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Becoming a pilot After COVID-19

Old 11th Apr 2020, 11:13
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
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Originally Posted by CaptainCriticalAngle View Post
I received an email two days ago from L3 saying that they were now conducting assessments online and are still encouraging people to apply. Apparently they are also giving ATPL theory lessons online, which is good for the students I guess.

I'm a modular fan myself and have never bought into these expensive pilot factories. I'm just slightly perturbed by the nature of the email; they are still pushing people to apply. I guess if you started now, in 18 months the outlook could be better, but what a gamble.

For what it's worth, here's my tuppence for any wannabe pilots reading this - avoid MPLs, avoid the factories. Big is not always safe. Small schools are great and you won't be just a number. Modular produces better all-round pilots. Any training captain worth his salt (and it's normally a he) will know that.
Understatement. But you know it's all shiny...
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 12:25
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Go modular. Start now if you have a place nearby where they do training at this moment, otherwise wait but you can start studying. Good Oxford Aviation Academy's CBTs are available on YouTube for both PPL and ATPL level and Phil Croucher's books (paco on here) for both PPL and ATPL are great. A good read.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 22:34
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Al Jazeera reporting UK new epicentre...be awhile yet afore the UK slides back into normality...then BREXIT...
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Old 12th Apr 2020, 09:08
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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I don't subscribe to the doom laden scenarios peddled by some whereby there are no new jobs for 10 years. However, now is categorically NOT the moment to start flight training, modular or otherwise. Despite whatever some flying schools may try to tell you.

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Old 12th Apr 2020, 13:26
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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I did all of training at small schools/clubs up until the CPL course. The rest was at a big ATO and I regret going to them.
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Old 12th Apr 2020, 14:07
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
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Agree with virtually everything mentioned already, now is not the time to start training. It's the time to start looking at training providers, what you realistically can afford and where you realistically see yourself in the next 5-10 years with and without a pilots licence.
Integrated is a bad move, MPL even worse. If you are determined to start this year, as everyone has said, go modular. Take your time and don't plan on being finished until around 2025 at the earliest as I can't see any airlines hiring newbies within that time frame.
Remember if you finish earlier you're going to have to keep your licences and medical current anyway which is at least £1,000+ every year. Also remember once you've done your ATPLs, you've got 36 months to get everything else finished, so plan ahead and plan to be finished when you start to see positive changes in the industry. This is the beauty of the modular route, you can change your rate of training to match what's happening in the industry. And if you need to completely stop for a year or two, you can.
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Old 12th Apr 2020, 16:56
  #47 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
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Originally Posted by TryingToAvoidCBs View Post
..........If you are determined to start this year, as everyone has said, go modular. Take your time and don't plan on being finished until around 2025 at the earliest as I can't see any airlines hiring newbies within that time frame...........
Whilst it is quite correct that it will take a while, even considerable time, before ‘normal service is resumed’, no one knows just yet when that will be.
A clearer picture will emerge later this year, if not in months.

Do not despair.

If everyone took the advice above, then there would be no ATOs left when the upturn comes?
So deals will be available. Get your negotiating skills finely tuned. But be careful.
Avoid any payments up front for large discounts.

Carry out DUE DILIGENCE.

Fortunately the potential junior birdmen have sufficient grey manner to weigh up what is what.
They will decide the best time to commence, be it Modular or Integrated.

Provided your Class One Medical is renewed within 5 years of expiry, your AME (Class one) can renew it.
Ratings again: there are rules regarding those which have expired and need to be renewed. Look them up for the latest regulations.

I know that these are unbelievable times.
Far worse than the aftermath of 9/11.
Above all keep the faith.
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Old 12th Apr 2020, 18:45
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
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Originally Posted by CaptainCriticalAngle View Post
Hello tsvpilot,

Right then, where do I start. Well, it's certainly been a long time since anyone called me ignorant, but look, I accept that this is not a scientific argument and neither side can actually win. But I'm sticking to my opinion that modular studies produces more well-rounded pilots. I could probably write a book about it but this isn't the place for a 20,000-word analysis.

I have been to most of the big integrated school, on more than one occasion. I know people who have been through the system and they tell me they felt like a number and not a student. I know people who have forked out £110,000 to study at a big school in Spain and are currently completing their ATPL theory studies online in London. They have mixed feelings about the system. Certainly, FI/student ratio is an issue, among others.

And I reiterate that I would never recommend anyone do an MPL. Well before the commercial aviation sector recovers to the level where they're taking on cadets in large numbers, there will be jobs to apply for in other sectors (just look at the NPAS website). An MPL will be useless here unless you spend another small fortune in training.

