Ryan Air and EZ Jet Looking!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

All I ever said was that:

a) Ryanair can be a very good company to work for.

b) In some respects you can't blame them for letting people self sponsor their ratings if there are enough fools lining up to do so.

I am glad this thread has attracted so much comment from so many people covering so much ground. Thats what makes it useful to Joe Wannabe. I doubt if it would have run to a page 3 had I not made my original reply on page 2.

WWW

<snip, cut + paste)



Flintstone - I had this curious feeling that you didn't like me...

So I searched all your posts on this forum - and Lordy! Of the 5 times you have posted here in each case it has been expressly to condemn me.

Now I am flattered that you care so much but I've got the message now - thanks.

The other notable aspect of many of your postings elsewhere is your dislike of Ryanair as an airline and Michael O Leary as a person.

It must have felt like Christmas when you discovered a thread with my comments on regards Ryanair!

I'll just get back to answering countless Wannabe emails about which school/course/route/bank/license/airline that I receive every day. Oh and continue to do that which I can to get ex-students and colleagues an airline job. Lets see what am I doing next week? Oh yes, spending an evening giving a recent OATS graduate a mock airline interview to help him prepare. Because he asked. Oh and what was I doing six weeks ago? Giving an ex-student a license check ride for free to help him out as he tries to keep current.

I ain't forgotten what its like to be a Wannabe. Its just easier these days if I say something you disagree with to throw mud in the form of I don't understand anymore.

Countering the argument and making your own counterpoint always produces a better thread and reads better to the population at large.

But if it makes people like Flintstone happy to have a pop at me then so be it - my lifes too good to get worked up about it.

Cheers,

WWW

[scroggs]

skysherrif

Apologies for the delayed reply - I have to work sometimes!

I didn't say that 200-hour fATPLs shouldn't fly jets, but I do believe that more experience is desirable before you get in a 737 rhs. It would appear that Ryan and EZ agree with me, as they both require applications only from 737-rated pilots - and these pilots will need 500 hours on type to be considered. Your paid-for 737 rating won't help here, I'm afraid.

As for low-hour pilots flying bombers in WW2, I think a comparison of chalk and cheese would be closer! The needs and priorities of the RAF in 1939-45, combined with the relative paucity of suitable candidates, forced that situation. The safety of the aeroplane and its contents weren't high on the list of priorities! The 'boom times', as you call them, when many low-hour pilots were getting jet jobs, really only lasted from 1998-2000 and were not typical of the last 20 or 30 years.

Anyway, I don't decide who gets what job where, I just expressed a personal opinion. Whether you share it is neither here nor there - but I'll bet that most experienced pilots would agree with me, as would the airlines' insurers!

The main points you all should take from this thread are:

1) Whether or not you agree with their recruitment tactics, EZ and Ryan offer good terms and flying for inexperienced pilots. Don't dismiss them because you disapprove of their procedures.

2) Paid-for, third-party type ratings without associated line training are a total waste of time and money.

3) The jobs market is beginning to move, so have faith. However, there are now, as there have always been, more wannabes than jobs. Work hard to distinguish yourselves above those you will be competing against.

4) Look beyond just the jet operators for that first job.

[redsnail]

Scroggs,
Agree with you 100%.
Esp point 4.
I have just got the nod to go onto the 330. Not A330 but SD 330.

Think beyond jets and get some experience up. None of it is ever wasted.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Directly following on from Scroggs' point number 4:

5)Willing suspension of disbelief and critical faculties.

Wannabees have incredibly finely honed skills whether here or amongst each other in discussing and rating aircraft, training organisations, instructors and beer. With the exception of the beer you seem to, year after year, come up with a very definite pecking order in terms of quality, integrity and value for money. It is remarkably consistent over many years and many cycles of students. A couple of FTO's trade very heavily on this indeed.

You bring the same judgements to bear on many other aspects of your life, again with remarkable consistency, but it goes completely out of the window when it comes to your first flying job.

If you can accept the points in the first main paragraph it must stand to reason that there is a pecking order within the airlines as well. Quality of training, maintenance, rostering, lifestyle, operational integrity and financial stability appear not to enter your thought processes until you are on your second or third airline.

If you're qualified and waiting for that first job use your time wisely and find out about our pecking order and really target the companies that will give you a quality foundation to a very long career. Just because it is big, shiny and doesn't have the name Cessna and Piper on the side doesn't mean it's worth wasting a chunk of your life and getting a lousy start. Crap companies operate aircraft that look very sexy to you - think about it.

