Naples Air Center (NAC) for fATPL
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
I have identified three ways of doing this.
The expensive way, the middle ground, and the cheap route.
The expensive way.
Look at FTE Jerez web site, at the 'flight deck plus' course.
You will need a ICAO PPL and 157 hours to start.
The middle ground.
Any UK school. I was going to send my kids to Stapleford. Their web site says you need a ICAO PPL and 150 hours.
The cheap route.
Bartiloni in Lodz Poland. I haven't looked into it enough, but I know it's a good cheaper option.
I'm still convinced that the US FAA PPL and 150+ hours is the best way forward.
But came up with the instrument rating idea as a better way of gaining the last 50 hours.
It's more productive than just bouncing around uncontrolled American airports.
Although there's no better fun.
You can also take a break from America for six months whilst you do your written exams in the UK.
I do not believe I could spend very long with any one school.
Something about me, maybe.
I just doesn't like conformity.
That's why I wanted to be a pilot.
I like to go do something, and then fall back to regroup, and plan my next goal.
These kids today sign up with the big schools, and have planned their life up to Airbus A320 captain at age 26, without ever having flown a plane.
I had to take many breaks in my career.
All in good time.
It's an endurance event, not a sprint.
The expensive way, the middle ground, and the cheap route.
The expensive way.
Look at FTE Jerez web site, at the 'flight deck plus' course.
You will need a ICAO PPL and 157 hours to start.
The middle ground.
Any UK school. I was going to send my kids to Stapleford. Their web site says you need a ICAO PPL and 150 hours.
The cheap route.
Bartiloni in Lodz Poland. I haven't looked into it enough, but I know it's a good cheaper option.
I'm still convinced that the US FAA PPL and 150+ hours is the best way forward.
But came up with the instrument rating idea as a better way of gaining the last 50 hours.
It's more productive than just bouncing around uncontrolled American airports.
Although there's no better fun.
You can also take a break from America for six months whilst you do your written exams in the UK.
I do not believe I could spend very long with any one school.
Something about me, maybe.
I just doesn't like conformity.
That's why I wanted to be a pilot.
I like to go do something, and then fall back to regroup, and plan my next goal.
These kids today sign up with the big schools, and have planned their life up to Airbus A320 captain at age 26, without ever having flown a plane.
I had to take many breaks in my career.
All in good time.
It's an endurance event, not a sprint.
Last edited by button push ignored; 20th May 2017 at 22:17.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 660
Likes: 20
From: England
Mat.
I have no first-hand knowledge of the quality of training currently provided by Naples air Centre, or the relationship between them and Bristol Groundschool. But a search within pprune archives for the period 2000 to about 2005 will reveal some interesting material.
If I remember correctly, Naples Air Centre was owned by a Captain Robert Gentile. He and Alex Whittingham engaged in some far-from-friendly debates at that time.
The fortunes of Naples air Centre then appeared to go into decline, with stories of unhappy customers.
It is of course possible that the situation is now completely different, and Naples Air Centre may indeed be a centre of excellence. But it does seem a little bit strange that they do not appear to have their own approvals, And Bristol Groundschool are not shouting out about their new outstation on their website.
I have no first-hand knowledge of the quality of training currently provided by Naples air Centre, or the relationship between them and Bristol Groundschool. But a search within pprune archives for the period 2000 to about 2005 will reveal some interesting material.
If I remember correctly, Naples Air Centre was owned by a Captain Robert Gentile. He and Alex Whittingham engaged in some far-from-friendly debates at that time.
The fortunes of Naples air Centre then appeared to go into decline, with stories of unhappy customers.
It is of course possible that the situation is now completely different, and Naples Air Centre may indeed be a centre of excellence. But it does seem a little bit strange that they do not appear to have their own approvals, And Bristol Groundschool are not shouting out about their new outstation on their website.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,846
Likes: 4
From: Bristol, England
Not sure what axe you're grinding here Keith, but you are on the wrong track. I haven't bothered to research posts from 15 years ago but I do vaguely recall a spat with Richard Gentil, I can't remember what it was about, though.
