Our son wants to be an airline pilot... I have some questions :)
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 3
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From: London
[QUOTE=T Father;11229807]Thank you very much for the feedback & advice, seems that the cost of learning is such a huge part of flying. Have you met many pilots at 21 or 22 years old flying?
He says EasyJet has courses in the UK & RyanAir also offer a training program :?
I’m 21, and working as a flight instructor. Right now, there really aren’t that many jobs, and the people who are coming out of training and walking into airline jobs are having to pay large amounts for it…
Ryanair would be a great place to start, and I have friends who are paying for it, but it’s another -£35,000 on top of what you’ve already paid for all of your flight training so far. Not to mention, that you have to be an EASA licence holder, which is a whole different painful topic. It’s important to note, that the £35,000 doesn’t guarantee you a job, it’s just a training contract.
In terms of the EasyJet program, it’s just an MPL, so that comes with it’s own issues. They also use CAE as their provider, which is why the cost of it is £100,000+, which is enough to deter most people.
if your son wants to be a pilot, your best bet is getting him going down the modular route which is significantly cheaper, and you still have the same licence in the end. Depending how fast you want to train, it can be as fast as 2 years from zero to fATPL! He’ll gain loads of experience along the way, and then there’s opportunities for things like becoming an instructor once he qualifies in the event that there aren’t airline jobs at the time.
whatever you do, don’t fall into the trap of handing over more money than you really need to!
best of luck!
He says EasyJet has courses in the UK & RyanAir also offer a training program :?
I’m 21, and working as a flight instructor. Right now, there really aren’t that many jobs, and the people who are coming out of training and walking into airline jobs are having to pay large amounts for it…
Ryanair would be a great place to start, and I have friends who are paying for it, but it’s another -£35,000 on top of what you’ve already paid for all of your flight training so far. Not to mention, that you have to be an EASA licence holder, which is a whole different painful topic. It’s important to note, that the £35,000 doesn’t guarantee you a job, it’s just a training contract.
In terms of the EasyJet program, it’s just an MPL, so that comes with it’s own issues. They also use CAE as their provider, which is why the cost of it is £100,000+, which is enough to deter most people.
if your son wants to be a pilot, your best bet is getting him going down the modular route which is significantly cheaper, and you still have the same licence in the end. Depending how fast you want to train, it can be as fast as 2 years from zero to fATPL! He’ll gain loads of experience along the way, and then there’s opportunities for things like becoming an instructor once he qualifies in the event that there aren’t airline jobs at the time.
whatever you do, don’t fall into the trap of handing over more money than you really need to!
best of luck!
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 351
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From: uk
For context, I've been flying 40+years. commercial, military, gliding, private, display 28,000 hours. Still love my job!
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 42
Likes: 1
From: Home Counties
I started my flying career in 2016 on a semi sponsored scheme with a big airline. I did an integrated course at Oxford. I am now 45 and am a senior first officer on the A320. The day job is great and my colleagues are brilliant. The pay is more than double what I was earning in my former career and I am home a lot more and a lot less tired.
However your training is a big investment and may never pay off if you dont have the right aptitude for the job. If he really wants to do this then he'll have to make it happen for himself and not rely on his dad to do the research. If you want a flying career these days your options are: join the military, self sponsor in the hope you hit the Labour Market at the right moment when you have your fATPL or do some thing else till an opportunity comes your way. BALPA and the Honourable Company of Air pilots are two bodies he should have a look at. Especially the aptitude testing day the latter offers. Don't believe any of the hype from the big flight schools. The industry is volatile and as mentioned above luck and timing has far more influence on your career than competence.
However your training is a big investment and may never pay off if you dont have the right aptitude for the job. If he really wants to do this then he'll have to make it happen for himself and not rely on his dad to do the research. If you want a flying career these days your options are: join the military, self sponsor in the hope you hit the Labour Market at the right moment when you have your fATPL or do some thing else till an opportunity comes your way. BALPA and the Honourable Company of Air pilots are two bodies he should have a look at. Especially the aptitude testing day the latter offers. Don't believe any of the hype from the big flight schools. The industry is volatile and as mentioned above luck and timing has far more influence on your career than competence.