6) Repitition of number 2): Don't do a jet type rating. You've already been warned elsewhere on this forum recently that a significant number of Australians from Ansett are jumping the JAA hurdles. If you spend any time over on the Dunnunda forum you will have read of their backgrounds and experience due to the unique nature of their job market. If you haven't visited that august forum you may as well know that these guys have got more hours than just about every single UK chief pilot interviewing them.

7) Errr, that's it.

Rob

[redsnail]

PPT, a fine post.
The Oz market isn't unique. You'll find a similar set of hurdles in Africa, New Zealand, Canada and the US. I think the European aviation market is the unique one.
It is the way in which the Oz CAO's are written that dictates the career path for many.

[Snigs]

An interesting read.

I asked Hamrah this question at the last Gatbash, his reply was very similar to those of Towers and Scroggs above.

I believe that his main point was that any Tom, Dick or Harry can go off and buy a type rating but the thing that (most) airlines are looking for is a person who will fit well into the team. "Would I want to spend 6 hours sitting next to this person on a flight deck?" is the question they need to answer. Having a type rating is of absolutely no use when it comes to assessing that.

My advice to all Wannabes here from someone whose been around PPRuNe for years (Between my first post and this, I have used the information here to help me get my ATPL(fr)). You must take heed of the advice of the experienced Captains on these boards (Towers, Scroggs et al.), you won't go far wrong!

WWW in your last post you seem to have raised yourself up into the realms of a Demi-God. Whilst your benevolence is admirable,

Lets see what am I doing next week? Oh yes, spending an evening giving a recent OATS graduate a mock airline interview to help him prepare. Because he asked. Oh and what was I doing six weeks ago? Giving an ex-student a license check ride for free to help him out as he tries to keep current.

your humility knows no bounds. People seem to be reacting to your “holier than thou” attitude and having read your last post I’m not surprised. Please stop digging a deeper hole for yourself, I can barely see the top of your head even now.

[Flintstone]

WWW

I have far better things to do with my time and energy than dislike you.

My feelings about Ryanair and MOL are well known and, oddly enough, shared by many though not of course Ryanair shareholders (real or imaginary).

The last time we crossed words was when you lambasted someone for having the temerity to be downcast and whinge about it in this forum. You abused him, called him names, held him up to ridicule and never apologised.

Then, as now, your stance changed as it became clear that many of the contributors thought you were getting ideas above your station.

Many wannabees, rightly or wrongly, come here looking for advice. We all know what they are going through, some of us just have better/longer memories than others.

As moderator you a have certain responsibilities that none of the 'normal' contributors here have. It is my and other people's opinion that you abuse those responsibilities with your conflicting comments, about faces and "...smoke and mirrors...".

If you can't give these people proper advice, solace or whatever it is they need leave them alone. They've enough on their plate without being patronised and fed false information.

Some of us also give up our time to help others, we just don't have to tell the world.

At least Flypuppy checked his facts. Must have missed your apology there too.

[whisperbrick]

Could n't agree more with you pprune towers,

Its naive to lust after the big shiny aircraft:granted a newly qualified CPL will take anything initially to get the foot in the door but then begin looking at the big picture:where do you want to go from there?

A suitable lifestyle should rank well above what you fly:after all it is only a tool to generate profit for your company and if you think it is somehow 'cooler' to fly a boeing than a shed wasn't it really a waste of £50000:should have bought a TVR instead.

Try and decide early on in your career whether you think you would prefer shorthaul,charter or long haul:the lifestyles are radically different.

personally I like shorthaul and am looking forward to returning to it:therefore I will probably never fly anything bigger than a 737 tops:am I upset:not at all.

look at the BIG picture folks !

[Luke SkyToddler]

FFS ... will you guys lay off it with the attacks on www? Why should he not be entitled to express an opinion just because he's also a mod? This place is so ridiculous sometimes ... the guy plays devil's advocate for a couple of posts, all of a sudden there's flame war deluxe and people throwing their toys out of the cot and threatening to not post any more, and accusing him of disappearing up his own @rse now that he's a jet pilot, blah de blah de blah ... it's like "1984" in reverse, the wannabes are the thought police and the mods are the ones getting taken down, for daring to occasionally post things that remove the rose tinted goggles a few of you live behind.

