What is the story at OATS
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Well said tailscrape, maybe the instructors have something to moan about, maybe not! In any organisation there will always be some bad feeling no matter how good it is.
At the end of the day this discussion is about if OATS a good school for STUDENTS,especially self sponsored ones. In my humble opinion it is and it is well recognised by the airlines as being the best in Europe.
You do need to take a grip of your training there to ensure you get the best continuity and not get pushed into flying when its not in your best interest to. But surly one of the things you have to learn in this job is to make decissions.
At the end of the day this discussion is about if OATS a good school for STUDENTS,especially self sponsored ones. In my humble opinion it is and it is well recognised by the airlines as being the best in Europe.
You do need to take a grip of your training there to ensure you get the best continuity and not get pushed into flying when its not in your best interest to. But surly one of the things you have to learn in this job is to make decissions.
Guest
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Well my fellow self sponsored wannabes indeed all wannabes....confused..cause I am.
For thirteen years, I have been trying to get through my Class 1 and now I have finally done it, I have no chance of sponsorship shame but no shame (if you know what I mean). During these 13 years, I had always presumed it would be OATS for me
What it does mean though is that I am about to invest half the value of my house of which I only own 10% as it is. In other words, we should get it right.
A lot of people seem to be saying it is what you make of it and the effort you put in and how you need to steer it here there and everywhere. Well, in life that is often the way that it is and there is nothing wrong with that. Indeed it can often make you a better person. To me though there are some pretty extreme circumstances at work here which demand clear answers.
Most of us want to fly for a living because it is a passion and we are willing to put a lot on the line to achieve it. We are entering an extremely competitive market place and it can not be denied that the choice of school can undoubtedly effect your chances of employment. If only life was as fair as your hard work and effort always being rewarded fairly. You then have the huge cost in such a short time,the highly competitive market place. I could go on, but most of you know what I am saying. This means that in my view, if even the slightest element of what I hear is true about OATS, it is not acceptable. Where ever I go, I will expect equal billing in all ways combined with a recognition that I am a paying customer. If anything, I will expect a lot more from OATS than anywhere else. I am paying a lot more.
Just when I think I have made a decision, I change my mind. Until yesterday, I had made my mind up and accepted a place on the BAE course, then I read Porridge's comments. In a way I had been looking for the reason to go to OATS and this went a long way towards it. Now, rolling circle has made things extremely interesting.
I get the feeling that I will end up making my final decision based on the fact that no one (up to now) has had anything bad to say about Jerez. Not the way I want to go about it.
So finally, Geardown 3 Greens, I turn to you and your inside info (hopefully unbiassed). Please please share all and help to put us out of our misery.
Incidentially, I received a mail from someone 3 months into the BAE course. He is loving it and says that the BA Oxford students who go over there at the end of their course say how fantastic the accomodation and food is. Before anyone says anything, I know that I should never consider basing my decision on that and of course I never would, but when so little is clear, you grab at what is. It is clear that I will be saving about £7-8K going BAE and have nicer surroundings. Please tell me otherwise if anyone can!!!
For thirteen years, I have been trying to get through my Class 1 and now I have finally done it, I have no chance of sponsorship shame but no shame (if you know what I mean). During these 13 years, I had always presumed it would be OATS for me
What it does mean though is that I am about to invest half the value of my house of which I only own 10% as it is. In other words, we should get it right.
A lot of people seem to be saying it is what you make of it and the effort you put in and how you need to steer it here there and everywhere. Well, in life that is often the way that it is and there is nothing wrong with that. Indeed it can often make you a better person. To me though there are some pretty extreme circumstances at work here which demand clear answers.
Most of us want to fly for a living because it is a passion and we are willing to put a lot on the line to achieve it. We are entering an extremely competitive market place and it can not be denied that the choice of school can undoubtedly effect your chances of employment. If only life was as fair as your hard work and effort always being rewarded fairly. You then have the huge cost in such a short time,the highly competitive market place. I could go on, but most of you know what I am saying. This means that in my view, if even the slightest element of what I hear is true about OATS, it is not acceptable. Where ever I go, I will expect equal billing in all ways combined with a recognition that I am a paying customer. If anything, I will expect a lot more from OATS than anywhere else. I am paying a lot more.
Just when I think I have made a decision, I change my mind. Until yesterday, I had made my mind up and accepted a place on the BAE course, then I read Porridge's comments. In a way I had been looking for the reason to go to OATS and this went a long way towards it. Now, rolling circle has made things extremely interesting.
I get the feeling that I will end up making my final decision based on the fact that no one (up to now) has had anything bad to say about Jerez. Not the way I want to go about it.
So finally, Geardown 3 Greens, I turn to you and your inside info (hopefully unbiassed). Please please share all and help to put us out of our misery.
