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Old 21st Oct 2020, 12:19
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: EU
Posts: 49
Originally Posted by guy_incognito View Post
The vast majority of FOs would work for free to "stay current" while finding another job (or two or three) on the side to pay the bills. New normal.
It's not a fairground ride. That practice may well be taken up by some but it will not last. When the bills need to be paid or the car needs a tank of gas or food needs putting on the table the roosters will come home to roost. Working for free should absolutely not be allowed under any circumstances. You don't have free rent, you dont get free gas, you dont get free food. Your baggage handlers get paid, your gate staff get paid, your cabin crew get paid, your ops team get paid, your bus driver gets paid, your customer has paid. Why on earth should you not get paid!? It's basic economics people.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 12:29
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: FLSomething
Posts: 163
Bealzebub

Not going to happen.

The hour rule is in the states because the unions love it since it forces up Ts&Cs.

It’s totally arbitrary and bears no relation to your actual abilities. The CAA, as incompetent as they can be, are unlikely to randomly bring in a regulation for the sole purpose of making it harder to get a job as a pilot.

It’s also likely illegal as it discriminates based on age. When the last advert you saw that said ‘X years experience required’? Likely a while ago as that practice is now banned.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 15:49
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 688
Field Required

Exactly. Working as a pilot for free is not sustainable for any longer than your savings last. I wonder if anyone of those who would be up for it has considered what's it like to work a couple of days of earlies with 12 hours between them (or even 10 hours if out of base). When are you going to sleep if you also need to work a second job? Not to mention that in this industry only the lucky few get to be based in their home cities and a huge fraction need to commute between cities and even countries (and that's not cheap either unless there's an airline paying for your tickets or a good contractual rate if you're paying for it yourself). So, anyone considering it seriously will likely fail the psychological assessment on grounds of not being able to provide a realistic evaluation of his/her own physiological capabilities, especially in the part concerning the need for sleep.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 17:24
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: EU
Posts: 49
Originally Posted by PilotLZ View Post
I wonder if anyone of those who would be up for it has considered what's it like to work a couple of days of earlies with 12 hours between them
No they haven't. The wannabes know nothing of the reality of line flying until it's too late.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 17:34
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever I lay my hat
Posts: 3,186
Originally Posted by VariablePitchP View Post
It’s also likely illegal as it discriminates based on age. When the last advert you saw that said ‘X years experience required’? Likely a while ago as that practice is now banned.
Don't confuse age with experience. Discrimination is not a dirty word it is absolutely necessary. If I applied for a position as head of surgery I'd fully expect to be discriminated against on the basis that I've never been to medical school. You have to draw a line somewhere, despite what the snowflakes want.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 22:10
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 688
Agreed. If you think that setting a minimum amount of experience for a role is discriminatory, wait until you see the entry requirements for most of what we all know as major legacy carriers. Basically, they are usually set up to keep non-nationals away. Fluency in the respective national language, security disclosure which can only be obtained by a citizen or long-term resident of the country and all the likes. All of that leaves you as a pilot with four potential career paths (or a combination thereof):

1 - look for opportunities in your home country
2 - join a multinational company with bases in multiple countries (think Ryanair, Wizz air and all the likes)
3 - look into traditionally expat jobs (think the Middle East and Asia, that's where most of those opportunities are)
4 - become a contractor, plugging up a hole here and another one there, usually short-term (often encountered in corporate aviation, less so in airlines)

Numbers 3 and 4 are only available to experienced pilots. That's the reality of life. You may like it or not, but that's how it is. Not being born, bread and butter in France, you're unlikely to ever get a flight deck job with Air France, let alone a place on their sponsored programme, if and when there is one. The same applies for just about any European flag carrier. Airlines of that calibre never have a shortage of top-notch applicants from their nations, so why would they need expats?
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 05:36
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,314
Variablepitchp

The “1500 hour rule” or more accurately the requirement to hold an ATR (ATPL) actually came into law as result of the AIRLINE SAFETY AND FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION EXTENSION ACT OF 2010 and the Colgan 3407 accident. Arguably, since in that accident neither pilot had less than 1500 hours in any event. Age discrimination isn’t an issue beyond the age requirement to hold the licence, which in itself doesn’t discriminate.

The clue is in the name. Airline Transport Pilots licence. To fly in that capacity, it is not unreasonable to hold that licence.

When the last advert you saw that said ‘X years experience required’? Likely a while ago as that practice is now banned.

I don’t think I ever did since age wasn’t the requirement. Now substitute the unit of measure from “years” to “hours” and I think a great many did and still do.
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 11:53
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Borders
Posts: 28
Field Required

We are talking about a highly desirable (for some reason) and highly vocational job with no serious barriers to entry, other than the obvious financial ones. There is a vast oversupply at the bottom of the market, and there will be for some time. As an airline bean counter, how could you justify to the board and to your shareholders that you are willing to pay a decent wage to employees who would be prepared to work for free or even pay the airline for the privilege of being allowed to come into work?

