Validating to EASA post BREXIT
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Validating to EASA post BREXIT
A question for those who have not SOLI their licence from UK to any Member State prior Brexit;
- Is there anyone out there who has started converting/validating their licence to EASA?
- What is the process your going through?
So let me get this straight:
A Frenchman could do all his flight training in France, complete his DGAC ATPL exams in France at a DGAC test centre in, let's say, July 2020 (so they'd be valid until July 2023). He could spend autumn 2020 doing a CPL and MEIR at a French school (examined by French examiners obviously).
But simply because he elected to have his licence issued by the UK CAA - the DGAC will now not recognise their own (still valid) exams, or Skills test certificates?
If I were that Frenchman, I would be challenging that in court.
A Frenchman could do all his flight training in France, complete his DGAC ATPL exams in France at a DGAC test centre in, let's say, July 2020 (so they'd be valid until July 2023). He could spend autumn 2020 doing a CPL and MEIR at a French school (examined by French examiners obviously).
But simply because he elected to have his licence issued by the UK CAA - the DGAC will now not recognise their own (still valid) exams, or Skills test certificates?
If I were that Frenchman, I would be challenging that in court.
Last edited by rudestuff; 19th Mar 2021 at 18:27.
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You'd have to be borderline insane to have UK CAA licence issued in 2020, if you had any intention of flying outside of UK & non G-reg aircraft.
Last edited by FlyingStone; 19th Mar 2021 at 22:09.
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rudestuff
Yip Absolutley crazy the exams are all the same ! Only thing is thats how the local aviation authorities make their money from people paying for exams ! Theres no way I would sit both to fulfil an UK and EASA license Just absolute rip off and should be challenged
Yip Absolutley crazy the exams are all the same ! Only thing is thats how the local aviation authorities make their money from people paying for exams ! Theres no way I would sit both to fulfil an UK and EASA license Just absolute rip off and should be challenged
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I might be wrong but I believe the scenario you are portraying is not accurate.
in that case, the French student could get his license without any issue from the French DGAC.
The only thing he would need is an EASA Class 1 from France (or from any EASA member state but then to apply for his license in that country). Licencies will be issued by the country where you had your medical.
I believe a better analogy would be if a student goes to the US an completes all his training there and then goes to the French (or UK) CAA to obtain their licence...
Going back to your example, what happens is that the Uk CAA is the one that decided to move out from EASA and therefore cannot issue an EASA licence anymore. If the French student applies for it from France, he can then go to the UK CAA and convert it. I believe the UK CAA will accept EASA licenses for up to 2 years from Brexit.
A similar case happens now with some gulf countries that replicated EASA regulation and study requirements but are not EASA member states... so to convert a licence from those countries requires the same as if it were done in the US (or any other ICAO licence)
It is just one example of the implications from Brexit. A lose-lose gane for everyone in the European aviation industry, I am afraid
don’t see much to challenge in court... but that is only my humble opinion
in that case, the French student could get his license without any issue from the French DGAC.
The only thing he would need is an EASA Class 1 from France (or from any EASA member state but then to apply for his license in that country). Licencies will be issued by the country where you had your medical.
I believe a better analogy would be if a student goes to the US an completes all his training there and then goes to the French (or UK) CAA to obtain their licence...
Going back to your example, what happens is that the Uk CAA is the one that decided to move out from EASA and therefore cannot issue an EASA licence anymore. If the French student applies for it from France, he can then go to the UK CAA and convert it. I believe the UK CAA will accept EASA licenses for up to 2 years from Brexit.
A similar case happens now with some gulf countries that replicated EASA regulation and study requirements but are not EASA member states... so to convert a licence from those countries requires the same as if it were done in the US (or any other ICAO licence)
It is just one example of the implications from Brexit. A lose-lose gane for everyone in the European aviation industry, I am afraid
don’t see much to challenge in court... but that is only my humble opinion
Going back to your example, what happens is that the Uk CAA is the one that decided to move out from EASA and therefore cannot issue an EASA licence anymore. If the French student applies for it from France, he can then go to the UK CAA and convert it. I believe the UK CAA will accept EASA licenses for up to 2 years from Brexit.
What's perverse is that there are EASA licence holders out there who have never done a single EASA exam yet were handed an EASA licence, and others who have passed all EASA exams who are having their EASA 'credentials' taken away...
Educated Hillbilly
Flybyschool,
Everyone keep misquoting the two year rule. It only applies to EASA licenses issued before 31/12/2020, not to new issue EASA licenes.
The UK CAA would issue a validation that would be valid for up to two years on the G Reg for those that held non UK EASA licences on and before the 31/12/2020.
Alot of ATOs have given poor guidance to students by not understanding this clause.