Around that time NAC were trying to develop their own distance learning course, and I think its fair to say that it didn't work, mostly because the material wasn't very good, and in the end they switched to Jepp books.
We set up NAC as a satellite under our approvals a couple of years ago. This means that they operate as contractors to us to run revision courses in Naples FLA. In other words students buy and receive a standard bristol.gs distance learning course under our approvals, we operate the distance learning element, students go to Naples for their revision courses, then we sign them off for their exams which they usually take in Florida. In practice, because NAC have full time instructors, the minimum requirements of a distance learning revision course are supplemented by more classroom training at Naples but outside any approval requirement.
Because students have bought a Bristol course they are free, if they wish, to return to the UK and do the revision courses with us rather than staying in the States, NAC and Bristol just shuffle the money around so that we get paid for the revision courses rather than Naples.
There's nothing either strange or unusual about the satellite concept. We have others, The Aviation Centre in Mallorca and until recently Ayla Aviation in Jordan. Stuart at CATS has more and, of course, the integrated schools like CTC and CAE contract US based flight schools to do the VFR flying. Oddly the CAA don't show the additional sites that are approved in Standards Doc 31.
Around that time NAC were trying to develop their own distance learning course, and I think its fair to say that it didn't work, mostly because the material wasn't very good, and in the end they switched to Jepp books.
We set up NAC as a satellite under our approvals a couple of years ago. This means that they operate as contractors to us to run revision courses in Naples FLA. In other words students buy and receive a standard bristol.gs distance learning course under our approvals, we operate the distance learning element, students go to Naples for their revision courses, then we sign them off for their exams which they usually take in Florida. In practice, because NAC have full time instructors, the minimum requirements of a distance learning revision course are supplemented by more classroom training at Naples but outside any approval requirement.
Because students have bought a Bristol course they are free, if they wish, to return to the UK and do the revision courses with us rather than staying in the States, NAC and Bristol just shuffle the money around so that we get paid for the revision courses rather than Naples.
There's nothing either strange or unusual about the satellite concept. We have others, The Aviation Centre in Mallorca and until recently Ayla Aviation in Jordan. Stuart at CATS has more and, of course, the integrated schools like CTC and CAE contract US based flight schools to do the VFR flying. Oddly the CAA don't show the additional sites that are approved in Standards Doc 31.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 660
Likes: 20
From: England
Alex, I do not have any axe to grind and I am not on any track.
When I read the statement that NAC is operating under your approvals, my first reaction was surprise, and then suspicion that they were telling porkies pies. As I recall things, past discussions between you and Richard were decidedly unfriendly, and the feedback from NAC students was not at all good at that time. When I then looked at your website and found that NAC is not llisted as one of your partners, this made me more sceptical.
You have now stated the facts of the situation and in effect have benefitted from a little bit of free advertising.
When I read the statement that NAC is operating under your approvals, my first reaction was surprise, and then suspicion that they were telling porkies pies. As I recall things, past discussions between you and Richard were decidedly unfriendly, and the feedback from NAC students was not at all good at that time. When I then looked at your website and found that NAC is not llisted as one of your partners, this made me more sceptical.
You have now stated the facts of the situation and in effect have benefitted from a little bit of free advertising.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,846
Likes: 4
From: Bristol, England
Indeed, thank you. Like me you will have learned over the years to take the bitter infighting between US schools with a slight pinch of salt. Thankfully one or two of the more 'colourful' characters have retired.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: United Kingdom
Thanks all for the replies.
This has somewhat confused me even more!
Button_push_ignored: I'm either going to be doing PTT or Florida I'm afraid. I understand your routes completely and can see how they would be more beneficial but ultimately I'm going halves with my parents (obviously paying them back once in work) so their view is either PTT or a school in Florida. I have thought a lot about it and I've shown them this whole thread too, so thankyou!!
