Ryan Air and EZ Jet Looking!!
I say there boy
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Good thread this, I've been watching it develop with great interest, as I too have been considering all options available to me at this point in time: finish the instructor rating I started / B737 TR / Shed TR / ATP academy etc.
With my first IR renewal under my belt (thankfully with minimum fuss and cash outlay), I'm looking at my next steps. I've heard more stories about people doing self-sponsored 737 type ratings and getting jet jobs from it, one with a certain new charter outfit not entirely unconnected to senior moderators on this site.
Now, speaking personally, and I stand by to be flamed here, if I were >95% certain of getting a job, I would mug the bank manager (again) and enrol on a B737 type rating course tomorrow. Luckily I'm still in enough good standing with the bank to do this, although all that money eventually has to be repaid.
However I am very concerned, firstly that it would not get me a job, and secondly that it would do me harm later in my career to be one of those flash gits who bought his way in. I'm not casting aspersions myself upon those who do this, more power to them, I am just worried about how potential employers would see this in the future. Todays line pilots make tomorrow's fleet managers and people's memories are long. All in all it's a high risk, high reward strategy.
So, all in all it looks like I'll be finishing the FI(R) rating I started last year and taking the well-trodden instructor route.
cheers!
foggy.
With my first IR renewal under my belt (thankfully with minimum fuss and cash outlay), I'm looking at my next steps. I've heard more stories about people doing self-sponsored 737 type ratings and getting jet jobs from it, one with a certain new charter outfit not entirely unconnected to senior moderators on this site.
Now, speaking personally, and I stand by to be flamed here, if I were >95% certain of getting a job, I would mug the bank manager (again) and enrol on a B737 type rating course tomorrow. Luckily I'm still in enough good standing with the bank to do this, although all that money eventually has to be repaid.
However I am very concerned, firstly that it would not get me a job, and secondly that it would do me harm later in my career to be one of those flash gits who bought his way in. I'm not casting aspersions myself upon those who do this, more power to them, I am just worried about how potential employers would see this in the future. Todays line pilots make tomorrow's fleet managers and people's memories are long. All in all it's a high risk, high reward strategy.
So, all in all it looks like I'll be finishing the FI(R) rating I started last year and taking the well-trodden instructor route.
cheers!
foggy.
Last edited by foghorn; 28th Aug 2002 at 10:11.
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Foghorn,
It's been a while since any significant numbers did a paid for jet type rating to 'improve their chances.'
The memory of the vast majority using this particular forum doesn't extend that far back so I promise this isn't a knocking exercise.
Use you skill and judgement to determine the reponse of an interviewer at a turboprop/regional jet/freight company when they see a 737 in your licence.
The buy your jet rating tactic blew up in a lot of faces but it is always something a normal person will try to forget and therefore this is the last place you will hear of such personal disasters. People will only write about it here when it worked for someone they heard about. Heads remain firmly in the sand regarding all whose chances of that first job suffered terribly.
The PFO letter is just about guaranteed when there is a chance of a really good first time job and they see that shiny jet rating in your licence.
I got a wage this month and apart from a few bob on the car owe nothing to anyone but if you write me and the other working pros off when we tell you the truth it really is on your own heads. It's very difficult to attract contributions here from experienced, working professional pilots because they see exactly the same attitudes that ruined or hindered people's career when they were starting out.
This is a huge pity as the majority of you end up only getting information from those who are trying to sell you something or are only a couple of steps further up the ladder than you. The second type is actually far more dangerous than the sales person - they have to justify the decisions and outlay they made. Telling you they porked it up takes a very strong person.
That's why we run the PPRuNe seminars - nothing to sell you and we are experts in telling you the stuff ups we and our friends made over the years
rob
It's been a while since any significant numbers did a paid for jet type rating to 'improve their chances.'
The memory of the vast majority using this particular forum doesn't extend that far back so I promise this isn't a knocking exercise.
Use you skill and judgement to determine the reponse of an interviewer at a turboprop/regional jet/freight company when they see a 737 in your licence.
The buy your jet rating tactic blew up in a lot of faces but it is always something a normal person will try to forget and therefore this is the last place you will hear of such personal disasters. People will only write about it here when it worked for someone they heard about. Heads remain firmly in the sand regarding all whose chances of that first job suffered terribly.