EASA licences issued after the 01/01/2021 are not recognised by the UK CAA and have to do the exams and flight tests again. The UK CAA will recognise EASA Exams completed before the transistion date for UK FCL issue, so those with EASA exams completed before 31/12/2020 be able to credit them for UK FCL issue.
Everyone keep misquoting the two year rule. It only applies to EASA licenses issued before 31/12/2020, not to new issue EASA licenes.
The UK CAA would issue a validation that would be valid for up to two years on the G Reg for those that held non UK EASA licences on and before the 31/12/2020.
Alot of ATOs have given poor guidance to students by not understanding this clause.
EASA licences issued after the 01/01/2021 are not recognised by the UK CAA and have to do the exams and flight tests again. The UK CAA will recognise EASA Exams completed before the transistion date for UK FCL issue, so those with EASA exams completed before 31/12/2020 be able to credit them for UK FCL issue.
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rude-stuff
Can't believe the exact nationality, however something similar has happened, the pilot, a citizen from an EASA MS, completed all his training in his home country, from ppl, hours, atpl exams, Cpl / IR, and as his medical was issued by his home NAA, his home NAA issued his licence.
He secured a job based in the UK flying for a UK airline pre-brexit, a condition attached to the employment, was that his licence would need to be transferred to the UK and he did a SOLI transfer of his medical records / licence to the UK CAA.
He was recently made redundant, and although he had the right to remain / work in the UK, has decided to return to his own country, however to work in his own country he needs a licence issued by EASA with no easy route to transfer !
Can't believe the exact nationality, however something similar has happened, the pilot, a citizen from an EASA MS, completed all his training in his home country, from ppl, hours, atpl exams, Cpl / IR, and as his medical was issued by his home NAA, his home NAA issued his licence.
He secured a job based in the UK flying for a UK airline pre-brexit, a condition attached to the employment, was that his licence would need to be transferred to the UK and he did a SOLI transfer of his medical records / licence to the UK CAA.
He was recently made redundant, and although he had the right to remain / work in the UK, has decided to return to his own country, however to work in his own country he needs a licence issued by EASA with no easy route to transfer !
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It’s absolutely ridiculous and surely ICAO should intervene if possible. You simply cant have a situation whereby someone has satisfied all criteria as set out by EASA to have that taken away only because the NAA left EASA. Grandfather rights have to apply at the very least!
Not sure that’s a fair conclusion. The CAA were dragging their feet regarding announcing what they would accept post Brexit, pretty much up to the wire! It’s fairly well accepted that the CAA didn’t want to leave EASA. Quite why we’re dragging ourselves out is anyone’s guess, purely politics I suppose.
I do hope common sense prevails, as you say. Hopefully an arrangement can be made to rejoin EASA (or at the very least get a BASA in place), regardless of our standing with the EU.
I do hope common sense prevails, as you say. Hopefully an arrangement can be made to rejoin EASA (or at the very least get a BASA in place), regardless of our standing with the EU.
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Rejoining EASA would require accepting the ECJ as the final arbiter for anything in the aviation sector. That seems impossible for UK internal political reasons. There is no ill will towards the UK, the license acceptance issue is just a logical result of the rules in place, mostly lead developed by the UK when it was a member state. But unlike the UK, the EU actually has written constitutional treaties and law derived from those and of course has to follow them. Common sense can only be applied at the political level where rules are formulated and put into place, everything below that is purely rule based.
I do believe that once the dust has settled there will be a move towards closer integration with the EU, on the back of mounting pressure from industry I suspect. So in the very least there will hopefully be a safety agreement in place which would cross-recognise U.K.-EASA licences.
Goodness knows, I'm detecting no willingness to do this whatsoever.
I've SOLId my UK EASA licence to Ireland, which hasn't been smooth, but has happened. We all know everybody's working to the same (inflated, and in many cases far beyond ICAO minimum) standards, we know that you can't work outside of your own territory without the necessary work permits anyhow - so there is absolutely no value in making it difficult for people to cross-credit licences. It is just authorities both sides of the Channel / Irish Sea being difficult for the sake of being difficult.
I've SOLId my UK EASA licence to Ireland, which hasn't been smooth, but has happened. We all know everybody's working to the same (inflated, and in many cases far beyond ICAO minimum) standards, we know that you can't work outside of your own territory without the necessary work permits anyhow - so there is absolutely no value in making it difficult for people to cross-credit licences. It is just authorities both sides of the Channel / Irish Sea being difficult for the sake of being difficult.
Who knows. I’m sticking to U.K. as it’s the only place I have the right to live and work. If I had an Irish passport I may be swayed otherwise.
