L3 Harris, the final shafting
The MPL was a con trick to save money and cut corners and put a body into the rhs with the bare minimum of training. Not the fault of the cadets themselves. However, an arrangement between unscrupulous ATOs, compliant regulators and although not blameless but naive airlines. I feel very sorry for the cadets involved. Massive bills and no jobs.
de minimus non curat lex
de minimus non curat lex
.....that could fetch $1 billion. No final decision made, and they may opt to keep the unit according to people familiar with the matter.......
Private Equity Firms are those apparently interested......make a quick buck and then sell on?
Private Equity Firms are those apparently interested......make a quick buck and then sell on?
I think it would be very unwise to invest in an integrated atpl right now. For L3 and their misguided mpl ‘scheme’ it would be a form of karma.
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It is beyond doubt that L3 has not generally served its customers or the industry well - it has caused huge harm. But some of the criticism on this thread relating to the MPL and their handling of it is not well founded. The MPL was not designed by L3, it was designed by airline personnel, one in particular, approved by the CAA, and is only offered under the auspices of a sponsoring airline. L3 and the several other players (big and small) who offer training for this qualification only do so when an airline requests it and 'sponsors' it. If people don't like it (and I understand some of the arguments why people might not), you should direct your criticism at the airlines and the regulator.
Regards L3's handling of its own MPL cadets, other people have asked the question on this thread, and nobody has satisfactorily answered it: what else should they have done? The people who contracted these cadets, and then left them high and dry, are not L3 employees...
Regards L3's handling of its own MPL cadets, other people have asked the question on this thread, and nobody has satisfactorily answered it: what else should they have done? The people who contracted these cadets, and then left them high and dry, are not L3 employees...
You make some valid points JJ. I think the ethical route would be to do a deal with the regulator and convert all mpls into atpl with no extra cost to the individual. I realise that is a romantic vision of a hard corporate business model and could be construed as naive. However, the cadets with I agree the cooperation of the regulator and certain airlines have been royally shafted.
cheers
cheers
de minimus non curat lex
I believe FTE offered their Flybe MPL students a ‘conversion’ to fATPL at favourable rates.
As has been pointed out these students were selected by the airline; in this case Flybe.The financial risk was with the student during the Jerez phase. The Exeter type rating & base training were funded by Flybe with I presume a ‘bonding scheme’.
The difference was that Flybe ceased trading on 5 March with C-19 impacting on passenger numbers.
EZY simply dumped their trainees***
Incidentally NATS also dumped their 128 (?) trainees as well. Now that was shortsighted.
***EDIT: Good news if CAT3C information is correct that EZY will complete the MPL training for licence issue.
As has been pointed out these students were selected by the airline; in this case Flybe.The financial risk was with the student during the Jerez phase. The Exeter type rating & base training were funded by Flybe with I presume a ‘bonding scheme’.
The difference was that Flybe ceased trading on 5 March with C-19 impacting on passenger numbers.
EZY simply dumped their trainees***
Incidentally NATS also dumped their 128 (?) trainees as well. Now that was shortsighted.
***EDIT: Good news if CAT3C information is correct that EZY will complete the MPL training for licence issue.
Last edited by parkfell; 23rd Nov 2020 at 21:22. Reason: ***EDIT
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Are people aware that the current MPL EJ cadets in their, intermediate and advanced training are going to finish the course and EJ have agreed to do their base training?
This has been the result of a number of individuals at L3H working hard negotiating with the CAA and EJ to resolve the issues to which they have been successful.
This has been the result of a number of individuals at L3H working hard negotiating with the CAA and EJ to resolve the issues to which they have been successful.
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Ladies & Gentleman,
I had the pleasure of working with some on these cadets last year in the first part of their SIM phase and saw some of them last week, back to finish their intermediate SIM phase with the advanced phase imminent.
I found the comments made about flying ability with MPL cadets interesting. I have had first hand experience of MCC/JOC and MPL cadets and seen various levels of ability in both areas and generally I must admit I have been very impressed with some of these MPL guys & gals and their ability to fly the aircraft manually. In the MPL basic SIM phase the cadets as a 3 crew variation do 64 hours in the SIM with no AP/ATHR or FD which is concluded with a competency check, very similar to an IR skill test. I think around 98% of the cadets (at their peak) I have seen have flown the aircraft far better than any line pilot I have ever seen in my Airbus line flying career! The feedback I have had from my friends who work in the training department at EZY has been very positive.
I was very pleased to see these cadets back and continuing with their training, and I know they are very grateful for what some of the instructors at L3H and EJ have done for them. Of course the next challenge will be to secure a position. I guess we can only hope that now, not only for MPL, but for all our less experienced colleagues in the flying world, that with the positive news of a vaccine for C-19, that the industry bounces back a lot quicker then expected. I am optimistic for the future.