The PFO letter is just about guaranteed when there is a chance of a really good first time job and they see that shiny jet rating in your licence.
I got a wage this month and apart from a few bob on the car owe nothing to anyone but if you write me and the other working pros off when we tell you the truth it really is on your own heads. It's very difficult to attract contributions here from experienced, working professional pilots because they see exactly the same attitudes that ruined or hindered people's career when they were starting out.
This is a huge pity as the majority of you end up only getting information from those who are trying to sell you something or are only a couple of steps further up the ladder than you. The second type is actually far more dangerous than the sales person - they have to justify the decisions and outlay they made. Telling you they porked it up takes a very strong person.
That's why we run the PPRuNe seminars - nothing to sell you and we are experts in telling you the stuff ups we and our friends made over the years
rob
I say there boy
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ppt,
Your wisdom is duly noted and understood with thanks, however I'm not sure if you read right through my post before posting: it's the instructor route for me as I am not at all sure that even currently the type rating method would work. It seems like one hell of a big gamble for me. I understand that you may have been developing the theme for the benefit of others.
Notwithstanding your comments, it seems to me that the number of turboprop/regional jet/freight compan[ies] is diminishing these days, especially the passenger turboprops, in favour of 737 operators, with the death of Gill, BritWorld, Platinum, the possible effective closure of KLMuk to new pilots, CFE disappearing into BA, the merger of Brymon and BRAL into BACE which might be becoming a BA cadet training airline, etc. etc.
I wonder if this will be a factor in future hiring? Is it not possible that the job market has changed significantly since the last recession, providing more openings for (say) lowish hours 737 rated people and less for the old self-improver instruct -> turboprop -> jet route, who might spend years instructing on a low wage just to have to fund a type rating later on? On top of this all the TP freight operators I have talked to are currently asking for a type rating on an obsolescent type that you can pay them for, with no guarantee of a job at the end of it, and have done this for a few years. Even with the potential hazards of a shiny 737 type rating in a regional interview it could tip the balance in favour of doing one.
This is not me writing off the voice of experience, this is just an observation, the questions above are genuine not rhetorical, highlighting the thoughts going through my head at the moment. I would genuinely appreciate input from yourself and others.
cheers!
foggy.
Your wisdom is duly noted and understood with thanks, however I'm not sure if you read right through my post before posting: it's the instructor route for me as I am not at all sure that even currently the type rating method would work. It seems like one hell of a big gamble for me. I understand that you may have been developing the theme for the benefit of others.
Notwithstanding your comments, it seems to me that the number of turboprop/regional jet/freight compan[ies] is diminishing these days, especially the passenger turboprops, in favour of 737 operators, with the death of Gill, BritWorld, Platinum, the possible effective closure of KLMuk to new pilots, CFE disappearing into BA, the merger of Brymon and BRAL into BACE which might be becoming a BA cadet training airline, etc. etc.
I wonder if this will be a factor in future hiring? Is it not possible that the job market has changed significantly since the last recession, providing more openings for (say) lowish hours 737 rated people and less for the old self-improver instruct -> turboprop -> jet route, who might spend years instructing on a low wage just to have to fund a type rating later on? On top of this all the TP freight operators I have talked to are currently asking for a type rating on an obsolescent type that you can pay them for, with no guarantee of a job at the end of it, and have done this for a few years. Even with the potential hazards of a shiny 737 type rating in a regional interview it could tip the balance in favour of doing one.
This is not me writing off the voice of experience, this is just an observation, the questions above are genuine not rhetorical, highlighting the thoughts going through my head at the moment. I would genuinely appreciate input from yourself and others.
cheers!
foggy.
Last edited by foghorn; 28th Aug 2002 at 14:21.
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Good post mate,
My reply was written exactly because yours was the single post recently that actually weighed up the pros and cons of purchased type ratings along with a positive alternative route. It was written for those reading your thoughts and not you yourself.
As you know too well jet type ratings have raised their nasty little heads in several threads recently. Before they become flavour of the month and a training provider jumps onto a lucrative bandwagon you guys need to hear the other side of what they can do to your putative careers.