Alex Whittingham: Thankyou for replying to this thread, a lot of people seemed to believe Bristol had absolutely nothing to do with NAC. So am I right in believing that it is, infact, alright to go to this school now? Bristol's sterling reputation was one of the main reasons I wanted to go as I saw it advertised on the NAC website, but other speculations lead me to believe otherwise. I have tried sending you an 'email' through this forum, but I can't seem to find where the inbox actually is haha.
This has somewhat confused me even more!
Button_push_ignored: I'm either going to be doing PTT or Florida I'm afraid. I understand your routes completely and can see how they would be more beneficial but ultimately I'm going halves with my parents (obviously paying them back once in work) so their view is either PTT or a school in Florida. I have thought a lot about it and I've shown them this whole thread too, so thankyou!!
Alex Whittingham: Thankyou for replying to this thread, a lot of people seemed to believe Bristol had absolutely nothing to do with NAC. So am I right in believing that it is, infact, alright to go to this school now? Bristol's sterling reputation was one of the main reasons I wanted to go as I saw it advertised on the NAC website, but other speculations lead me to believe otherwise. I have tried sending you an 'email' through this forum, but I can't seem to find where the inbox actually is haha.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Matt.
I don't know where you are in the UK.
But why don't you go do a long drive around all the flight schools and ground schools in your area, where you can get a CPL/IR/ME?
Also in the area where friends or relatives live that you can stay with for up to ten months.
I would base my ground school choice on free digs.
I wouldn't pay for housing.
I'd rather do it with BGS on-line from home than pay housing.
You'd must disconnect the telephone and internet and TV.
I mean this, really I do.
Give yourself six months to do it.
Not a day longer.
Do not drag it out.
100% dedication is required.
I only know the South-East UK, but there are many other places.
For flight schools you have Stapleford, Shoreham, Hurn, Exeter and Booker that I'm familiar with.
I recommend them all.
For ground schools you have.
Stapleford, Shoreham, Hurn, Luton, Coventry, Edinburgh, Oxford and maybe some more.
Don't forget Cork, Ireland too.
The two big schools at Southampton and Oxford will not be of any help, except Oxford you can do the ground school with them, but I wouldn't recommend it.
See the chief flight instructor and ask him/her this direct.
"Can I come to you with a FAA PPL/IR and 150+ hours (Just like I laid out for you), with all 14 EASA written exams passed, and do a CAA CPL/ME/IR with you?"
Time to get telephoning places and doing a drive with who ever is footing the bill.
For your flight training in the US.
Ft Myers will be fine.
Have your friend look around all the schools in the local area.
Remember you don't need anything more than an instructor and a plane.
Part 141 schools are better, as they are more structured.
But it's not a necessity.
It's more on the quality of the instructor and how well you get on with them, than anything else.
Oh, now I see your post about it either being PTT at Leeds or one stop shopping in the US.
Well, why not look in BCFT at Bournemouth program?
Their integrated program sends you to FIT in Melborne Florida.
You basically do my idea of a program but under their watchful eye.
Give, I think her name is Sandra a call.
You can do the writtens either in the US or UK.
And the CPL as well.
It's only the IR that has to be done in the UK.
I don't know where you are in the UK.
But why don't you go do a long drive around all the flight schools and ground schools in your area, where you can get a CPL/IR/ME?
Also in the area where friends or relatives live that you can stay with for up to ten months.
I would base my ground school choice on free digs.
I wouldn't pay for housing.
I'd rather do it with BGS on-line from home than pay housing.
You'd must disconnect the telephone and internet and TV.
I mean this, really I do.
Give yourself six months to do it.
Not a day longer.
Do not drag it out.
100% dedication is required.
I only know the South-East UK, but there are many other places.
For flight schools you have Stapleford, Shoreham, Hurn, Exeter and Booker that I'm familiar with.
I recommend them all.
For ground schools you have.
Stapleford, Shoreham, Hurn, Luton, Coventry, Edinburgh, Oxford and maybe some more.