And I really do believe smaller schools have a more extended family-like atmosphere and that suits some people better. You can do an 'integrated modular' of course and you still have the flexibility to take a break and it's significantly cheaper because smaller schools don't have massive marketing overheads.

Lastly, and most crucially, where did I state that men are better pilots than women? My guess is that English is not your first language and that something has been lost in translation. I could have written 'every training captain worth his/her salt'. And anyway, the fact remains that most training captains are men, although I am sure this will change with time.

Happy Landings!
You can’t say modular makes ‘better pilots’, everyone passes the same CPL/IR tests, someone who spends five years doing the training will be fat rustier than a fresh integrated student.

Yes, L3 will treat you the same way they’d treat someone that had just poured a tonne of raw sewage into their head office. But that doesn’t mean their instructors are any less capable; they just happen to have got a job there.

I do agree with your point about the family atmosphere, FTE will never feel like a flying school and that is something I would have loved to have had that during my training.

Making the decision to go modular does not make you divinely gifted or morally superior, it’s just another way of training. It’s what I’d do at the moment, but that’s just because of the circumstances, not because it’s inherently better.
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Old 12th Apr 2020, 23:48
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Originally Posted by VariablePitchP View Post
You can’t say modular makes ‘better pilots’, everyone passes the same CPL/IR tests, someone who spends five years doing the training will be fat rustier than a fresh integrated student.

Yes, L3 will treat you the same way they’d treat someone that had just poured a tonne of raw sewage into their head office. But that doesn’t mean their instructors are any less capable; they just happen to have got a job there.

I do agree with your point about the family atmosphere, FTE will never feel like a flying school and that is something I would have loved to have had that during my training.

Making the decision to go modular does not make you divinely gifted or morally superior, it’s just another way of training. It’s what I’d do at the moment, but that’s just because of the circumstances, not because it’s inherently better.
I'm not sure. I have seen some people who quite simply cannot fly, I have done assessments with them. I have no idea how they have a license, they were modular students ... yet they should not hold a license. Obviously some examiner somewhere thought otherwise and it really isn't my call, but to say I wouldn't like my family to ever be on board on aircraft with them is an understatement to say the very least.

The situational awareness of a blind chicken hopping about the farmyard coupled with the hand eye coordination of a 2 legged cat on steroids. It truly is astonishing what a simple sim session can reveal.

Unable to hold an altitude, not knowing how to use a VOR, not knowing how to intercept a radial, setting heading on course and vice versa, not knowing how to hold (forget how to join one), unable to fly towards intercepting a localiser and certainly unable to fly a stable ILS approach.

So one cannot simply say modular = good and integrated = bad, I am sure both systems have produced good and bad people.

What you perhaps could say is that those who went modular generally speaking (I emphasise generally speaking) are more mature and appreciative of the whole experience than someone who walked out of school straight into integrated flight school funded by their parents?

Ability wise though, it's totally unfounded that any training method delivers better pilots. Natural, raw ability is born in the person, it is not and cannot be taught by any training programme, regardless of the type.
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Old 13th Apr 2020, 04:09
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
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Originally Posted by CaptainCriticalAngle View Post
Hello tsvpilot,
Hi. You were right by saying bigger is not always better, but then to state that small schools are great (because you know a lot of people with bad experiences with big schools??) is a mere assumption. A well-run school is good regardless of its size and vice versa. The same applies to airlines, small airlines are not somehow better than bigger ones are they? And yet you are a number to most of them because after all, it's a business, but you can still expect a professional service as a customer. Often times the only difference is that a small company just has fewer planes & staff, but they can still have the same ratio of students as the bigger ones do. Small companies do not have a better organizational structure or better staff by default, this is entirely dependent on the competency and mindset of the management. The greater number of bad reviews towards bigger companies is of course because they train multiple times more students than smaller ones do. A size simply has nothing to do with how good/bad the school might be.

Then to claim that modular pilots are considered to be better pilots by the industry is just nonsense. There's nothing to base this upon other than your assumption/opinion. The training is essentially the same, same syllabus, same hours, same exams. The only variables are on the individual level and the flight training quality which are independent of the paths.


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Old 13th Apr 2020, 06:59
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
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Originally Posted by VariablePitchP View Post
You can’t say modular makes ‘better pilots’, everyone passes the same CPL/IR tests, someone who spends five years doing the training will be fat rustier than a fresh integrated student.

Yes, L3 will treat you the same way they’d treat someone that had just poured a tonne of raw sewage into their head office. But that doesn’t mean their instructors are any less capable; they just happen to have got a job there.

I do agree with your point about the family atmosphere, FTE will never feel like a flying school and that is something I would have loved to have had that during my training.

