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Future of integrated ATPL courses

Old 30th Nov 2020, 22:08
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Future of integrated ATPL courses

For some time, the cost of an integrated ATPL course has been seen as worthwhile and 'good' investment for many. Now that pilot salaries are vastly reduced for the foreseeable future are we going to see the cost of integrated courses reducing aswell? Once you could buy a license for 100 000 to make 100 000 a year, now you will make 50 000 if you are lucky.
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Old 30th Nov 2020, 22:36
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Old 1st Dec 2020, 11:03
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Odd? Most of my colleagues and compatriots have taken pay reductions to cover the devastation that COVID has caused with agreement that these reductions will diminish as the industry recovers. You obviously know something I don't.

As to training facilities reducing costs I'm afraid that won't be on the radar so to speak. They would claim that an investment of 100,000 for 18 months training for a return of 40+ years of employment even at 50,000 per annum is a good and worthwhile return. Add to that that whilst the ab-intio wages might well be suppressed for a period of time the cost of running a flying training organisation, aircraft, airfield, instructors, fuel, maintenance, training facilities etc. etc. etc. has not. I would be interested to see where you could 'step into' an ab-initio job after an ATPL course without MPL and type rating (not included in your 100,000 generally) earning 100,000 off the bat.

Some training organisations advertise on the razor thin edge of reality sometimes with promises that are dubious to put it politely however they still offer a service at a cost that they deem is fair irrespective of the earnings potential at the end.

It's your choice.

Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 2nd Dec 2020 at 08:51.
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Old 1st Dec 2020, 21:33
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Anyone considering becoming a commercial pilot needs to realise that it is especially unlikely in today’s/future world that you will ever make the 100k back. Just consider inflation alone and the possible lost compounding effect from missed investments. You also need to realise that even if you are earning 100k, you pay a lot of tax, then you’ll have mortgage/rent, pension plan, insurances, food, children etc etc and possible costs of commuting(paying for hotels or a second place); it’ll take many years just to make the base amount back. If you are a single income household, 100k doesn't go too far these days if you aspire to own a decent home and save for retirement, especially if you want to live in somewhere like the south of England. This is real life I'm talking about not the delusional starry eyed teenage dream of a hedonistic career in aviation.

Its also worth mentioning that incomes across the entire workforce have been eroded through inflation over the last 20 years, there is no good pension schemes left out there for new joiners and the cost of living only ever increases. What does the next 20 years hold in store for us?

If you can manage a few years as a skipper in the Middle East, pick up an ex pat contract in China or make it to the top of a seniority list in a flag carrier; then you might get a return from the 100k cost of your licence.

Think very carefully about investing any money into a career in aviation never mind 100k. Only do this job if its your passion and you have the aptitude, otherwise avoid it like the plague!

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Old 2nd Dec 2020, 08:23
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Originally Posted by MaverickPrime View Post
Anyone considering becoming a commercial pilot.......... Only do this job if its your passion and you have the aptitude, otherwise avoid it like the plague!
‘Passion’ & ‘aptitude’ are just two of the essential ingredients necessary for employment once C-19 vaccinations are rolled out & market confidence is showing signs of recovery.

Wannabes need to think very carefully as how they have demonstrated ‘passion’, a burning desire to fly, probably from an early age.
Aptitude is more than passing sophisticated psychometric / IQ, hand to eye coordination tests. Team player certainty with the other CRM skills.
Part of the acid test as well is your progress in the first 20 hours of flying.

Individuals go into this occupation for the wrong reasons. Unless you have the passion and aptitude take the advice offered. Look elsewhere for employment.
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Old 2nd Dec 2020, 11:38
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Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: London
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I think given the current circumstances not that many people would invest into integrated courses. There was a time when integrated courses had it benefits but now given how COVID has decimated the aviation industry, I would think 5 times before investing in integrated course.
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Old 2nd Dec 2020, 15:06
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People didn't choose integrated courses because they would become better-paid than their colleagues from the modular route or anything like that. Also, relatively few had the idea that the training in itself was anyhow "superior" on the integrated route.

The sole reason behind most people's choice was the "guaranteed" first job in the end. That was the unique selling point of those courses, not earning potential and not training superiority. While any job was far from guaranteed even while the sun was shining, right now I simply can't see any reason to give a meaningful guarantee of anything for the next couple of years. Loads of redundant rated and experienced pilots, loads of part-timers and loads of qualified trainees in the pipeline mean that no airline will be making any commitment towards ab-initio trainees until well into this decade. If anyone still believes in the salesmen's promises of walking right into a job after graduation, they should read through the easyJet MPL thread. People who had reached as far as base training got terminated this spring. Then what are the chances of any new entrants making the list before all the aforementioned categories have been offered employment?

Since the "guaranteed job" mantra no longer stands up to any reasonableness check, I foresee a significant drop in demand for integrated training. With all the implications this might have for its providers.
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 13:31
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go modular
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 16:33
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Richard Burtonville, South Wales.
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No, go plumbing*. Spending a ton of money on a useless piece of paper is bonkers. The balance is the simple cost- benefit one. At the moment there is NO benefit in holding a perishable licence. Save your money, fly for fun (call it hour-building) and wait. If you're near the age limit, don't waste 120k. When it picks up, assess the cost-benefit again. If rich, ignore this and go round twice!

*spend 6 months on that, rake in some dosh.
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