Joined: Sep 2010
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: by the seaside
Beauty
There will always be whingers but if you want to fly and put everything into it very little beats looking down on the earth from 10ft or 5 miles.
One of my late friends had everything but moaned the whole time..fast jets for 20 years concurrently being paid for his training course then airline flying on salary better than Air France. Company went skint and he took a million from his pension fund to play vintage aircraft restoration and airshows ignoring advice. Turned down flying Thundercity kit..then flew executive jets for oligarchs tax free..last was a Chinese billionaire who treated him as a taxi driver whilst paying him probably on a quarter of a million salary. Young family with a pretty French wife. Heart attack did him.
Contrast that with the permanent (own choice) first officer 787 who checked me out in the aerobatic glider 24 years ago, sold paragliding to me (he and his late twin had set two world records) and is heavily into a flying charity. Can't do enough to share the passion.
Great life but not the best for family life unless you are lucky and have an understanding Mrs.
One of my late friends had everything but moaned the whole time..fast jets for 20 years concurrently being paid for his training course then airline flying on salary better than Air France. Company went skint and he took a million from his pension fund to play vintage aircraft restoration and airshows ignoring advice. Turned down flying Thundercity kit..then flew executive jets for oligarchs tax free..last was a Chinese billionaire who treated him as a taxi driver whilst paying him probably on a quarter of a million salary. Young family with a pretty French wife. Heart attack did him.
Contrast that with the permanent (own choice) first officer 787 who checked me out in the aerobatic glider 24 years ago, sold paragliding to me (he and his late twin had set two world records) and is heavily into a flying charity. Can't do enough to share the passion.
Great life but not the best for family life unless you are lucky and have an understanding Mrs.
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 50
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From: UK
I started my flying career in 2016 on a semi sponsored scheme with a big airline. I did an integrated course at Oxford. I am now 45 and am a senior first officer on the A320. The day job is great and my colleagues are brilliant. The pay is more than double what I was earning in my former career and I am home a lot more and a lot less tired.
However your training is a big investment and may never pay off if you dont have the right aptitude for the job. If he really wants to do this then he'll have to make it happen for himself and not rely on his dad to do the research. If you want a flying career these days your options are: join the military, self sponsor in the hope you hit the Labour Market at the right moment when you have your fATPL or do some thing else till an opportunity comes your way. BALPA and the Honourable Company of Air pilots are two bodies he should have a look at. Especially the aptitude testing day the latter offers. Don't believe any of the hype from the big flight schools. The industry is volatile and as mentioned above luck and timing has far more influence on your career than competence.
However your training is a big investment and may never pay off if you dont have the right aptitude for the job. If he really wants to do this then he'll have to make it happen for himself and not rely on his dad to do the research. If you want a flying career these days your options are: join the military, self sponsor in the hope you hit the Labour Market at the right moment when you have your fATPL or do some thing else till an opportunity comes your way. BALPA and the Honourable Company of Air pilots are two bodies he should have a look at. Especially the aptitude testing day the latter offers. Don't believe any of the hype from the big flight schools. The industry is volatile and as mentioned above luck and timing has far more influence on your career than competence.
Joined: Nov 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 620
Likes: 136
From: UK
Originally Posted by Capewell View Post
By my maths (45 - 2022 + 2016 = 39), yes, it does mean (s)he was 39 +/- 1 year when (s)he started in 2016.
I started my flying career in 2016 on a semi sponsored scheme with a big airline. I did an integrated course at Oxford. I am now 45
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 200
Likes: 9
From: U.K.
I know 3 airline pilots.
1 captain and 2 First Officers.
They all have shares in light aircraft (as do I), there’s a reason commercial pilots also fly other aircraft.