So lose it with all these ridiculous anti-www posts the lot of you, if you really have a problem with him personally then use the 'private message' button and spare us the boredom of having to read through all your stupid little dummy-spit posts that contribute nothing to the debate. If on the other hand you just aren't grown up enough to read all the conflicting viewpoints and make up your own minds on important issues like these, then you probably shouldn't be trying to get into this career.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Firstly, a word of caution to those of you having a pop at WWW... BACK OFF! Whilst you may be frustrated at the style of the commentary I do not see anything that is insulting. Just because you have interpreted it that way, having a go at WWW for his style of post is not part of the debate. Additionally, I personally resent the insinuation that we have somehow changed our editorial stance here just because someone advertises on here. By all means debate the rights and wrongs of paying for a type rating but consider the fact that if it wasn't for the advertisers on here yo wouldn't be having this debate in the first place!

Secondly, it would appear that some of you haven't been listening very carefully to the advice that is and always has been offered to you on this forum and at the bashes. I distinctly remember being criticised after one of my talks for being too negative about what happens after you get your shiny new fATPL. Well, if those of you who have been using this forum for the last five or six years haven't figured out that it is VERY hard to survive until you get a few rungs up the ladder then you have obviously not been paying much attention.

I would first of all advise those of you looking for that first job to remember the old adage about not burning any bridges. This is an inceredibly small industry and once you have been in it a few years you will realise how important it is to use ALL the contacts you make over time. I would also add that if you want to seriously screw any chances that may suddenly appear out of the blue of a job, just continue to make enemies of those who are already on the inside. It's not rocket science! More people get the tip off about a serious job possibility from 'friends and aquaintances' already in employment than from any advert you may see in Flight International.

I cannot give you any better advice than that already provided so eloquently by Robin or Tim. You may not like what you hear all the time but forewarned is forarmed. The few, bright, newly licenced pilots who are fortunate enough to get jet jobs within a short time of finishing their exams are the exception not the rule. Anyone who has gone into this without weighing up all the odds only has themselves to blame.

There will always be some people who will pay for a type rating in the chance of enhancing their prospects. There is NO utopia and there will never be one. As long as there are more pilots than jobs for them this will be the case. Those of you slagging off Ryanair are predictable. I also know many pilots who fly for Ryanair and the majority of them are perfectly happy with their lot. They knew what they were getting into and they are probably some of the best rewarded pilots out there. There are a few who are not happy with the workload but show me an airline where that is not the case.

As Robin mentioned, you have to talk to the people who have been in the company for more than a few years, the ones where the honeymoon period wore off years ago to get a real understanding of what the job is about and what the company is like to work for. There are real problems for some with the management style of O'Leary but the majority of Ryanair pilots I am aquainted with are more than happy for him to keep the company profitable as long as he doesn't get involved directly with them, and he doesn't.

I have always said that if you are going to go into this job and you are not one of the few who are lucky enough to be selected for full sponsorship then you'd better have the personality and stamina to get through the rough time and depression when the novelty of having passed all the exams wears off. It is far better to aim low and be pleasantly suprised if you get something better than you expected than to give yourself an ulcer by being bitter at your misfortune when it dawns on you that your primary goal is not likely to be achievable.

There are always going to be people who decieve themselves becuase they they believe that with their high pass marks in the writtens and first time passes at the flying stages that they are somehow just a step away from a good job in the RHS of a jet. What they don't realise is that no matter how good your CV looks, if you don't have the personality and maturity together with the confidence and experience of real life when you go for your interview you may still not be considered for anything. If you are having a bad day when you go for your interview and if you cannot impress on the people interviewing you that you are REALLY someone who they want to spend time with then it doesn't matter how good your passes were in the exams.

FYI, I paid for type rating! There, I said it! What I haven't seen in this thread is someone mention a type rating on anything but a jet. I have never advocated that you pay for a rating on a jet, especially if you have no or very little experience. As has been pointed out by others, it is more likely to be a hinderance and a waste of money. If, a very rare and big if, you were guaranteed a job by whoever did your type rating then there is nothing to debate really except to figure out how to raise the money. At the end of the day as long as there are people who are willing to pay for the rating there will be companies exploiting it and I have no reason to balme them. Most of them exist to provide ratings for experienced pilots but there will always be a few who think it is an advantage and will spend the money.

Before I am drawn and quartered about having paid for a type rating I had better explain. In the days before JAA I had attained my fATPL after a couple of years of correspondence courses and a stint flying skydivers in a C182 to build my hours up to the requisite 700 necessary at the time. After I had my shiny new licence I worked several odd jobs whilst going through the pains of sending out CV's and collecting the rejection letters they spawned. After more than a year of looking for work I met someone who flew a bandeirante and he suggested I try and get a type rating on that as it would be relatively cheap and there were quite a few operators of them around the country. I did a bit of research, got hold of the manual and some sample ARB questions and booked the written exam. After passing the exam I applied for a grant that was available to the long term unemployed and was given £500 towards the cost of a course that would enhance my prospects of as job. I made a few more enquiries amongst all the operators to find someone who could sell me some training on type and do the 1179 for me. It cost me another £3,500 and the promise that I 'MIGHT' be offered some work as an F/O on the bandit with the company. It took another few frustrating months but I eventually had a bandit type rating.