Don't forget Cork, Ireland too.
The two big schools at Southampton and Oxford will not be of any help, except Oxford you can do the ground school with them, but I wouldn't recommend it.
See the chief flight instructor and ask him/her this direct.
"Can I come to you with a FAA PPL/IR and 150+ hours (Just like I laid out for you), with all 14 EASA written exams passed, and do a CAA CPL/ME/IR with you?"
Time to get telephoning places and doing a drive with who ever is footing the bill.
For your flight training in the US.
Ft Myers will be fine.
Have your friend look around all the schools in the local area.
Remember you don't need anything more than an instructor and a plane.
Part 141 schools are better, as they are more structured.
But it's not a necessity.
It's more on the quality of the instructor and how well you get on with them, than anything else.
Oh, now I see your post about it either being PTT at Leeds or one stop shopping in the US.
Well, why not look in BCFT at Bournemouth program?
Their integrated program sends you to FIT in Melborne Florida.
You basically do my idea of a program but under their watchful eye.
Give, I think her name is Sandra a call.
You can do the writtens either in the US or UK.
And the CPL as well.
It's only the IR that has to be done in the UK.
Last edited by button push ignored; 20th May 2017 at 21:30.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,975
Likes: 327
From: Hong Kong
I love chipping in to these threads because it feels like I'm going back in time and giving myself the advice.. just to muddy the waters, have you considered Canada? FAA and Canadian licences are interchangeable with a medical and written exam, so you can get both licences with the same flight test. If I could go back in time and do one thing it would be to get 50 hours on floats during my hour building. And an IR. Instead I blew the most fun flying period of my career doing touch and gos...
Last edited by rudestuff; 18th May 2017 at 20:59.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Rudestuff. and Matt.
I've got about thirty years of heavy flight time.
I don't remember much about it.
But, the time spent with my kids flying the family's Cessna 172 is beyond a doubt, the best time of my life.
And that's never a waste of time.
Canada is a fine place, but I find it a little boring.
North Dakota, but without the excitement.
But a Canadian PPL or a FAA PPL and 150-200 hours both work equally.
Isn't Naples Air Center ground school actually Gulf Coast Aviation?
I've got about thirty years of heavy flight time.
I don't remember much about it.
But, the time spent with my kids flying the family's Cessna 172 is beyond a doubt, the best time of my life.
And that's never a waste of time.
Canada is a fine place, but I find it a little boring.
North Dakota, but without the excitement.
But a Canadian PPL or a FAA PPL and 150-200 hours both work equally.
Isn't Naples Air Center ground school actually Gulf Coast Aviation?
Last edited by button push ignored; 20th May 2017 at 21:32.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,975
Likes: 327
From: Hong Kong
Don't get me wrong, I was the king of touch & gos for a while, landing was my favourite part. With a decent wind I used to stop a Cessna on the keys. But now I'd love to go to the US or Canada and rent a floatplane just for the hell of it, but without 50 hours on floats a rating is useless. If I could talk to my younger self I'd say get 50 hours on floats as part of my hour building..
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
There is no right or wrong way of doing this.
Just variations on the same theme.
All roads North, lead to Scotland.
But since this is such a huge investment for native working/middle class British youth, (the group I try to help).
I don't advocate doing frivolous activities like sea plane ratings at this time.
The only extra curricular activity I would encourage is gliding at a primary stage in ones career.
Later when your at your regional or low cost carrier, and you have paid off all your debts, and got your down payment on a house.
Why then by all means go the Winter Haven, Florida an see your good old Uncle Jack.
I see a helicopter license as a detriment.
Like you couldn't decide what you wanted to do.
You must show the airline recruiter that you have been focused in your career path from an early age.
It alright to joining Air Training Cadets or a Gliding Club before starting fixed wing training.
But once you start, your goal has always been to work for who ever is on the other side of the interview table.
I hope your good at faking it.