I was talking to a commercial Captain the other day who is saving up for an RV.
OP, the question to ask is whether your son wants to fly or whether he wants to be an airline pilot. They’re not necessarily quite the same thing.
I love procedures and RT, I’d quite enjoy being an airline pilot. I also enjoy swooping around though, so, I have a well paid job in IT and I do both in light aircraft.
1 captain and 2 First Officers.
They all have shares in light aircraft (as do I), there’s a reason commercial pilots also fly other aircraft.
I was talking to a commercial Captain the other day who is saving up for an RV.
OP, the question to ask is whether your son wants to fly or whether he wants to be an airline pilot. They’re not necessarily quite the same thing.
I love procedures and RT, I’d quite enjoy being an airline pilot. I also enjoy swooping around though, so, I have a well paid job in IT and I do both in light aircraft.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 472
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From: SAUDI
Plenty of advice that is pertinent. I think you son's reason to fly, as you stated, is to become a commercial pilot and see the world. Well why does he want to become a commercial pilot. Appears to be a bit of a romantic notion. Mind you I loved the idea of air travel as a very young bloke but after a few trips to England the shine wore off very quickly. I dare say it is the same with the attraction of flying and after the first few years the shine dulls. Also the initial attraction of staying at "5" (prob 2 now) star hotels with a bunch of attractive people also loses it's shine.
If he wants to see the world there are other careers that will be more secure with less of an arduous path (unless you are well enough to pay all up front) and pay more which will allow him to fly wherever he wants. If he wants to be a pilot, well as kghfg said, there is a reason that a lot of commercial pilots have there own or part share in an aircraft that does not have auto pilot. Going the military pathway will provide a reasonable amount of hack rack and zoom even if it is only during training with the added bonus of no out of pocket cost but some time cost.
He really needs to be sure of why he wants to be a commercial pilot. Is it a romantic notion and if so he need's to take a hard look at the reality of this career.
If he wants to see the world there are other careers that will be more secure with less of an arduous path (unless you are well enough to pay all up front) and pay more which will allow him to fly wherever he wants. If he wants to be a pilot, well as kghfg said, there is a reason that a lot of commercial pilots have there own or part share in an aircraft that does not have auto pilot. Going the military pathway will provide a reasonable amount of hack rack and zoom even if it is only during training with the added bonus of no out of pocket cost but some time cost.
He really needs to be sure of why he wants to be a commercial pilot. Is it a romantic notion and if so he need's to take a hard look at the reality of this career.
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: Hong Kong
Joined: Apr 2020
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From: Europe
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Hong Kong
It all depends on the airline and the current market conditions. Ryanair are known for wanting younger more impressionable people with no life experience so that they do as they're told and don't complain. Easyjet are known for milking pilots for all they're worth via the integrated system. There are still a lot of other options where age and money aren't important. It's always been feast or famine in the airline world, and we're at rock bottom now so there will be a pilot shortage in the next few years (it's already hitting the US) so just make sure you've got a licence and a pulse.
Joined: May 2022
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From: UK
This is my concern. I'm 26 and will be 29/30 by the time I'm sending my CV out. I know I'm not old, but my main concern is what the typical airlines that non TR 200hr guys apply to, prefer to see.
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 41
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From: Europe
It all depends on the airline and the current market conditions. Ryanair are known for wanting younger more impressionable people with no life experience so that they do as they're told and don't complain. Easyjet are known for milking pilots for all they're worth via the integrated system. There are still a lot of other options where age and money aren't important. It's always been feast or famine in the airline world, and we're at rock bottom now so there will be a pilot shortage in the next few years (it's already hitting the US) so just make sure you've got a licence and a pulse.
Professional Student
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: My Secret Island Lair
I wish your predictions about pilot shortage will be correct in Europe!! Everytime I hear or read about pilot shortage I can't avoid thinking is just a myth, but hopefully this time is correct. My plan is to have everything ready by mid-2024, I am in my mid 30s and would love to accomplish my dream as a child... and still as a young adult
And a lot of airlines know this, and exploit accordingly, until we end up with people accepting peanuts to fly, paying for type ratings, working for free, or in some cases, paying to fly....