Incidentially, I received a mail from someone 3 months into the BAE course. He is loving it and says that the BA Oxford students who go over there at the end of their course say how fantastic the accomodation and food is. Before anyone says anything, I know that I should never consider basing my decision on that and of course I never would, but when so little is clear, you grab at what is. It is clear that I will be saving about £7-8K going BAE and have nicer surroundings. Please tell me otherwise if anyone can!!!
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Unless BAe has changed considerably since its Prestwick days, you'll find that airline cadets get just as much preferential treatment there as anywhere else. It's hardly surprising since if the school can turn out the cadets in the stated time (or less), then there's the chance of repeat business. No self-sponsored student is ever going to do the course again, so it doesn't matter so much if they happen to be a bit hacked off.
As for the comment that even of your flight is booked for 3pm, turn up at 6am. And do what? Hang around until you're so knackered you ain't going to learn anything. If the school is properly organised, a 3pm flight should be a 3pm flight, allowing you to plan your day, and your sleep around it.
The plain truth is that any school will have drawbacks. What is great for one person will be bad for another. There will always be a certain lottery in what instructor you get anyway - some are bad, most are good.
One warning about Jerez - and it's nothing to do with the school. It's a long way away. A full ATPL course can be very demanding. I found the chance to escape the clautrophobic atmosphere at weekends and get home to friends and family was a life saver.
Personally, I'd go along with the upgrade route. That way you pay your money out in smaller chunks, so you have less invested in any one school. If you want a big name like OATS on your CV, do the IR there.
You're going to spend silly money on this career before you ever see a penny back in wages. I certainly wouldn't sign for any course until I had spent a decent amount of time at the school, and chatted to staff and current students. It could save you a fortune in the long run.
Just some thoughts. Good luck wherever you go, and don't forget that flying's supposed to be fun.
As for the comment that even of your flight is booked for 3pm, turn up at 6am. And do what? Hang around until you're so knackered you ain't going to learn anything. If the school is properly organised, a 3pm flight should be a 3pm flight, allowing you to plan your day, and your sleep around it.
The plain truth is that any school will have drawbacks. What is great for one person will be bad for another. There will always be a certain lottery in what instructor you get anyway - some are bad, most are good.
One warning about Jerez - and it's nothing to do with the school. It's a long way away. A full ATPL course can be very demanding. I found the chance to escape the clautrophobic atmosphere at weekends and get home to friends and family was a life saver.
Personally, I'd go along with the upgrade route. That way you pay your money out in smaller chunks, so you have less invested in any one school. If you want a big name like OATS on your CV, do the IR there.
You're going to spend silly money on this career before you ever see a penny back in wages. I certainly wouldn't sign for any course until I had spent a decent amount of time at the school, and chatted to staff and current students. It could save you a fortune in the long run.
Just some thoughts. Good luck wherever you go, and don't forget that flying's supposed to be fun.
Guest
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">No self-sponsored student is ever going to do the course again, so it doesn't matter so much if they happen to be a bit hacked off.</font>
Self sponsored students have on balance potentially more to lose. They have invested their, or somone elses life savings into the project and if they feel they are getting less than equal treatment they will find somewhere else to spend their money. If they feel they got a raw deal into the bargain I am sure they will want to tell their friends about it, who will tell their friends, who will tell their friends.......
[This message has been edited by Flypuppy (edited 09 March 2001).]
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Low Flyer,
I do take on board some of what you said. This can be how life is, but would have to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Flypuppy.
As I said in my previous posting in this thread, our money is as good as anyones and I, as many other people on this site, are basing a large amount on comments received on this site. Obviously, first hand comments are more valuable but then that can lead to a bias admitedly. But as Flypuppy points out, the internet and word of mouth is a strong force. I will not stand for second best in terms of attitude towards me and my money.
I am not saying that this is going to be the case of any school. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, but you have only got to look through the archives to see that this stirs some strong feelings. With profit margins and competition in business these days, private clients could easily be the make or break of flying schools sooner or later.
By the way I am told that BAE is a very different school to its Prestwick days.
I do take on board some of what you said. This can be how life is, but would have to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Flypuppy.
As I said in my previous posting in this thread, our money is as good as anyones and I, as many other people on this site, are basing a large amount on comments received on this site. Obviously, first hand comments are more valuable but then that can lead to a bias admitedly. But as Flypuppy points out, the internet and word of mouth is a strong force. I will not stand for second best in terms of attitude towards me and my money.
I am not saying that this is going to be the case of any school. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, but you have only got to look through the archives to see that this stirs some strong feelings. With profit margins and competition in business these days, private clients could easily be the make or break of flying schools sooner or later.
By the way I am told that BAE is a very different school to its Prestwick days.
Guest
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Low Flyer. You say that airline sponsored students got priority in flying training at Jerez.
