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Our son wants to be an airline pilot... I have some questions :)

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Our son wants to be an airline pilot... I have some questions :)

Old 19th May 2022, 19:23
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Melrose
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There was a thread on PRune a year or two ago which covered this topic pretty thoroughly. The conclusions then were to get a good degree in engineering from a university that was recognised by the professional body that registers.engineers so that you have a fall back position if such a thing as Covid ever recurred. I did that and got a degree (1st class), joined a blue chip company, and the local gliding club. I got so enthused by gliding that I never moved on. Flying gliders is a different experience from any other kind of aviation. If flying is what you want to do, then forget about commercial flying. Find another career, and just enjoy flying whenever you like and whatever you like. I think there is NO relation between commercial power flying and real flying. I got all the flying I needed as an instructor with the added pleasure of sending people solo. I did 2200 sorties in about 1000 hours every one of which I enjoyed. I flew 27 different types in a 25 year career.I am too old now to fly solo except on the simulator. A good sim is Condor though you will need a very good computer to run it. Flying should always be fun. Just my tuppence worth.

Old wooden ship pilot

Last edited by Olympia463; 19th May 2022 at 19:23. Reason: typo
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Old 20th May 2022, 10:49
  #102 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Olympia463 View Post
If flying is what you want to do, then forget about commercial flying.
This thread made me ponder a question: how many youngsters these days are driven by the whole image thing versus interest in the actual craft itself?

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Old 20th May 2022, 11:10
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2022
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[QUOTE=T Father;11229807]Thank you very much for the feedback & advice, seems that the cost of learning is such a huge part of flying. Have you met many pilots at 21 or 22 years old flying?
He says EasyJet has courses in the UK & RyanAir also offer a training program :?

Iím 21, and working as a flight instructor. Right now, there really arenít that many jobs, and the people who are coming out of training and walking into airline jobs are having to pay large amounts for itÖ

Ryanair would be a great place to start, and I have friends who are paying for it, but itís another -£35,000 on top of what youíve already paid for all of your flight training so far. Not to mention, that you have to be an EASA licence holder, which is a whole different painful topic. Itís important to note, that the £35,000 doesnít guarantee you a job, itís just a training contract.

In terms of the EasyJet program, itís just an MPL, so that comes with itís own issues. They also use CAE as their provider, which is why the cost of it is £100,000+, which is enough to deter most people.

if your son wants to be a pilot, your best bet is getting him going down the modular route which is significantly cheaper, and you still have the same licence in the end. Depending how fast you want to train, it can be as fast as 2 years from zero to fATPL! Heíll gain loads of experience along the way, and then thereís opportunities for things like becoming an instructor once he qualifies in the event that there arenít airline jobs at the time.

whatever you do, donít fall into the trap of handing over more money than you really need to!

best of luck!
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Old 20th May 2022, 12:58
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Olympia463 View Post
If flying is what you want to do, then forget about commercial flying. Find another career, and just enjoy flying whenever you like and whatever you like. I think there is NO relation between commercial power flying and real flying.
"NO" relationship? Really? How many commercial hours do you have that have led you to this conclusion?

For context, I've been flying 40+years. commercial, military, gliding, private, display 28,000 hours. Still love my job!
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Old 20th May 2022, 14:29
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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33 years in it. The last few I saw a huge change. Really nasty characters everywhere. My love of flying dimished. I became very disheartened. It became an unpleasant rat race. I am not one to consider "dog eat dog" but that is all I was getting back. I got out when the chance was right. I would hate to be in it now. Flying yes. The flying business? No frigging way!
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Old 21st May 2022, 06:16
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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I started my flying career in 2016 on a semi sponsored scheme with a big airline. I did an integrated course at Oxford. I am now 45 and am a senior first officer on the A320. The day job is great and my colleagues are brilliant. The pay is more than double what I was earning in my former career and I am home a lot more and a lot less tired.
However your training is a big investment and may never pay off if you dont have the right aptitude for the job. If he really wants to do this then he'll have to make it happen for himself and not rely on his dad to do the research. If you want a flying career these days your options are: join the military, self sponsor in the hope you hit the Labour Market at the right moment when you have your fATPL or do some thing else till an opportunity comes your way. BALPA and the Honourable Company of Air pilots are two bodies he should have a look at. Especially the aptitude testing day the latter offers. Don't believe any of the hype from the big flight schools. The industry is volatile and as mentioned above luck and timing has far more influence on your career than competence.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 13:23
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Beauty