Seems Ryanair are only taking EASA licence holders, but apart from those clearly large employers in better times, I don’t really see the benefit of holding an EASA licence in the U.K. unless it’s demanded by a current employer.
Jobs are likely to be scarce for some time, but there will be jobs in GA. If you wish to fly a G-reg aircraft and haven’t been awarded a CPL MEIR before December 2020, then it would only make sense to get a U.K. licence. But that is based on the limited information at hand, any future recognition (or lack of) is purely based on supposition.
Seems Ryanair are only taking EASA licence holders, but apart from those clearly large employers in better times, I don’t really see the benefit of holding an EASA licence in the U.K. unless it’s demanded by a current employer.
Jobs are likely to be scarce for some time, but there will be jobs in GA. If you wish to fly a G-reg aircraft and haven’t been awarded a CPL MEIR before December 2020, then it would only make sense to get a U.K. licence. But that is based on the limited information at hand, any future recognition (or lack of) is purely based on supposition.
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Genghis the Engineer
So basically, for you, who seem to be a British citizen, it was totally useless to SOLI your licence to a MS Authority, in your case IAA. You can't work in the EU Member states unless with necessary work permits.
Moreover, EU citizens owning only a UK issued Part-FCL (pre BREXIT) is also useless. Cannot fly EU MS aircraft with a UK issued licence.
It seems like validation is the only process to go through for those needing to fly MS aircrafts.
Shall an EU citizen with a UK issued Part-FCL license, wait for the 'dust to settle' and hope that a bi lateral agreement is struck between the two parties to cross recognise UK-EASA license. ( while missing the opportunity for a job offer?
Or
Should an EU citizen with a UK issued Part-FCL license, take the plunge and validate (sitting for the 14 ATPL exams + skill tests again = 1 year) the license while working?
So basically, for you, who seem to be a British citizen, it was totally useless to SOLI your licence to a MS Authority, in your case IAA. You can't work in the EU Member states unless with necessary work permits.
Moreover, EU citizens owning only a UK issued Part-FCL (pre BREXIT) is also useless. Cannot fly EU MS aircraft with a UK issued licence.
It seems like validation is the only process to go through for those needing to fly MS aircrafts.
Shall an EU citizen with a UK issued Part-FCL license, wait for the 'dust to settle' and hope that a bi lateral agreement is struck between the two parties to cross recognise UK-EASA license. ( while missing the opportunity for a job offer?
Or
Should an EU citizen with a UK issued Part-FCL license, take the plunge and validate (sitting for the 14 ATPL exams + skill tests again = 1 year) the license while working?
Last edited by likair; 22nd Mar 2021 at 10:32.
Not useless.
I have a US B1/B2 visa, and an FAA CPL/IR. So I can, for certain purposes fly professionally in the USA, or I can fly an N-reg aeroplane professionally in the UK. There aren't actually many people with the combination of professional licences, and a PhD in flight mechanic - so that means I can be useful in certain narrow niches, and I like being useful. [I think that the UK has four people with both a CPL and an aerospace engineering PhD - we all pursue the paths that work for us.]
I've had visas and permits permitting me to work in a whole bunch of countries in my life, and as I do scientific and test flying, there may well be reasons that I am the best person to do that flying. So I've elected to grab an EASA CPL whilst I could easily - enabling possible future tasks, but being fully aware that I may need additional permits. That's my choice, it doesn't stop the UK being both my country of residence and, once things have settled out a bit, my main country for pilot licencing.
Things are perhaps rather different for an airline pilot or flying instructor, that's a rather more common skillset, so getting the work permits may be harder.
My fundamental point however is universal. Given that you need a suitable visa or work permit anyhow - why introduce additional barriers? There is no sense in it.
I have a US B1/B2 visa, and an FAA CPL/IR. So I can, for certain purposes fly professionally in the USA, or I can fly an N-reg aeroplane professionally in the UK. There aren't actually many people with the combination of professional licences, and a PhD in flight mechanic - so that means I can be useful in certain narrow niches, and I like being useful. [I think that the UK has four people with both a CPL and an aerospace engineering PhD - we all pursue the paths that work for us.]
I've had visas and permits permitting me to work in a whole bunch of countries in my life, and as I do scientific and test flying, there may well be reasons that I am the best person to do that flying. So I've elected to grab an EASA CPL whilst I could easily - enabling possible future tasks, but being fully aware that I may need additional permits. That's my choice, it doesn't stop the UK being both my country of residence and, once things have settled out a bit, my main country for pilot licencing.
Things are perhaps rather different for an airline pilot or flying instructor, that's a rather more common skillset, so getting the work permits may be harder.
My fundamental point however is universal. Given that you need a suitable visa or work permit anyhow - why introduce additional barriers? There is no sense in it.