Your arguements are entirely rational and thought through but the truth has to be told to those who just listen to the stories they hear. A jet rating on your licence tells an interviewer at a good but non 737/jet company that you'll sod off just as soon as you can - nothing else.
Secondly, unless an interviewer attends the **** ups at major training providers they wouldn't know what an ACp or TPX or XZY course is if it jumped up and bit their backsides. Some of you are shelling out big money on so called advanced courses and the majority of people reading your CV's haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.
There is an entire layer of industry between you as wannabees and us in the seats of jets. That layer has its own agenda, living to make, companies and careers to improve. This is entirely seperate to what you want to do.
Spend a few months on this forum and you'll all find out which ones also share and want to further at least some of your interests.
Finish on an upbeat is what we tell our mods so here's the close.
The contract market is going demented - airlines and corporate. Even airframers are struggling to find crews for deliveries and demos. This of course is the market for the significantly experienced and there are few who willingly want this type of work. If we get a bit longer without martial unpleasantness or a significant player going bust the shuffle up through the industry will really make itself felt again.
It's all carefully hidden but savage undercrewing is really beginning to bite across a swathe of UK companies. There are a few of you who will really think about where you want to be in five years time and not just grasp at expensive straws. We hope to add a few more to that select bunch.
My reply was written exactly because yours was the single post recently that actually weighed up the pros and cons of purchased type ratings along with a positive alternative route. It was written for those reading your thoughts and not you yourself.
As you know too well jet type ratings have raised their nasty little heads in several threads recently. Before they become flavour of the month and a training provider jumps onto a lucrative bandwagon you guys need to hear the other side of what they can do to your putative careers.
Your arguements are entirely rational and thought through but the truth has to be told to those who just listen to the stories they hear. A jet rating on your licence tells an interviewer at a good but non 737/jet company that you'll sod off just as soon as you can - nothing else.
Secondly, unless an interviewer attends the **** ups at major training providers they wouldn't know what an ACp or TPX or XZY course is if it jumped up and bit their backsides. Some of you are shelling out big money on so called advanced courses and the majority of people reading your CV's haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.
There is an entire layer of industry between you as wannabees and us in the seats of jets. That layer has its own agenda, living to make, companies and careers to improve. This is entirely seperate to what you want to do.
Spend a few months on this forum and you'll all find out which ones also share and want to further at least some of your interests.
Finish on an upbeat is what we tell our mods so here's the close.
The contract market is going demented - airlines and corporate. Even airframers are struggling to find crews for deliveries and demos. This of course is the market for the significantly experienced and there are few who willingly want this type of work. If we get a bit longer without martial unpleasantness or a significant player going bust the shuffle up through the industry will really make itself felt again.
It's all carefully hidden but savage undercrewing is really beginning to bite across a swathe of UK companies. There are a few of you who will really think about where you want to be in five years time and not just grasp at expensive straws. We hope to add a few more to that select bunch.
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Rob - what can anybody add to that, it's both brilliantly put and true !
So listen-up all you wannabe's and take honest stead from those of us who have travelled the very rocky road that is aviation before you. For we do not want you to suffer the many trials and tribulations that beset our own careers - and hence much of the reason why PPRuNe exists, i.e. to put something back - and would instead have the journey both clearer and more honest ( e.g. w.r.t. your expectations and for those who would sell you useless & unnecessary courses, to say nothing of exposing the tactics of certain scurrilous employers, i.e. all - well certainly a fair few - tremble at the thought of being 'exposed' on PPRuNe ).
Veritably there is no hiding place for the aviation charlatans of this world, as they are now too easily exposed and, as knowledge IS POWER, we implore you to imbibe your fill from the fountain that is PPRuNe !
Ps. My waxing lyrical hat, in the style of Henry V(?), is now off - but I hope you get the point !
So listen-up all you wannabe's and take honest stead from those of us who have travelled the very rocky road that is aviation before you. For we do not want you to suffer the many trials and tribulations that beset our own careers - and hence much of the reason why PPRuNe exists, i.e. to put something back - and would instead have the journey both clearer and more honest ( e.g. w.r.t. your expectations and for those who would sell you useless & unnecessary courses, to say nothing of exposing the tactics of certain scurrilous employers, i.e. all - well certainly a fair few - tremble at the thought of being 'exposed' on PPRuNe ).