There will always be whingers but if you want to fly and put everything into it very little beats looking down on the earth from 10ft or 5 miles.
One of my late friends had everything but moaned the whole time..fast jets for 20 years concurrently being paid for his training course then airline flying on salary better than Air France. Company went skint and he took a million from his pension fund to play vintage aircraft restoration and airshows ignoring advice. Turned down flying Thundercity kit..then flew executive jets for oligarchs tax free..last was a Chinese billionaire who treated him as a taxi driver whilst paying him probably on a quarter of a million salary. Young family with a pretty French wife. Heart attack did him.
Contrast that with the permanent (own choice) first officer 787 who checked me out in the aerobatic glider 24 years ago, sold paragliding to me (he and his late twin had set two world records) and is heavily into a flying charity. Can't do enough to share the passion.
Great life but not the best for family life unless you are lucky and have an understanding Mrs.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 14:50
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capewell View Post
I started my flying career in 2016 on a semi sponsored scheme with a big airline. I did an integrated course at Oxford. I am now 45 and am a senior first officer on the A320. The day job is great and my colleagues are brilliant. The pay is more than double what I was earning in my former career and I am home a lot more and a lot less tired.
However your training is a big investment and may never pay off if you dont have the right aptitude for the job. If he really wants to do this then he'll have to make it happen for himself and not rely on his dad to do the research. If you want a flying career these days your options are: join the military, self sponsor in the hope you hit the Labour Market at the right moment when you have your fATPL or do some thing else till an opportunity comes your way. BALPA and the Honourable Company of Air pilots are two bodies he should have a look at. Especially the aptitude testing day the latter offers. Don't believe any of the hype from the big flight schools. The industry is volatile and as mentioned above luck and timing has far more influence on your career than competence.
Does that mean you were 39 when you started your career back in 2016? How did you find it starting at that age?
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Old 23rd May 2022, 20:50
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capewell View Post
I started my flying career in 2016 on a semi sponsored scheme with a big airline. I did an integrated course at Oxford. I am now 45
Originally Posted by SoftwareDev View Post
Does that mean you were 39 when you started your career back in 2016?
By my maths (45 - 2022 + 2016 = 39), yes, it does mean (s)he was 39 +/- 1 year when (s)he started in 2016.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 23:46
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SoftwareDev View Post
How did you find it starting at that age?
Are you saying 39 is old?!
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Old 24th May 2022, 06:47
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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I know 3 airline pilots.
1 captain and 2 First Officers.

They all have shares in light aircraft (as do I), thereís a reason commercial pilots also fly other aircraft.

I was talking to a commercial Captain the other day who is saving up for an RV.

OP, the question to ask is whether your son wants to fly or whether he wants to be an airline pilot. Theyíre not necessarily quite the same thing.

I love procedures and RT, Iíd quite enjoy being an airline pilot. I also enjoy swooping around though, so, I have a well paid job in IT and I do both in light aircraft.
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Old 24th May 2022, 06:49
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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More that 39 is older to be starting as a pilot from what I've read.
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Old 24th May 2022, 08:20
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Plenty of advice that is pertinent. I think you son's reason to fly, as you stated, is to become a commercial pilot and see the world. Well why does he want to become a commercial pilot. Appears to be a bit of a romantic notion. Mind you I loved the idea of air travel as a very young bloke but after a few trips to England the shine wore off very quickly. I dare say it is the same with the attraction of flying and after the first few years the shine dulls. Also the initial attraction of staying at "5" (prob 2 now) star hotels with a bunch of attractive people also loses it's shine.

If he wants to see the world there are other careers that will be more secure with less of an arduous path (unless you are well enough to pay all up front) and pay more which will allow him to fly wherever he wants. If he wants to be a pilot, well as kghfg said, there is a reason that a lot of commercial pilots have there own or part share in an aircraft that does not have auto pilot. Going the military pathway will provide a reasonable amount of hack rack and zoom even if it is only during training with the added bonus of no out of pocket cost but some time cost.