Joined: Apr 2020
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From: Europe
With the greatest respect (you may well not be guilty of this, but there are plenty who are) herein lies the nub of the problem; there are lots of aspiring commercial pilots who have dreamed of flying for a living. Somewhere along the way, in the process of chasing this dream, they forget that it is still a job, and should be treated as such. What happens is they end up accepting ever worse Ts & Cs to achieve their dream.
And a lot of airlines know this, and exploit accordingly, until we end up with people accepting peanuts to fly, paying for type ratings, working for free, or in some cases, paying to fly....
And a lot of airlines know this, and exploit accordingly, until we end up with people accepting peanuts to fly, paying for type ratings, working for free, or in some cases, paying to fly....
The good side about having an additional degree and experience, is that you do not need to accept whatever type of T&Cs your are offered at the very beginning after a fresh CPL licence, without even blinking...
That should be the standard in any case tho, but I reckon we are far from there sadly.
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 50
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From: UK
With the greatest respect (you may well not be guilty of this, but there are plenty who are) herein lies the nub of the problem; there are lots of aspiring commercial pilots who have dreamed of flying for a living. Somewhere along the way, in the process of chasing this dream, they forget that it is still a job, and should be treated as such. What happens is they end up accepting ever worse Ts & Cs to achieve their dream.
And a lot of airlines know this, and exploit accordingly, until we end up with people accepting peanuts to fly, paying for type ratings, working for free, or in some cases, paying to fly....
And a lot of airlines know this, and exploit accordingly, until we end up with people accepting peanuts to fly, paying for type ratings, working for free, or in some cases, paying to fly....
But it's not for me and I have no plans on settling down any time soon and have nothing really tieing me down anyway and that's why I'm looking at being a pilot rather than it being a dream. Living out of a suitcase jumping from hotel to hotel in a less than desirable part of Europe? No problem. Conditions and pay for entry level seem shameful for the work that has to be put in to get there.
Joined: Nov 1999
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From: UK
You will call me cynical, but unfortunately pilots and their union(s) do not stand up for themselves.
Longer EASA duty times were allowed in with barely a murmur. UK allowing EASA licensed pilots but not the other way round. Pay and conditions are dropping.
I even had incredulous looks years ago from my own colleagues when I suggested that we lobbied to stop flying on Christmas Day. (Yes, I know it is lucrative for the airline, but we crews got no bonus for it - most other trades would get double or triple pay - and if the flights did not exist, passengers would simply fly before or after Christmas.)
So we see pilots now paying frankly obscene amounts to get themselves trained and type-rated, and then have to jump through numerous hoops and then possibly even have to pay to be employed, then have long duty days, but it's OK because there is a fatigue reporting system
PS, I started flying aged around 35, starting with night mail runs on very old, basic turbo-props, but ending up on the A330 before Covid struck. However, that was years ago, I don't know if it would be possible today.
Longer EASA duty times were allowed in with barely a murmur. UK allowing EASA licensed pilots but not the other way round. Pay and conditions are dropping.
I even had incredulous looks years ago from my own colleagues when I suggested that we lobbied to stop flying on Christmas Day. (Yes, I know it is lucrative for the airline, but we crews got no bonus for it - most other trades would get double or triple pay - and if the flights did not exist, passengers would simply fly before or after Christmas.)
So we see pilots now paying frankly obscene amounts to get themselves trained and type-rated, and then have to jump through numerous hoops and then possibly even have to pay to be employed, then have long duty days, but it's OK because there is a fatigue reporting system
PS, I started flying aged around 35, starting with night mail runs on very old, basic turbo-props, but ending up on the A330 before Covid struck. However, that was years ago, I don't know if it would be possible today.