Veritably there is no hiding place for the aviation charlatans of this world, as they are now too easily exposed and, as knowledge IS POWER, we implore you to imbibe your fill from the fountain that is PPRuNe !
Ps. My waxing lyrical hat, in the style of Henry V(?), is now off - but I hope you get the point !
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FlyPuppy
I'm gonna get a type rating on a Miles Magister and what you gonna do about it, big man?
ElNino, Flypuppy is not only immature, he can't hold his drink and probably hangs around outside mens toilets .. However, the point he's trying to make is that this is a forum for wanabees, not 'blokes who've done it and pulled up the ladder behind them' forum!
And also last time I looked it was a pilots website and not an airline management/shareholders website! I think he's got a point and making it!
I think there's a limit to the number of hoops you can expect a person to jump through for a job .. if not, where will it end?
There's nothing wrong with having a pop at them for doing it and this is the place to do it in ......... so, back to the good old days of Pprune wannabees with scrapping and different opinions
Anyone got an idea where I go for a good 737-200 type rating?
I'm gonna get a type rating on a Miles Magister and what you gonna do about it, big man?
ElNino, Flypuppy is not only immature, he can't hold his drink and probably hangs around outside mens toilets .. However, the point he's trying to make is that this is a forum for wanabees, not 'blokes who've done it and pulled up the ladder behind them' forum!
And also last time I looked it was a pilots website and not an airline management/shareholders website! I think he's got a point and making it!
I think there's a limit to the number of hoops you can expect a person to jump through for a job .. if not, where will it end?
There's nothing wrong with having a pop at them for doing it and this is the place to do it in ......... so, back to the good old days of Pprune wannabees with scrapping and different opinions
Anyone got an idea where I go for a good 737-200 type rating?
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My personal opinion - and I'm pretty sure that Hamrah (JM), PPT (Robin), Captain PPRuNe (Danny), and numerous others will support this - is that self-sponsoring oneself through a jet type rating is a very risky undertaking !
Indeed it would be true to say that there is many an organisation that would have you part company with lots of your very hard earned money in return for that (supposedly) lucrative 'jet-qualified' addition to your license - HOWEVER having the rating is, I'm afraid, not enough.
E.g. (imho) Any reputable operation would be able to offer some level of 'line training' over and above the 'basic type rating'.
As to why ? Well, doing an intense ground school course, followed by the minimum amount of simulator, and a few tight ‘base-training’ circuits in the real aircraft ( all over a period of about 10 weeks, minimum ) does not make you a jet airline pilot !
It is crucial that the intense ground school/sim/etc is consolidated by an equally intense period and standardised period of 'Line Training' - and it is often for this reason alone that many airline Ops Directors / Chief Pilots will strongly caution ab-initio pilots against spending money on a self-sponsored type-rating(s), i.e. the whole thing is an enormous gamble - and so folks trained as such are often viewed with a somewhat jaundiced eye.
So, and unpalatable is it may seem, it might pay to remember that just because you have a (F)ATPL plus a shiny new (self -sponsored) jet type rating in your CPL license it does NOT guarantee you a job at the front of said same jet – indeed, imho, the thing that really seems to make the difference is that extra bit of 'sparkle' that you're able to 'bring to the party' (so to speak), i.e the stuff outside of the aviation arena.
Rgds,
Tony.
Indeed it would be true to say that there is many an organisation that would have you part company with lots of your very hard earned money in return for that (supposedly) lucrative 'jet-qualified' addition to your license - HOWEVER having the rating is, I'm afraid, not enough.
E.g. (imho) Any reputable operation would be able to offer some level of 'line training' over and above the 'basic type rating'.
As to why ? Well, doing an intense ground school course, followed by the minimum amount of simulator, and a few tight ‘base-training’ circuits in the real aircraft ( all over a period of about 10 weeks, minimum ) does not make you a jet airline pilot !
It is crucial that the intense ground school/sim/etc is consolidated by an equally intense period and standardised period of 'Line Training' - and it is often for this reason alone that many airline Ops Directors / Chief Pilots will strongly caution ab-initio pilots against spending money on a self-sponsored type-rating(s), i.e. the whole thing is an enormous gamble - and so folks trained as such are often viewed with a somewhat jaundiced eye.