He really needs to be sure of why he wants to be a commercial pilot. Is it a romantic notion and if so he need's to take a hard look at the reality of this career.
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Old 24th May 2022, 15:32
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SoftwareDev View Post
More that 39 is older to be starting as a pilot from what I've read.
A lot of people start between 30 - 40. It can take that long to self finance. Not everyone has the luxury of rich parents.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:30
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rudestuff View Post
A lot of people start between 30 - 40. It can take that long to self finance. Not everyone has the luxury of rich parents.
Agree. My question here is if airlines prefer youngsters in their early 20s or mid 30s more mature people with some other degree/professional experiencie aside from aviation. Guess depends on the airline or even the interviewers...
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:00
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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It all depends on the airline and the current market conditions. Ryanair are known for wanting younger more impressionable people with no life experience so that they do as they're told and don't complain. Easyjet are known for milking pilots for all they're worth via the integrated system. There are still a lot of other options where age and money aren't important. It's always been feast or famine in the airline world, and we're at rock bottom now so there will be a pilot shortage in the next few years (it's already hitting the US) so just make sure you've got a licence and a pulse.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:01
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Aviator172s View Post
Agree. My question here is if airlines prefer youngsters in their early 20s or mid 30s more mature people with some other degree/professional experiencie aside from aviation. Guess depends on the airline or even the interviewers...
This is my concern. I'm 26 and will be 29/30 by the time I'm sending my CV out. I know I'm not old, but my main concern is what the typical airlines that non TR 200hr guys apply to, prefer to see.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:29
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
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Originally Posted by rudestuff View Post
It all depends on the airline and the current market conditions. Ryanair are known for wanting younger more impressionable people with no life experience so that they do as they're told and don't complain. Easyjet are known for milking pilots for all they're worth via the integrated system. There are still a lot of other options where age and money aren't important. It's always been feast or famine in the airline world, and we're at rock bottom now so there will be a pilot shortage in the next few years (it's already hitting the US) so just make sure you've got a licence and a pulse.
I wish your predictions about pilot shortage will be correct in Europe!! Everytime I hear or read about pilot shortage I can't avoid thinking is just a myth, but hopefully this time is correct. My plan is to have everything ready by mid-2024, I am in my mid 30s and would love to accomplish my dream as a child... and still as a young adult
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:40
  #119 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Aviator172s View Post
I wish your predictions about pilot shortage will be correct in Europe!! Everytime I hear or read about pilot shortage I can't avoid thinking is just a myth, but hopefully this time is correct. My plan is to have everything ready by mid-2024, I am in my mid 30s and would love to accomplish my dream as a child... and still as a young adult
With the greatest respect (you may well not be guilty of this, but there are plenty who are) herein lies the nub of the problem; there are lots of aspiring commercial pilots who have dreamed of flying for a living. Somewhere along the way, in the process of chasing this dream, they forget that it is still a job, and should be treated as such. What happens is they end up accepting ever worse Ts & Cs to achieve their dream.

And a lot of airlines know this, and exploit accordingly, until we end up with people accepting peanuts to fly, paying for type ratings, working for free, or in some cases, paying to fly....
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:56
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hobbit1983 View Post
With the greatest respect (you may well not be guilty of this, but there are plenty who are) herein lies the nub of the problem; there are lots of aspiring commercial pilots who have dreamed of flying for a living. Somewhere along the way, in the process of chasing this dream, they forget that it is still a job, and should be treated as such. What happens is they end up accepting ever worse Ts & Cs to achieve their dream.

And a lot of airlines know this, and exploit accordingly, until we end up with people accepting peanuts to fly, paying for type ratings, working for free, or in some cases, paying to fly....
I understand and agree with your statement. However, I do consider this as a job and a profession, with great sacrifices and renounces btw, and as such, it needs to be well rewarded or at least, respectful for people who work in the sector.
The good side about having an additional degree and experience, is that you do not need to accept whatever type of T&Cs your are offered at the very beginning after a fresh CPL licence, without even blinking...
That should be the standard in any case tho, but I reckon we are far from there sadly.
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