"I'll bring my own stick to beat myself up with, to save you the trouble'"
Because some days you'll wonder why the heck you chose to do this.
Matt.
I wish you luck with what ever you decide to do.
Once your done.
Post your experiences on this board, so others can learn.
Just variations on the same theme.
All roads North, lead to Scotland.
But since this is such a huge investment for native working/middle class British youth, (the group I try to help).
I don't advocate doing frivolous activities like sea plane ratings at this time.
The only extra curricular activity I would encourage is gliding at a primary stage in ones career.
Later when your at your regional or low cost carrier, and you have paid off all your debts, and got your down payment on a house.
Why then by all means go the Winter Haven, Florida an see your good old Uncle Jack.
I see a helicopter license as a detriment.
Like you couldn't decide what you wanted to do.
You must show the airline recruiter that you have been focused in your career path from an early age.
It alright to joining Air Training Cadets or a Gliding Club before starting fixed wing training.
But once you start, your goal has always been to work for who ever is on the other side of the interview table.
I hope your good at faking it.
"I'll bring my own stick to beat myself up with, to save you the trouble'"
Because some days you'll wonder why the heck you chose to do this.
Matt.
I wish you luck with what ever you decide to do.
Once your done.
Post your experiences on this board, so others can learn.
Last edited by button push ignored; 20th May 2017 at 21:33.
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,759
Likes: 424
From: GA, USA
Matt,
There is yet another option.
The only (student) visa that allows limited work is the F-1 visa.
If I'm not mistaken there are 5-6 large flight schools that have the authority to issue F-1 visa.
This allows you to undertake FAA training from 0-ATP.
Since ATP requires 1500 hrs and your FAA CPL 250 you get to work the remainder.
Generally as Flight Instructor at the school where you took the training but with permission from the school you can also instruct elsewhere.
After a total of about 18 months you'll have 1500 hrs of which hopefully 200-300 Multi engine and an ICAO recognized ATP that would allow you to work anywhere that recognizes it without lengthy conversions.
Or you return to Europa-land for an EASA conversion.
Just make sure you log your hours EASA compliant.
In the mean time I have fairy tale for you to read.
None of it is true...of course
Once upon a time in a far far away land there was a flight school by the name of Fantasy Aviation Academy.
They have a nice clean website without the usual excess of necessary information that other flight schools seem to clutter their website with. A little intro video with a trustworthy accent available on every page.
Curiously their aircraft rates are dry rates. They do offer a link to a page with local fuel prices.
This leads to some questions as it appears this is where the "Death by a thousand Cuts" starts in our story as other schools use "wet rates".
Lets say that the local fuel price is $4.00/gallon. Training flight always burn more gas then the manual states because of all the climbs and descends and power changes. Assume 10 gallons/hr in your average 160hp single engine trainer. But the $4 charged is not the price paid as our Academy will have a local tenant rate at their airport and a discount for prepaid amounts.
For the sake of our fairy tale lets say they pay $3/gallon.
That's $10 extra that you pay per hour.
So are you limited to the endurance/range of the airplane for your cross countries and time building? What if you buy fuel somewhere else?
How is this reimbursed and at what rate? Is it reimbursed at all since you rent the airplane "dry"?
When you "wet" rent an airplane you usually get reimbursed at the local discounted rate the school gets as paying you back more would just be bad business.
The Fantasy Aviation Academy has some interesting courses mentioned. None of which break down the hours flown per type of airplane. They also offer an add-on course in an airplane that hasn't been in flying condition since the dawn of time.
The mystery deepens as Individual Courses require a small upfront payment and a refund is at least optional if warranted. The Career Pilot Program is excluded from any refunds.
This is potentially a big red flag. It is fully understandable that a flight school requires your account to remain positive at all times. They are a business and not a philanthropic institute. So if the account person goes home on Friday at 5pm your account will need to hold sufficient funds for your weekend of flying.
This could easily be $2,000 or more depending on lessons planned and contingencies.