As a very recently departed Jerez instructor I can only say this - balderdash. Each instructor has 2 students per day. The instructor HIMSELF decides the program for the flying day and prioritises his students as he sees fit. NEVER did management tell me or any other flying instructor to push a sponsored student at the expense of a self sponsored one. IF they had they would have got a short and rather rude reply from me and my colleagues. I was a self sponsored student but 19 months ago - as are all instructors.
If anything the instructors at Jerez work harder for the self sponsored guys than for the airline cadets. I know I did. Airline Bloggs doesn't care if he saves 5 minutes on a 90minute sortie. Self Sponsored Bloggs cares a hell of a lot. You can work the system to Self Sponsored Bloggs benefit in many subtle but important ways.
I will tell you what does happen though and its common at most large colleges. Towards the end of trainig the Airline course may as a block be moved ahead of a self sponsored course so that they finish on time. This is simply because they have a fixed appointment with a type rating course and they CANNOT miss it. For the average self sponsored guy it does not matter if his whole course are re-sheduled back a fortnight with 3 months notice. He had no job to go to and the extra time allows more prep work for the IR and any exam re-sits. If the college delays the graduation date then the cost of accom and food is covered at the colleges expense.
This is a reasonable way of doing things in the real world.
A total positive aspect of mixed sponsored / non-sponsored training for the non-sponsored guys is that should a sponsoring airline need extra recruits OR replacements for chopped cadets then the very first thing they do is speak to the CFI to see if there are any self sponsored students at the college (following exactly the same course as their cadets remember) who meets/exceeds the standards of the airline cadets. Hey presto Bloggs pick up an airline sponsorship part way through training or perhaps a job offer on graduation.
So there you go.
Good luck,
WWW
As a very recently departed Jerez instructor I can only say this - balderdash. Each instructor has 2 students per day. The instructor HIMSELF decides the program for the flying day and prioritises his students as he sees fit. NEVER did management tell me or any other flying instructor to push a sponsored student at the expense of a self sponsored one. IF they had they would have got a short and rather rude reply from me and my colleagues. I was a self sponsored student but 19 months ago - as are all instructors.
If anything the instructors at Jerez work harder for the self sponsored guys than for the airline cadets. I know I did. Airline Bloggs doesn't care if he saves 5 minutes on a 90minute sortie. Self Sponsored Bloggs cares a hell of a lot. You can work the system to Self Sponsored Bloggs benefit in many subtle but important ways.
I will tell you what does happen though and its common at most large colleges. Towards the end of trainig the Airline course may as a block be moved ahead of a self sponsored course so that they finish on time. This is simply because they have a fixed appointment with a type rating course and they CANNOT miss it. For the average self sponsored guy it does not matter if his whole course are re-sheduled back a fortnight with 3 months notice. He had no job to go to and the extra time allows more prep work for the IR and any exam re-sits. If the college delays the graduation date then the cost of accom and food is covered at the colleges expense.
This is a reasonable way of doing things in the real world.
A total positive aspect of mixed sponsored / non-sponsored training for the non-sponsored guys is that should a sponsoring airline need extra recruits OR replacements for chopped cadets then the very first thing they do is speak to the CFI to see if there are any self sponsored students at the college (following exactly the same course as their cadets remember) who meets/exceeds the standards of the airline cadets. Hey presto Bloggs pick up an airline sponsorship part way through training or perhaps a job offer on graduation.
So there you go.
Good luck,
WWW
Guest
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Well, I have to agree that Sponsored Cadets do not get special treatment. My course which is mainly airline cadets has been delayed by a couple of months, and it doesn“t bother me at all.
WWW, I must say I find your last paragraph very interesting
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CW
WWW, I must say I find your last paragraph very interesting
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CW
Guest
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With regards to OATS and the Multi/IR element of course where it appears the resourcing gets a little bit difficult…
How often am I likely to fly (daily, monthly!)?
When I’m ready to start the Multi/IR phase, will I have a long wait before I can proceed due to backlogs?
Is it up to the student to organise instructor and aircraft ?
I have asked OATS but would be interested in how scheduling works in reality.
Many thanks
How often am I likely to fly (daily, monthly!)?
When I’m ready to start the Multi/IR phase, will I have a long wait before I can proceed due to backlogs?
Is it up to the student to organise instructor and aircraft ?
I have asked OATS but would be interested in how scheduling works in reality.
Many thanks
Guest
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Is it only me, or does anyone else wonder why OATS manages to stir such debate. Is it jealousy of success in some quarters, or is it no smoke without fire.
This is a hard enough decision as it is with the amount of money we will potentially blow and placing our aspirations on the line with said organisations.
Some hard facts would be good such as pass rates, time schedules and student success in the market place.
This is a hard enough decision as it is with the amount of money we will potentially blow and placing our aspirations on the line with said organisations.
Some hard facts would be good such as pass rates, time schedules and student success in the market place.