I was offered some freelance work as an F/O with the company but it was in fact costing me money to travel and stay near the airport for the few flights they were throwing my way. At least I had made some useful contacts in the industry whilst I was looking for someone to do my type rating and I used to stay in touch with them. One day I rang one of the companies to see what the state of play was and by chance an F?O had resigned the day before to go to Air UK on the F27. The food chain was working. As one F/O moved up to bigger equipment I was offered a full time salaried position as an F/O and they even paid for my uniform. I was another step up the ladder.

There is some luck involved but mostly it is a determination and a get up and do it attitude that makes the difference. Not everyone can do it and I would be interested to know the numbers of those who have given up at the various stages in their quest to become airline pilots. Even when you are on the ladder there are no guarantees but with time comes experience and with experience come opportunities. For the vast majority of airline pilots out there they have all fought their way up the food chain and it is not a bad apprenticeship. The few lucky ones who went straight from new licence to RHS jet have missed out on a large part of what makes the job enjoyable... the experience.

So, don't damn everyone who pays for a type rating. Some of them will be shooting themselves in the foot and may actually give you an advantage. Those of us who went for something less glamorous can pass on the experience and encouragement. Consider the fact that if none of you paid for your initial training and licence then the arlines would also have to pay for it.

Finally, make as many contacts as you can with those who are 'inside' the job and try not to fall out with them as they may just be the one who can answer the Chief Pilot when he asks them if they know you and what are you like. Burn bridges at your own risk!

[Broken Wings]

Danny
A timely post and posibly even an epitaph to the thread as I'm not sure where the debate can go now with that summary? After 5000+ posts you haven't lost the touch ... and no my tongue is not brown!

[Paterbrat]

The existence of Pprune as a reservoir of knowledge and advice is invaluable. A resource that would have been a great help on my own journey through the system. It is a struggle that is, as it has just been so succintly pointed out by our esteemed leader, undertaken by each and every one of us in this profession. It is hard always was hard and that is part of it's worth to us. Attitude plays a major part in it, and as one who in a small way hires and releases, I can only applaud the advice just given.

[Flintstone]

Skytoddler.

I never said WWW wasn't entitled to an opinion. I just have a problem keeping track of what that (changing) opinion is supposed to be. It all comes down to credibility.

WWW claims that I don't like him. This isn't true. I'm saying that he should make up his mind and if he wants to treat the whole thing as a game with multiple usernames and conjuring references, do it where it is less important.

This is only a bulletin board but in the wannabees forum things get taken a little more seriously. They have a lot to contend with. Having people give their own, differing, opinions is healthy. One person offering contradictory advice only adds to their load.


Danny.

I didn't say WWW had insulted anyone on this thread, I was referrring to his treatment of Smartcol in a previous thread.

There was, however, a strong inference that flypuppy was simply making up what he had to say about Ryanair's fleet. No apology was offered when flypuppy demonstrated seemingly sufficient proof that he checked his own facts.

If that sort of thing is ok by you then who am I to argue? It's your train set.

[Delta Wun-Wun]

And on the subject of "Train Sets" , it is the employers` train sets and they can set the rules on who gets a job as they see fit. MOL appears to have found a way of saving on a portion of training costs, however nasty it may taste. It is not fair ...but no-one ever said it was.
It has been stated several times on this thread now by people with a shed load of experience that a Type Rating with no time on it is not worth the paper it`s written on. How will it look on your licence whilst at the interview with the Turbo-Prop Operator with a B737 TR on your licence....."Yes of course I only want to fly your aircraft!!!"
Everyone knows someone who got onto Jets with 250 hrs and good luck to them if they did. Most people don`t. Paying for a TR with MOL might work for some. I can bearly afford the training never mind a Type Rating.
If as happened with Capt Ppune there is the offer of a job if you pay for the TR then I can see the logic. Every one is different and must make the decisions that are right for them.
I don`t like the way things are at the moment but it ain`t my train set and no-one asked me to start training.
When things pick up and the experienced guys get hired the goalposts will move again and hopefully in our favour.
Listen to the advice given it may save you loads of cash in the long run.
If your desperate to spend money there are still places available on the Wannabes Seminar where I`m sure this subject will be covered in great depth.
DWW

PS I`m sure WWW is not trying to wind people up and to prove it I`m sure he`ll buy everyone at the seminars a drink to prove it!!