So, and unpalatable is it may seem, it might pay to remember that just because you have a (F)ATPL plus a shiny new (self -sponsored) jet type rating in your CPL license it does NOT guarantee you a job at the front of said same jet – indeed, imho, the thing that really seems to make the difference is that extra bit of 'sparkle' that you're able to 'bring to the party' (so to speak), i.e the stuff outside of the aviation arena.
Rgds,
Tony.
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rob, excellent post.
scroggs :
are wannabes with 200h unqualified to fly a jet ? many ab-initio in many major european airlines flew with that kind of time in boom years. this is not to say that experience does not count
that some of them cant land a jet straigtht in cavok does not seem to bother anyone
airlines are just like your regular corner shop
RAF bomber pilots in WWII were end of duty on lancs after 500h.
I am speaking about heavy bombers in real combat conditions
scroggs :
are wannabes with 200h unqualified to fly a jet ? many ab-initio in many major european airlines flew with that kind of time in boom years. this is not to say that experience does not count
that some of them cant land a jet straigtht in cavok does not seem to bother anyone
airlines are just like your regular corner shop
RAF bomber pilots in WWII were end of duty on lancs after 500h.
I am speaking about heavy bombers in real combat conditions
I think the consensus is settling around self sponsored type ratings are a bad thing - don't do them. Which has always been my personal line.
For the current crop of Ryanair pilots taking this chance it has worked very well. This chance arises during recessionary times in the UK aviation market and dissapears as things pick up.
There are many happy and many unhappy pilots in FRA - like every airline you care to mention.
The sector has changed since the early 90's. There are fewer TP operators outs there and a heck of a lot more 737 operators. Hence a jet type rating course is not the esoteric gamble it once was for the self sponserer.
The advice remains though - unless you have a pretty definite IN to the company, don't pay for a very expensive jet type rating on the off chance.
Cheers
WWW
ps a very important thread this one.
For the current crop of Ryanair pilots taking this chance it has worked very well. This chance arises during recessionary times in the UK aviation market and dissapears as things pick up.
There are many happy and many unhappy pilots in FRA - like every airline you care to mention.
The sector has changed since the early 90's. There are fewer TP operators outs there and a heck of a lot more 737 operators. Hence a jet type rating course is not the esoteric gamble it once was for the self sponserer.
The advice remains though - unless you have a pretty definite IN to the company, don't pay for a very expensive jet type rating on the off chance.
Cheers
WWW
ps a very important thread this one.
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DON'T DO IT
When I payed for my B737 rating in Jan 97 with BM there were four of us on the course all fatpl , one had just come out the army and held rank as major with 4000 heli hrs myself and the others had less than 900 hrs total.I agree with Crashdive the course lasted 6 weeks, was very rushed and for this reason I felt the level of knowledge gained was poor, itwas all over too quickly and I felt that I had not got a sound start to an airline career. Immediatly after the course the army major was the only one to be offered a job with BM and straight away had to do another week of ground school followed by more sim. this just shows that the original course is not adequate.As for the rest of us one eventually got a job with GB but they put him through the entire course again because they probably thought the self funded course was no good, different SOP'S etc. The third guy went on to fly the 146 and eventually after a few interviews and frequently being told the rating is worth nothing without experience I got a job on the B737 eighteen months later! this was with a company who were type rating cap 509'ers anyway, so I am pretty sure the self funded B737 rating was a waste of money. Nowadays I feel that whether you have the rating or not its your personality and approach to the job, and will you fit in with the company culture thats more important.This certainly seems the case at EJ. So finally don't be tempted by the claims of training organisations, they are in business to make money,keep your money in your pocket and wait a little longer , that job will come.
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Yeah but its not extaclly going to help us wannabees..
You read there shocking application??
__________________________________
How do I make an application ?
You can only apply by submitting an on-line application via our Web-site www. Ryanair.com .
We do not accept applications in any other format, No Fax’s. No hard copy CV’s, No telephone enquiries, especially NO walk-in / drop-off CV’s in other words, no one will be able to answer your questions!