I wish all our up and coming pilots all the best in the coming months.
I had the pleasure of working with some on these cadets last year in the first part of their SIM phase and saw some of them last week, back to finish their intermediate SIM phase with the advanced phase imminent.
I found the comments made about flying ability with MPL cadets interesting. I have had first hand experience of MCC/JOC and MPL cadets and seen various levels of ability in both areas and generally I must admit I have been very impressed with some of these MPL guys & gals and their ability to fly the aircraft manually. In the MPL basic SIM phase the cadets as a 3 crew variation do 64 hours in the SIM with no AP/ATHR or FD which is concluded with a competency check, very similar to an IR skill test. I think around 98% of the cadets (at their peak) I have seen have flown the aircraft far better than any line pilot I have ever seen in my Airbus line flying career! The feedback I have had from my friends who work in the training department at EZY has been very positive.
I was very pleased to see these cadets back and continuing with their training, and I know they are very grateful for what some of the instructors at L3H and EJ have done for them. Of course the next challenge will be to secure a position. I guess we can only hope that now, not only for MPL, but for all our less experienced colleagues in the flying world, that with the positive news of a vaccine for C-19, that the industry bounces back a lot quicker then expected. I am optimistic for the future.
I wish all our up and coming pilots all the best in the coming months.
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ezydriver
I've flown with the same guys as you have. If you gave me two cadets one day after another one of whom came through the traditional CPL/IR route and the other through the MPL, and nobody told me which was which, I doubt I'd be able to tell. You either accept the premise that it's safe to put cadets (of any background) in the RHS or you don't: that's up to you. The statistics simply don't support your argument that it is inherently dangerous though.
I've flown with the same guys as you have. If you gave me two cadets one day after another one of whom came through the traditional CPL/IR route and the other through the MPL, and nobody told me which was which, I doubt I'd be able to tell. You either accept the premise that it's safe to put cadets (of any background) in the RHS or you don't: that's up to you. The statistics simply don't support your argument that it is inherently dangerous though.
How is business for L3? Have they still got any client airlines? Or Just self finance. Friend was believe it or not considering taking the plunge on an integrated course. My advice is wait or go modular. Is the product and training that much better there?
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Olster - Modular is certainly the way forward. Ability to decide on the pace of your training and the flexibility of working around it can be invaluable especially in these times. If he is looking to start is training, my advice to them would be to start the ATPL theory with books to get a better understanding of the subjects, will save him a lot of time later when the clock is against him.
In terms of L3Harris I can't say I ever went. I did apply for the easyJet MPL 4 or 5 year back when it was still CTC. And I must admit at the time I liked them as it felt pretty slick, even if you did have to pay through the nose to get on the course or even to interview. Looking back I was probably lucky to never go.
I have met a few people who went there. Very few outside of their media lot, don't seem to have much positive to say about their time. Issues with the costs, staff, aircraft access and the like when in New Zealand. Or those who went to the US had issues with aircraft reliability in the heat. Often seemed to have gone tech, apparently one had an engine failure on their solo early on.. but I can't prove that so it's just hearsay.
Although I am aware of the Virgin lot, a few of them ended up at easy to basically hour build. Then COVID happened just as they moved to VS, not sure they're employed now.
What I do know is some who were able to get out went on the FTE and comparatively sung it's praises.
It's a shame, L3 bought it thinking it was a cash cow, grew the costs, took money out the school, problems happen and end up turning it into a lame duck they're now trying to sell. The letter just goes to show much the brand has fallen publicly.
In terms of L3Harris I can't say I ever went. I did apply for the easyJet MPL 4 or 5 year back when it was still CTC. And I must admit at the time I liked them as it felt pretty slick, even if you did have to pay through the nose to get on the course or even to interview. Looking back I was probably lucky to never go.
I have met a few people who went there. Very few outside of their media lot, don't seem to have much positive to say about their time. Issues with the costs, staff, aircraft access and the like when in New Zealand. Or those who went to the US had issues with aircraft reliability in the heat. Often seemed to have gone tech, apparently one had an engine failure on their solo early on.. but I can't prove that so it's just hearsay.
Although I am aware of the Virgin lot, a few of them ended up at easy to basically hour build. Then COVID happened just as they moved to VS, not sure they're employed now.
What I do know is some who were able to get out went on the FTE and comparatively sung it's praises.
It's a shame, L3 bought it thinking it was a cash cow, grew the costs, took money out the school, problems happen and end up turning it into a lame duck they're now trying to sell. The letter just goes to show much the brand has fallen publicly.
Many thanks for that info SFF. Modular and taking your time is obviously the way to go. Even modular @ L3 is too expensive.
Cheers
Cheers