[Snigs]

I sense a veiled dig at me…..

I have no permanent axe to grind with WWW, in fact I have found some of his advice very useful in the (distant) past. However, recently, there does seem to have been a lot of contradictory comments from him. I am, perhaps, exercising a little CRM, suggesting to him that he stands back and reassesses his tone and content, as a good FO would to a Captain who was digging a deeper hole.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

What contradictory comments in particular?

WWW

[African Drunk]

Could paying for type ratings not take us down the US line of first officer programs where you pay not only for TR but also for 500+ hours RH seat with a company. I don't believe all should do flying the hard way but I sometimes find it depressing when pilots are so eager scrabble over each other. Should not the situation at Cathay show us if we are all happy to sell each other out, aviation will not continue to be the career it was{with exception of BA who's protection from BALPA should be a lesson for all of us}.

If no one brought TR from Ryan Air I believe they would start paying again rapidly. Would it not be ironic if the FO's who pay £20,000 for TR's were replaced by the next generation who could pay the company £10,000 per annum to fly.

Do take note of what was said above about keeping in contact with friends in aviation. With all my interviews mates in-house were asked for a reference. Best of luck to all, you do get there in the end and before I got a "proper job" I got great experiences flying in places from congo to the carribean.

[AMEX]

A few years back I had been offered a tug pilot position during the summer. Great way to get hours plus the place also offered to pay for my food plus about 300 quids a month. Not great money wise but in that particular country it was near enough minimum wages and a much better way to earn some dosh for the studying year to come .
Having done some gliding there before the Chief Man knew me so when a couple of weeks later he received an enquiry from a prospective tug pilot, he told me about it.
The guy had offered not just to fly for free but also to pay £25 an hour to do the job I was getting paid for
Very politely the Chief Pilot told him to Foff and that he'd rather pay someone he could trust rather than someone who would be looking at this position from a "I pay, I am a customer" point of view.
I was committed to the place and the fact they called me back year after year was a sign. As a matter of fact, as I grew older, they realised that money wise my needs were also on the increase. With a fair amount of imagination and a different social system too, they have always very keen to keep me happy.
Just to say that as much as I wanted to fly, I couldn't do it for free. They knew it and it never happened (please spare me the comments about flight training).

[G-SPOTs Lost]

A couple of questions...

1. Why do mums always buy crap pop?

Seriously though, there is nothing more frustrating than people who have no other interest than getting themselves into a 737. Personally I'm very lucky I have managed to amass a couple of hundred hours in a corporate fms equipped citation. What a lot of people cant get their head round is the fact that its the company cessna 401 that would really float my boat. A dodgy autopilot, flying around at FL80 looking like an ice cube. Challenging flying, making command decisions in the early part of your career.

People are in a massive hurry to fly heavyish jets. Learn your trade, serve your apprenticeship. Getting into the right hand seat of a boeing is not the finishing line.

There is a fantastic thread in the wannabees forum called I think "The full story from start to finish" I suggest that people read it. The guy was given the responsibility of a £300,000 cessna twin and trusted to fly single pilot IFR on an AOC wih all that that entails.

To the second question:

2. What would impress a interviewer more, a 1000 hours of which 200 are public transport multi single pilot IFR or a frozen ATPL with a bought type rating with no experience at all.

All that demonstrates is that you can fill in application forms for bank loans.

My advice to myself has always to learn to be a professional pilot not just fly in the RHS of a modern EFIS equipped airliner. It will of course come one day hopefully I hope I will do it justice

Im sorry to shatter the illusion but hand flying airliners is probably frowned upon and inefficient nowadays and when you do get to handfly, you're nothing more than a biological autopilot actuator following the Flight Director. You might as well be playing on a Play Station2.

I dont know what the rush is for. Ive got training bills like everybody else. The thought of paying more money for a TR is just totally stupid in my own eyes. Should FR or EZY want to do it that way then let them. Dont get involved. There are many more jobs for wannabees around that dont involve FR or EZY.

Remember flying is fun, enjoy the rocky road to becoming a professional pilot and dont be in such a rush. When you are a training captain you will look back and laugh I guarantee it.

This is my own personal opinion you can all take it or leave it if you like - agree or disagree. If all you want to do is fly a 737 then now must be a very frustrating time for you.

IN THE MEANTIME work hard on your flying, learn your craft and when the time does come you will be first in the queue morally, in ability and hours.

[Flypuppy]

The last three postings are the kind of stuff we need in this forum.

Thanks for that African Drunk, Amex and G-Spots lost.