You must supply credit card details with your application in order for Ryanair to deduct a STG£50 processing Fee since when do potiental empolyers Charge you for "thinking" about your application??
If you are selected for Simulator Assessment and Interview there will be a further charge of STG£150 payable on the day MORE TO PAY!!!!
Important change from 5th April 2002. We will now only consider applications from 737 type rated pilots. If you do not meet the minimum requirements then please don’t apply as you will only be wasting your time and money. We have had a phenomenal response to date and now have more than sufficient applications from non type rated pilots to fulfil our requirements for full conversions to the 737-200/ 800. If you have applied to Ryanair before the 5th April 2002 then your application will obviously be considered for courses due to commence over the next six months. If you secure employment with Ryanair then your STG£50 application fee is refunded.
As i said no use to us freshly trained pilots, we can't afford to work for ryanair!
You read there shocking application??
__________________________________
How do I make an application ?
You can only apply by submitting an on-line application via our Web-site www. Ryanair.com .
We do not accept applications in any other format, No Fax’s. No hard copy CV’s, No telephone enquiries, especially NO walk-in / drop-off CV’s in other words, no one will be able to answer your questions!
You must supply credit card details with your application in order for Ryanair to deduct a STG£50 processing Fee since when do potiental empolyers Charge you for "thinking" about your application??
If you are selected for Simulator Assessment and Interview there will be a further charge of STG£150 payable on the day MORE TO PAY!!!!
Important change from 5th April 2002. We will now only consider applications from 737 type rated pilots. If you do not meet the minimum requirements then please don’t apply as you will only be wasting your time and money. We have had a phenomenal response to date and now have more than sufficient applications from non type rated pilots to fulfil our requirements for full conversions to the 737-200/ 800. If you have applied to Ryanair before the 5th April 2002 then your application will obviously be considered for courses due to commence over the next six months. If you secure employment with Ryanair then your STG£50 application fee is refunded.
As i said no use to us freshly trained pilots, we can't afford to work for ryanair!
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Reading that pile of anal slurry from the website has made me feel ill.
How could anyone want to apply for a job with that company? I couldn't bring myself to do it, I just couldn't.
Someone please tell me they're breaking an employment law.
BM.
How could anyone want to apply for a job with that company? I couldn't bring myself to do it, I just couldn't.
Someone please tell me they're breaking an employment law.
BM.
I say there boy
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metabolix,
I think you'll find that there are two camps here in those who are even remotely entertaining the possibility of self-sponsoring a 737 type rating.
The first is as you say, thinks they deserve a 737 RHS just because they have a CPL/IR. To be honest I think these people are a minority.
The second is just looking for any break into airline flying at whatever level, and can see that until recently the low cost 737 operators have been just about the only ones hiring. Therefore if you are considering a TR it sort of makes sense to get a 737 rating.
I'm in the latter camp (although I have decided not to do one without a firm job offer for the reasons I outlined in an earlier post).
cheers!
foggy
I think you'll find that there are two camps here in those who are even remotely entertaining the possibility of self-sponsoring a 737 type rating.
The first is as you say, thinks they deserve a 737 RHS just because they have a CPL/IR. To be honest I think these people are a minority.
The second is just looking for any break into airline flying at whatever level, and can see that until recently the low cost 737 operators have been just about the only ones hiring. Therefore if you are considering a TR it sort of makes sense to get a 737 rating.
I'm in the latter camp (although I have decided not to do one without a firm job offer for the reasons I outlined in an earlier post).
cheers!
foggy
My stance on this is that one way or the other, you'll end up paying for the TR, be it on a lower salary, bonding etc.
I know 4 people who went through the BM thing mid 90's, all where offered jobs in the end. Also, on full pay rather than reduced pay, plus, by the time the'd had a refund from the tax office (not sure how this works, but I'm told it's what happened), the TR only cost about 7K. (one guy messed up a landing and had to do a go around in the a/c at a cost of £43 a minute - note the risk).
For myself, I'm not prepared to get a TR, unless it's conditional on a job ofer, for two reasons - 1. which TR, and secondly, 6 weeks off work would pretty much terminate my employment.