Making the decision to go modular does not make you divinely gifted or morally superior, it’s just another way of training. It’s what I’d do at the moment, but that’s just because of the circumstances, not because it’s inherently better.
Sorry if that's a but out of topic but what about the fact you take the CPL or IRME exam with the same guys that train you in your ATO?

I mean, does conflict of interest resonate in anyone's mind? I've always found that very questionable, especially if there's any intention to squeeze you out of a few more dollars...
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Old 13th Apr 2020, 07:51
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
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CaptainCriticalAngle
Small schools are great and you won't be just a number. Modular produces better all-round pilots. Any training captain worth his salt (and it's normally a he) will know that.
BS. I fly (well used too until this pandemic) with both modular and integrated cadets, you can NOT tell the difference. Admittedly you get the odd cocky bar steward who’s been to Uni then an integrated school. I will say that the modular people display more gumption rather than arrogance, the operating ability is generally the same. You are going to screw up regardless of where you have trained, it’s whether or not you can take the friendly advice and learn from your mistakes. You are always going to get some action man who knows better though.

I'm not sure. I have seen some people who quite simply cannot fly, I have done assessments with them. I have no idea how they have a license, they were modular students ... yet they should not hold a license. Obviously some examiner somewhere thought otherwise and it really isn't my call, but to say I wouldn't like my family to ever be on board on aircraft with them is an understatement to say the very least.
Don’t kid yourself, they aren’t all ‘modular’ students, see above. In a bygone era (ended a few months ago) the sausage factories pumped out these junior jet pilots to the various airline training depts, who then process them and lump them on the line captains. You’ve got the licence and rating, passed the line check, you only learn for real once on the line. That takes time regardless of an integrated or modular background. Passing the exams vs passion for aviation?

On to topic now; what’s more to say? Don’t blow your resources, be smart, the wind has changed for sure. Integrated ‘may now’ be the only way in for a new CPL just out of nappies. Supply and demand = the bar being raised.





Last edited by shaun ryder; 13th Apr 2020 at 08:01.
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Old 13th Apr 2020, 09:00
  #53 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
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Originally Posted by A320LGW View Post

..........Unable to hold an altitude, not knowing how to use a VOR, not knowing how to intercept a radial, setting heading on course and vice versa, not knowing how to hold (forget how to join one), unable to fly towards intercepting a localiser and certainly unable to fly a stable ILS approach.

So one cannot simply say modular = good and integrated = bad, I am sure both systems have produced good and bad people..........

........ Natural, raw ability is born in the person, it is not and cannot be taught by any training programme.......
A320LGW is making some interesting and valid points.

Unless the ATOs Standards Departments ensure that new FIs are competent before being released to instruct, there are going to be issues. They set the ‘standard’ and also act as the QUALITY DEPARTMENT.

Carrying out a Progress Test can be very revealing as to the way the students are taught, and the quality of instruction.
Having multiple instructors in any phase of training is not recommended. Continuity is very important especially for the weaker brethren.

The fundamental skill which must be taught early in the training is accurate TRIMMING for the various visual attitudes and becomes a critical skill to fly a stabilised ILS approach.

The best way to teach students in the applied IF phase is to practice the route/approaches in the simulator the day before flying it the following day. The more routes and airports used during training the better.
A far greater awareness and airmanship develops.
Simply flying routes A & B prior to IR test does not develop the necessary skills, and results in the comments made by A320.

There is also high degree of correlation between learning curve demonstrated in IR training phase for CPL/IR issue and that seen during the MCC/JOC/APS course.
The experienced IR instructor will predict with a high degree of certainty whether the student is the “right stuff”.

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Old 14th Apr 2020, 02:05
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
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Ironically PPRuNe is probably about the worst place to get advice about a career in commercial aviation right now, simply because most posters will be posting through emotion rather than rationality - they would lack humanity if they were not, because many on here are deeply attached to flying and will be in bits at what is happening right now...especially those whose mortgage currently depends on it, and my heart goes out to them.

There is far too much speculation as to what the future holds, especially as we are probably months away (2021) before any sort of normality returns to global commercial aviation and people are only guessing at the likely outcomes before we get going again, let alone afterwards. But I think it is inevitable that economics will not be the only factor in play. Globally the world will prepare for the next Covid or some such, so going forwards there is going to be some form of stringent medical border control, where currently there is very little (usually none). This will inevitably make international borders less porous than they were/are and significantly add to the costs of international travel.

It is also inevitable that business travel (not just air travel, all of it) will hugely reduce. This was happening anyway; Covid 19, has jammed the foot down on the gas pedal and then some. This is not speculation it is commercial business reality and it will spread to all sectors.