Paying $10,000-$15,000 upfront could be a sign of a 'pyramid' business plan.
There is nothing, read nothing that a school needs to pay upfront for you to train. It is possible that your money is used for building rent, utilities, payroll and a host of other things that have nothing to do with your training. There may be no money to give back should you require a refund.
Since you will be training to be a Professional Pilot maybe you'll even sign a training contract that stipulates you will receive no refunds. Ever.
Keep in mind that life may interfere.
Death or serious illness of a loved one back home.
What about illness on you part?
Naturally you can always come back to finish but what if you can't? Don't want to?
Loosing out on $1500 will sting but loosing out on $15,000 or more will hurt.
Fantasy Aviation Academy knows what is good for you and encourages you to buy all course requirements through them
Makes you wonder what the mark-up is and if there is a perfectly stocked Pilot Supply store on the field. Who knows.
Maybe a google search will give you that answer.
Fantasy Aviation Academy does not list which airplanes are used for which portion of which course. Which means that aircraft of equal or lesser value may be substituted at no additional cost to you....
Or aircraft of equal or higher rates may be substituted at considerable cost to you. You may be strongly encouraged to upgrade.
Potentially another red flag. The 'cheaper' airplane may not be "available" for the duration of your course. You may be asked to fly with career instructors with an airline background and their hourly fee is 4-5 times the regular instructor rate.
But they are "worth it".
Fantasy Aviation Academy understands your a tight-wad student minding the money so they may have a great deal for you. You hear the insurance deductible on the aircraft is $5,000 so since you're a student you'll undoubtedly ding an aircraft during your tenure there. The Academy may offer you the option to buy off the deductible for the small sum of $3-$4/hr on top of your rental rate. Wow, isn't that nice of them. Because the alternative is like...wow..$5,000 out of your training funds
Till you find out our Fantasy Academy does not carry hull insurance as it is not required. A quick calculation leads to the conclusion they can buy a replacement airplane cash out of pocket every 8-9 months or so.
Therefore no insurance required.
Death by a thousand cuts.
You may have an instructor change during a course of training. This instructor may need to "see" certain maneuvers as otherwise he won't know fi you are proficient in them. Makes perfect sense.
Except it just added 3-4 hours to your course. And everybody else's course.
Death by a thousand cuts.
A good school will conduct stage checks during spaced intervals in your training to make sure you are proficient to carry on to the next level.
It is actually a requirement if you train under 14 CFR Part 141 but a good school will do it for 14 CFR Part 61 training also.
It's not unusual that you fail these stage checks as they are generally done by a more experienced instructor who may see flaws your day to day Instructor has over looked. You may have some exam-jitters too.
All of this is normal.
Till a lot of students start failing a lot of stage checks. This means that either the Instructors are not properly trained and standardized or it's part of a business plan.
Alternatively all the students could be potato heads that season.
Slim chance.
Death by a thousand cuts.
Your PPL may take a little longer. Well maybe you were not the Orville you thought you were. maybe your IR will take a little longer, maybe double.
Well, nobody said this was going to be easy so we just soldier on shall we?
Eventually you may realize that your carefully budgeted funds are no longer enough and you decide to drop the Multi engine add-on.
Then you may realize you do not have sufficient funds to even finish the course. Well what if you go to another academy with nice new shiny fast airplanes at a better rate where your remaining funds will allow you to finish?
Well.... Fantasy Aviation Academy can transfer your visa but they can't transfer your funds. See it says so right here on the website and on the contract you signed.
* the above is all a figment of my wildly disturbed imagination and bears no resemblance to anything in particular, past, present or future but hopefully there are enough Easter eggs for you to find your way out of the rabbit hole.
There is yet another option.
The only (student) visa that allows limited work is the F-1 visa.
If I'm not mistaken there are 5-6 large flight schools that have the authority to issue F-1 visa.
This allows you to undertake FAA training from 0-ATP.
Since ATP requires 1500 hrs and your FAA CPL 250 you get to work the remainder.