Yonks ago, when I was trying to get an IT job, I was prepared to work for a period pretty much for nothing to get a job. Almost without exception, this was seriously frowned upon by all interviewers. If I offer to pay for my own TR, will this also be the case in aviation, and will my CV receive an even quicker PFO?
Much as I don't like shelling out 20K for a rating, I can't help but think it's the way it's going in order to get a job. We never had to pay for MCC's, but the same applies there.
There are just too many people chasing too few jobs, and what more natural filter is there for the airlines when times are hard than to get individuals to take this on. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of it, just I see it'll be the norm in a few years time.
S
I know 4 people who went through the BM thing mid 90's, all where offered jobs in the end. Also, on full pay rather than reduced pay, plus, by the time the'd had a refund from the tax office (not sure how this works, but I'm told it's what happened), the TR only cost about 7K. (one guy messed up a landing and had to do a go around in the a/c at a cost of £43 a minute - note the risk).
For myself, I'm not prepared to get a TR, unless it's conditional on a job ofer, for two reasons - 1. which TR, and secondly, 6 weeks off work would pretty much terminate my employment.
Yonks ago, when I was trying to get an IT job, I was prepared to work for a period pretty much for nothing to get a job. Almost without exception, this was seriously frowned upon by all interviewers. If I offer to pay for my own TR, will this also be the case in aviation, and will my CV receive an even quicker PFO?
Much as I don't like shelling out 20K for a rating, I can't help but think it's the way it's going in order to get a job. We never had to pay for MCC's, but the same applies there.
There are just too many people chasing too few jobs, and what more natural filter is there for the airlines when times are hard than to get individuals to take this on. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of it, just I see it'll be the norm in a few years time.
S
I can't see self sponsored speculative type ratings becoming the norm.
There would spring up a number of cheap and nasty schools with the bare minimum expertise to gain JAA approval. They would all compete on price and the quality would be minimal.
Also they would teach only generic SOP's. There is a suprising difference between airlines on how to fly even the same model aircraft ( as I am personally discovering at the moment ).
The end result would be a pretty poor one. And that would matter becuase these graduates would next stop be on the line for base training and line training with real live pax. The Line Trainers job is hard enough as it is without having to cope with someone who is low hours, has done a minimal type rating course using different SOPs.
Such graduates would require much more line training and thats more expensive and more hassle for the airline to organise than would be a proper planned type rating course run by an airlines own staff. As happens now mostly.
MCC being self sponsored and cheap and nasty is OK becuase its largely a tick in the box item for most people. Also the difference between a rubbishy MCC course and a rubbishy type rating course is that in an emergency a rubbishy type rating course could well manifest itself in a smoking hole in the ground.
This time will pass.
Recruiting is gathering a good head of steam barring Gulf War 2. Yes it will take a good year or two to start draining the pool of unemployed grads but by this time next year I reckon the good and the lucky will be getting their first jobs again.
Compare and contrast that with my views over the past nearly 12 months...
WWW
There would spring up a number of cheap and nasty schools with the bare minimum expertise to gain JAA approval. They would all compete on price and the quality would be minimal.
Also they would teach only generic SOP's. There is a suprising difference between airlines on how to fly even the same model aircraft ( as I am personally discovering at the moment ).
The end result would be a pretty poor one. And that would matter becuase these graduates would next stop be on the line for base training and line training with real live pax. The Line Trainers job is hard enough as it is without having to cope with someone who is low hours, has done a minimal type rating course using different SOPs.
Such graduates would require much more line training and thats more expensive and more hassle for the airline to organise than would be a proper planned type rating course run by an airlines own staff. As happens now mostly.
MCC being self sponsored and cheap and nasty is OK becuase its largely a tick in the box item for most people. Also the difference between a rubbishy MCC course and a rubbishy type rating course is that in an emergency a rubbishy type rating course could well manifest itself in a smoking hole in the ground.
This time will pass.
Recruiting is gathering a good head of steam barring Gulf War 2. Yes it will take a good year or two to start draining the pool of unemployed grads but by this time next year I reckon the good and the lucky will be getting their first jobs again.
Compare and contrast that with my views over the past nearly 12 months...
WWW
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I am English but learnt to fly in Australia, I saw many of my instructors and friends go onto bigger and better things while I was training.