I stand by what I've previously stated: sub-£50k for a captain will be the new standard, and minimum wage at best will be the new standard for FOs. I know for a fact that there are already plenty of cases of cadets working second and third jobs on their days off (and even before or after an FDP) to make ends meet. It's highly likely that we will see an extension of that. Unless and until there's a serious incident where such fatiguing practices are held to be a causal factor, nothing will change. Even then I wouldn’t be holding my breath: the company in that case would simply point to the Part A where it states that a pilot must not operate if he knows or suspects he’d be fatigued.
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 12:47
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: N/A
Posts: 13
I suppose you could say that would be an airline CEO’s wet dream. Not going to happen though. Once this ‘storm in a teacup’ blows over, which it will and much sooner than you predict, the supply of pilots will soon dry up and we’ll be back on the road of abinitio recruitment again. Keep the faith!
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 13:13
  #50 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,397
Apart from those unfortunate pilots who lost their jobs, there are trainees sufficiently deep into their training who will be issued with a CPL/IR in the next 12 months, with absolutely no prospect of the RHS in the foreseeable future.
Many wannabes would have considered starting this year had C-19 not caused the implosion.
Possibly 25% (?) will no longer consider aviation as an occupation and do something else.
The 75% left will be standing by to start so that they achieve licence issue & MCC/APS on the crest of the employment wave. Add to that the nominal wannabes with expected start dates 2021/22/23.

The SUPPLY & DEMAND curves will determine what the employer will pay. Simple Economics.
Historically they often got out of ‘synch’ as boom and bust occurred. 8-10 years from now a pilot shortage will occur. Ideal for those at the start of secondary school just now.

Spending even for a ‘value for money’ Modular course requires a return on investment greater than the minimum wage as has been suggested, even for those who funded their training without incurring debt.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 00:05
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: FLSomething
Posts: 163
rudestuff

Please read what I posted.

But in your hypothetical job applying For the head of surgery I suspect if they wanted 20 years experience and you only had 18 years because you happen to have been born a few years later you might be quite frustrated when in reality you are just as qualified as everyone else. Just because a boomer is older it most certainly does not make them better.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 12:47
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: ELLX
Posts: 1
Talking Why not pursue your dream

I can definitely understand the terrible situation within aviation industry, but as an aviation enthusiast myself (who has PPL/IR and currently working on EASA ATPL theory and planning to do CPL + ME next year), to the original poster, I would still say if it is really your dream, why not go and give it a try!

The important thing is to have a plan B. Personally, being a pilot is always my dream, unfortunately due to various of reasons, I could not pursue aviation in my teenage years, instead I become a software engineer. Once I got a stable job after my graduation, I started pilot training, earned my PPL in 2015, my CB/IR in 2018 and currently learning ATPL theory (already passed a few subjects; and planning to finish all 14 subjects early next year) for CPL (which only requires 15H as I have IR) and ME next summer. My reasoning is that I currently spend around 20K euros to fly around for pleasure anyway, why not spend it on the training.

My age has just turned 30, the time for me to pursue my dream is already limited. If I am lucky, maybe one day in my life I can become a FO of an airline (I am okay to give up my job, sell my house and everything as I know with junior FO salary I would no longer be able to afford these) but enjoying flying, or find some part-time GA work or becoming a part-time flight school / club instructor. Anything aviation makes me excited and if it can earn money, that's even better.

If not, my plan B is working harder. I am saving some money and planning to buy a small second-hand IFR tourer (hopefully with TKS & EFIS). And with CPL I might be able to get better insurance quote, my efforts in hard ATPLT/CPL studies will not be wasted.

So, to the original poster, I think the most important thing in the economy down turn is secure your income first, and pursue your dream. Many people already in the industry maybe are not as enthusiastic as we are, but if it is your dream, the return of your aviation "investment" does not have to be money, it can be the sheer pleasure and joy. It's never too late to start, and it does not matter when the aviation industry will recover, it does not matter what other people say. It's not about money, it's about living a life with minimal regrets (as mentioned by Jeff Bezos).
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 11:54
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: London
Posts: 97
Well said, know the risks and follow the gut!
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Old 24th Oct 2020, 12:45
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 567
Can't imagine why anybody would want to start flight training right now unless just for a PPL to fun fly. The airlines won't be interested in newbies for at least several years IF it ever picks up again to pre covid levels.
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Old 8th Nov 2020, 23:35
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: UK
Posts: 1
If I was you I wouldn't even put a single penny into any flight school right now due to the current state of the airline industry (try in 5years). Have you considered joining the RAF? There are many job roles available that are flight related such as pilot, flight operater, air controller and more. This will be good on your CV when applying for a pilot role plus you could save up for your flight training. In the meantime just wait and find some valuable work experience.

Do not I repeat DO NOT be misled by the big flight schools into spending £100k. Don't be a fool
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