positive presence with polite pester power. Everything done quite informally. She should chat with everyone. Become 'friendly' with everyone. She should be on first name terms with everyone and everyone with her. She should soon find out what is going on and find she is getting a few more slots than she used to.
And how is she trying to backseat flights? In my experience, going through ops is not the way. The best ways are, one, doorstepping instructors just before they fly with a students and, two, chatting to other students asking them if it's OK to backseat and then going through their FI. Again, just my experience.
Also, what is happening with her coursemates? Are they training at the same pace or are some racing ahead? Has she spoken to them?
I think this thread should serve as a warning to others.
- Don't get taken in by a good sales team or nice marketing.
- Remember modular is usually a lot cheaper and gives a lot more flexibility than integrated. It is likely the best option for most. Despite what the slick sales team told you...
- Do thorough online research, but take everything online with a hefty pinch of salt.
- Try to make lots of friends/ acquaintances in the aviation world. A personal review is worth twenty online ones.
- Visit the school you're thinking of training at.
- Look at the school, planes, classrooms, offices, ops department etc.
- Speak to current students outside of the earshot of staff.
- Weigh up the pros and cons (every school has both) and go in with both eyes fully open.
Ah well at least there is some progress and positivity. Ive said for her, as advised by everyone here to been seen, hang around, keep chatting. Fingers crossed she wont go under the radar so she can get some extra flights to facilitate the CPL exam.
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Hi Oildrip,
I think everything that needs to be said has been done so already and I echo the sentiments of being proactive, show up and get involved.
Having worked at a certain airport where there are integrated schools operating, I clocked which students were regularly frequenting the apron and getting to go flying... usually the same ones who were getting involved with pulling the aircraft out of the hangar in the morning and being present in Ops. Training isn't about sitting around and waiting to be scheduled...
As for it being quicker to train as an integrated student, not so. I've spoken to students who have been in training for 2+ years at schools advertising "Zero to Hero in 18 months." I went the modular route and the school I trained with advertised MEP/CPL/MEIR in 8-10 weeks... which was about spot on, but it required being pro-active and scheduling flights yourself with your instructor and in many ways being self-sufficient, but it worked. I went in the sim for 4 hours at 0600 most mornings during the MEIR stage and then flew CPL / IR flights in the afternoon. Intense, but manageable and kept the skills up.
Tell your daughter to keep pressing them (nicely) and hopefully she'll have a change of fortune soon and get some regular flying!
I think everything that needs to be said has been done so already and I echo the sentiments of being proactive, show up and get involved.
Having worked at a certain airport where there are integrated schools operating, I clocked which students were regularly frequenting the apron and getting to go flying... usually the same ones who were getting involved with pulling the aircraft out of the hangar in the morning and being present in Ops. Training isn't about sitting around and waiting to be scheduled...
As for it being quicker to train as an integrated student, not so. I've spoken to students who have been in training for 2+ years at schools advertising "Zero to Hero in 18 months." I went the modular route and the school I trained with advertised MEP/CPL/MEIR in 8-10 weeks... which was about spot on, but it required being pro-active and scheduling flights yourself with your instructor and in many ways being self-sufficient, but it worked. I went in the sim for 4 hours at 0600 most mornings during the MEIR stage and then flew CPL / IR flights in the afternoon. Intense, but manageable and kept the skills up.
Tell your daughter to keep pressing them (nicely) and hopefully she'll have a change of fortune soon and get some regular flying!
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Hi Oildrip,
I think everything that needs to be said has been done so already and I echo the sentiments of being proactive, show up and get involved.
Having worked at a certain airport where there are integrated schools operating, I clocked which students were regularly frequenting the apron and getting to go flying... usually the same ones who were getting involved with pulling the aircraft out of the hangar in the morning and being present in Ops. Training isn't about sitting around and waiting to be scheduled...
As for it being quicker to train as an integrated student, not so. I've spoken to students who have been in training for 2+ years at schools advertising "Zero to Hero in 18 months." I went the modular route and the school I trained with advertised MEP/CPL/MEIR in 8-10 weeks... which was about spot on, but it required being pro-active and scheduling flights yourself with your instructor and in many ways being self-sufficient, but it worked. I went in the sim for 4 hours at 0600 most mornings during the MEIR stage and then flew CPL / IR flights in the afternoon. Intense, but manageable and kept the skills up.
Tell your daughter to keep pressing them (nicely) and hopefully she'll have a change of fortune soon and get some regular flying!
I think everything that needs to be said has been done so already and I echo the sentiments of being proactive, show up and get involved.
Having worked at a certain airport where there are integrated schools operating, I clocked which students were regularly frequenting the apron and getting to go flying... usually the same ones who were getting involved with pulling the aircraft out of the hangar in the morning and being present in Ops. Training isn't about sitting around and waiting to be scheduled...
As for it being quicker to train as an integrated student, not so. I've spoken to students who have been in training for 2+ years at schools advertising "Zero to Hero in 18 months." I went the modular route and the school I trained with advertised MEP/CPL/MEIR in 8-10 weeks... which was about spot on, but it required being pro-active and scheduling flights yourself with your instructor and in many ways being self-sufficient, but it worked. I went in the sim for 4 hours at 0600 most mornings during the MEIR stage and then flew CPL / IR flights in the afternoon. Intense, but manageable and kept the skills up.
Tell your daughter to keep pressing them (nicely) and hopefully she'll have a change of fortune soon and get some regular flying!