And before any of this was happening , there was an embryonic youth demographic emerging against the enviromental consequences of flying...that's not gone away, and that's tomorrows passengers we are talking about. As my boss puts it...flying is just not cool anymore.

I have no idea what commercial aviation will look like post Covid 19 and I doubt many people do. But I'm comfortably certain of two things:

1. We are not going back to what we had before.
2. Comparisons with previous events, not matter how dramatic, offer very few clues as to how this one will turn out.

My advice to prospective students wanting to enter the industry. Unless you or your parents have money to burn, now is not the time. And it fills me with sadness to say that, but anything else is hardly rational.
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Old 17th Apr 2020, 09:49
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Richard Dangle View Post
It is also inevitable that business travel (not just air travel, all of it) will hugely reduce.
They said similar in the wake of the 2008 recession; business travel wouldn’t recover and more people would holiday from home.

All of these managers and executives love an excuse for a cheeky ‘business’ trip, as soon as they can fly again they will.

As for the masses as soon as they can afford to and think it’s safe enough, they’ll be back in Benidorm and Tenerife.

I hear your sentiments about flying not being cool anymore, but I just don’t think this matters to the silent majority.

I’d be more worried about how this virus will accelerate the devaluation of money and increase the rate of inflation world wide which is what is making us all poorer.
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Old 17th Apr 2020, 11:10
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
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^^

I'm not here to enter an debate about the future of flying, because none of us know it. All of your points are valid, but also debateable. As are mine.

I'm just here to give an honest, rational point of view (and its just one of many) to anybody thinking of spending money on flying training right now.

And my view is...wait until this over (completely over, ie a vaccine is operational). Then take stock and proceed with caution. Have a credible plan B.

And done. Stay safe all.

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Old 19th Apr 2020, 13:04
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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And what If there isn’t a vaccine forthcoming? Like for all the other coronavirsues out there, like the cold? The whole world is throwing money at it, with the best scientists and big pharmaceutical companies and universities...and yet no one is even close right now because of the very nature of how corona viruses mutate.
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Old 19th Apr 2020, 14:18
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Is there ever a good time to start training? Probably when others aren't. Sure, you could wait until the industry has recovered but then you'll be in the same position as everyone else. Or you could go for it now and spend a fortune keeping current only to be passed over because you qualified too long ago.
If someone has the money and the dream, then my advice would be to go for it 80%. By that I mean get a PPL, do some hour building, take the ATPL exams, get an IRR, CBIR and CPL - but do it all single engine.

​​​​Then stop.

You've just spent £30k to get within a month of the finish line, with all hoops jumped through. No need to worry about ATPLs expiring (for at least 7 years!) Nothing to keep current - just let everything lapse until you're ready for the last step - because you've only got 10 hours of MEP training and an MCC/JOC course left to do. When the time is right, you're a fATPL with a one month lead time. And when you write your CV the important bits (The MEIR and MCC/JOC) will be brand new.
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Old 19th Apr 2020, 17:23
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rudestuff View Post
Is there ever a good time to start training? Probably when others aren't. Sure, you could wait until the industry has recovered but then you'll be in the same position as everyone else. Or you could go for it now and spend a fortune keeping current only to be passed over because you qualified too long ago.
If someone has the money and the dream, then my advice would be to go for it 80%. By that I mean get a PPL, do some hour building, take the ATPL exams, get an IRR, CBIR and CPL - but do it all single engine.

​​​​Then stop.

You've just spent £30k to get within a month of the finish line, with all hoops jumped through. No need to worry about ATPLs expiring (for at least 7 years!) Nothing to keep current - just let everything lapse until you're ready for the last step - because you've only got 10 hours of MEP training and an MCC/JOC course left to do. When the time is right, you're a fATPL with a one month lead time. And when you write your CV the important bits (The MEIR and MCC/JOC) will be brand new.
Very well said. One never knows what world we might be living in after 2, 3, 4 or 5 years. And getting up to the MEP IR, MCC and JOC bit is by no means quick business. I would say that 2 years from scratch to this point is a fairly optimistic timeline. Possibly more if you have to juggle it with a full-time job, a degree and less-than-perfect weather for most of the year.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 11:46
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK, Paris, Peckham, New York
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Norwegian crewing subsidiary’s failed

virgin oz now in administration
virgin Atlantic on shaky ground
Logan needs government support
cityjet Ireland administrators called in

alone these will put at a rough guess nearly 5000 qualifed pilots on the market?

not even started the shrinking of bizjet world yet, with the recession bizjet operations gets hit very hard.

now really is not the time to go anywhere near a training school!!!

and shame on the big schools for still peddling lies.
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