Guest
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kalik - You are quite right, I did once make a futile and ill-considered attempt to distance myself from any connection with OAT. How very sad of you to have remembered. Your contention is, I assume, that this lapse invalidates my recent exposure of the School's recent lurch towards profit at the expense of professionalism. Nice try - No cigar.
Incidentally, I was listening to Radio 4 on the way home this evening and heard the phrase "....spending all its time today sorting out the cock-ups it made yesterday" - what a stunningly insightful description of OAT management! (Pity it was being applied to the idiot Blair and his cronies.)
Incidentally, I was listening to Radio 4 on the way home this evening and heard the phrase "....spending all its time today sorting out the cock-ups it made yesterday" - what a stunningly insightful description of OAT management! (Pity it was being applied to the idiot Blair and his cronies.)
Guest
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GJB - have e-mailed Clouded, so would be interested in how your decision making is coming along aswell. Beer is a major consideration as is money - but any other feedback.
We gat a lot of the OATS people arranging travel, living and get togethers. Us potential BAE people should do the same, even meet up before we go.
Any other possible BAE people or OATS people who want to know more abot BAE or can tell us BAE people why it should be OATS, then drop us a posting.
By the way sorry HJ, maybe I should have started a new thread, but I hope that this will assist you with our common question.
We gat a lot of the OATS people arranging travel, living and get togethers. Us potential BAE people should do the same, even meet up before we go.
Any other possible BAE people or OATS people who want to know more abot BAE or can tell us BAE people why it should be OATS, then drop us a posting.
By the way sorry HJ, maybe I should have started a new thread, but I hope that this will assist you with our common question.
Guest
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Capt Wannabee - Carl O'Neil was the example I had in mind; he was offered Aer Lingus on the basis of CFI recommendation - it only didn't work out due to a sudden influx of type rated pilots in Ireland following the collapse of an indegenious airline.
BA at their recent talk to students said that they took half a dozen self sponsored from OATS in the past year as they were doing as well as their avergae sponsored guys + passed subsequent interview...
Cheers,
WWW
BA at their recent talk to students said that they took half a dozen self sponsored from OATS in the past year as they were doing as well as their avergae sponsored guys + passed subsequent interview...
Cheers,
WWW
Guest
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Taking the decision to go it alone along the self-sponsored route is perhaps the most difficult decision I have had to make. To make matters worse is the added confusion as to where to invest my hard earned dosh. But I believe, hand on heart, that when I start at OATS in May I will have made the right decision. Rumours have always been around that airlines are given preferential treatment, they might, but only if you let them. I am not going to stand by and watch myself get pushed of the board for some airline brown noser; it is my frimly held belief that whatever school you decide to go to, your fate is in your own hands and that you will be helped if you help yourself. It seems to me that the type of people that do not succeed on the perilous road of self-sponsorship are those for who money is not a problem, the type of people who can afford to live in Oxford for an extra couple of monthes. Therefore if the instructors can get away with pushing someone of the flying board, they will, particularily if the place is given up for someone who is more eager to be there!!!!! this will be the same for whichever course you choose be it BAe or OATS.
ironically I made my decision to go to OATS on the basis of the amount of airlines they do work with! At the end of the day it is a dog eat dog world and you have to give yourslf the best possible chances, something that OATS can offer those willing to get off their backside and fight for!!!!!!!!
ironically I made my decision to go to OATS on the basis of the amount of airlines they do work with! At the end of the day it is a dog eat dog world and you have to give yourslf the best possible chances, something that OATS can offer those willing to get off their backside and fight for!!!!!!!!
Guest
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Slightly off topic but I have been reading this thread with interest as an ex-OATS airline cadet, and am a bit concerned at the attitude of certain contributers who have yet to take up a place at a flying school.
Calling potential coursemates 'space cadets' or 'airline brown nosers' is hardly good CRM, is it? While noone would put down the majority of self sponsored students hard work and determination, remember that ALL airline cadets have had to work hard to get on the scheme, and their training has not been handed to them on a plate. Also it is often an uncomfortable feeling for them to see their name move up the board in favour of their best friend's because their sponsor is getting stroppy. (trust me on this one).
Anyway, I refer to my previous comment on this thread. Whoever is paying your bill, get up, stop whingeing and make the most of your best opportunity to get a job.
Calling potential coursemates 'space cadets' or 'airline brown nosers' is hardly good CRM, is it? While noone would put down the majority of self sponsored students hard work and determination, remember that ALL airline cadets have had to work hard to get on the scheme, and their training has not been handed to them on a plate. Also it is often an uncomfortable feeling for them to see their name move up the board in favour of their best friend's because their sponsor is getting stroppy. (trust me on this one).
Anyway, I refer to my previous comment on this thread. Whoever is paying your bill, get up, stop whingeing and make the most of your best opportunity to get a job.