What I did notice was that although some of them were lucky enough to go onto jets this did not seem the norm.
More often than not most of them went onto either piston twin or turbo prop operations for many years before going into a RHS of a jet.
I am now back in the UK and have been instructing for some 5 years. I would think that although a RHS would be an ideal I would be extremely happy in a turbo-prop flying for one of the many airlines that operate them.
I think I would learn a great deal from turbo prop operations and would welcome the opportunity.
I have had the opportunity to go through the interview process with Ryanair and was not successful. I wish all the others who did get through through the best of luck and believe that one day my day will come.
Would I buy a type rating Though ????
It seems easy to say no right now , but after some 3100 hours of flying light aircraft it does often get tempting to weaken. But with no real offers on the cards the idea of loaning £20,000+ and then having to pay back more at the end of the day with the interest, it sobers you up.
What I did notice was that although some of them were lucky enough to go onto jets this did not seem the norm.
More often than not most of them went onto either piston twin or turbo prop operations for many years before going into a RHS of a jet.
I am now back in the UK and have been instructing for some 5 years. I would think that although a RHS would be an ideal I would be extremely happy in a turbo-prop flying for one of the many airlines that operate them.
I think I would learn a great deal from turbo prop operations and would welcome the opportunity.
I have had the opportunity to go through the interview process with Ryanair and was not successful. I wish all the others who did get through through the best of luck and believe that one day my day will come.
Would I buy a type rating Though ????
It seems easy to say no right now , but after some 3100 hours of flying light aircraft it does often get tempting to weaken. But with no real offers on the cards the idea of loaning £20,000+ and then having to pay back more at the end of the day with the interest, it sobers you up.
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OK all you wannabees, let's see what there is to learn from this thread.
On the one hand we've got the self appointed skygod, confessed protaganist and somewhat confused ("...I suspect it is a brilliantly efficient way..."/"I think we have establised it is a crappy deal" and "As a shareholder.."/"I'm not a shareholder...") WWW.
On the the other we have the likes of Towers and Crashy.
I know where I'd put my money, or not, as recommended by the more lucid of those mentioned in the above paragraph.
WWW you have finally destroyed your own credibility. It's been coming for a while but this thread is the last straw.
What a sham(e).
On the one hand we've got the self appointed skygod, confessed protaganist and somewhat confused ("...I suspect it is a brilliantly efficient way..."/"I think we have establised it is a crappy deal" and "As a shareholder.."/"I'm not a shareholder...") WWW.
On the the other we have the likes of Towers and Crashy.
I know where I'd put my money, or not, as recommended by the more lucid of those mentioned in the above paragraph.
WWW you have finally destroyed your own credibility. It's been coming for a while but this thread is the last straw.
What a sham(e).
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This thread has is not about www's credibility - it's purpose has been to throw up a great read amongst all the other ****e on pprune.
Further I would say it has been entertaining and INFORMATIVE to wannabees all over. Don't forget there will be newbies to the forum who will have learnt a hell of a lot by following just one thread of many.....
WWW has annoyed some through his style of expression, and some others think he has moved on into airline life and forgotten what it was like to be a wannabee. Rubbish...
Well look up what the word 'forum' stands for on webster's or whatever. It takes all sorts, and in this case, I would much prefer to have heard www's contributions alongside scroggs, Towers, and every tom dick and harry.
Its the way informative threads come together.
Go easy folks,
As Jack Nicholson once said "We're all in the same cage"
Cheers,
Laurie
(First person to correctly identify said scene, and film, wins a 737 type rating!!!)
Further I would say it has been entertaining and INFORMATIVE to wannabees all over. Don't forget there will be newbies to the forum who will have learnt a hell of a lot by following just one thread of many.....
WWW has annoyed some through his style of expression, and some others think he has moved on into airline life and forgotten what it was like to be a wannabee. Rubbish...
Well look up what the word 'forum' stands for on webster's or whatever. It takes all sorts, and in this case, I would much prefer to have heard www's contributions alongside scroggs, Towers, and every tom dick and harry.
Its the way informative threads come together.
Go easy folks,
As Jack Nicholson once said "We're all in the same cage"
Cheers,
Laurie
(First person to correctly identify said scene, and film, wins a 737 type rating!!!)