Generally as Flight Instructor at the school where you took the training but with permission from the school you can also instruct elsewhere.
After a total of about 18 months you'll have 1500 hrs of which hopefully 200-300 Multi engine and an ICAO recognized ATP that would allow you to work anywhere that recognizes it without lengthy conversions.
Or you return to Europa-land for an EASA conversion.
Just make sure you log your hours EASA compliant.
In the mean time I have fairy tale for you to read.
None of it is true...of course
Once upon a time in a far far away land there was a flight school by the name of Fantasy Aviation Academy.
They have a nice clean website without the usual excess of necessary information that other flight schools seem to clutter their website with. A little intro video with a trustworthy accent available on every page.
Curiously their aircraft rates are dry rates. They do offer a link to a page with local fuel prices.
This leads to some questions as it appears this is where the "Death by a thousand Cuts" starts in our story as other schools use "wet rates".
Lets say that the local fuel price is $4.00/gallon. Training flight always burn more gas then the manual states because of all the climbs and descends and power changes. Assume 10 gallons/hr in your average 160hp single engine trainer. But the $4 charged is not the price paid as our Academy will have a local tenant rate at their airport and a discount for prepaid amounts.
For the sake of our fairy tale lets say they pay $3/gallon.
That's $10 extra that you pay per hour.
So are you limited to the endurance/range of the airplane for your cross countries and time building? What if you buy fuel somewhere else?
How is this reimbursed and at what rate? Is it reimbursed at all since you rent the airplane "dry"?
When you "wet" rent an airplane you usually get reimbursed at the local discounted rate the school gets as paying you back more would just be bad business.
The Fantasy Aviation Academy has some interesting courses mentioned. None of which break down the hours flown per type of airplane. They also offer an add-on course in an airplane that hasn't been in flying condition since the dawn of time.
The mystery deepens as Individual Courses require a small upfront payment and a refund is at least optional if warranted. The Career Pilot Program is excluded from any refunds.
This is potentially a big red flag. It is fully understandable that a flight school requires your account to remain positive at all times. They are a business and not a philanthropic institute. So if the account person goes home on Friday at 5pm your account will need to hold sufficient funds for your weekend of flying.
This could easily be $2,000 or more depending on lessons planned and contingencies.
Paying $10,000-$15,000 upfront could be a sign of a 'pyramid' business plan.
There is nothing, read nothing that a school needs to pay upfront for you to train. It is possible that your money is used for building rent, utilities, payroll and a host of other things that have nothing to do with your training. There may be no money to give back should you require a refund.
Since you will be training to be a Professional Pilot maybe you'll even sign a training contract that stipulates you will receive no refunds. Ever.
Keep in mind that life may interfere.
Death or serious illness of a loved one back home.
What about illness on you part?
Naturally you can always come back to finish but what if you can't? Don't want to?
Loosing out on $1500 will sting but loosing out on $15,000 or more will hurt.
Fantasy Aviation Academy knows what is good for you and encourages you to buy all course requirements through them
Makes you wonder what the mark-up is and if there is a perfectly stocked Pilot Supply store on the field. Who knows.
Maybe a google search will give you that answer.
Fantasy Aviation Academy does not list which airplanes are used for which portion of which course. Which means that aircraft of equal or lesser value may be substituted at no additional cost to you....
Or aircraft of equal or higher rates may be substituted at considerable cost to you. You may be strongly encouraged to upgrade.
Potentially another red flag. The 'cheaper' airplane may not be "available" for the duration of your course. You may be asked to fly with career instructors with an airline background and their hourly fee is 4-5 times the regular instructor rate.
But they are "worth it".
Fantasy Aviation Academy understands your a tight-wad student minding the money so they may have a great deal for you. You hear the insurance deductible on the aircraft is $5,000 so since you're a student you'll undoubtedly ding an aircraft during your tenure there. The Academy may offer you the option to buy off the deductible for the small sum of $3-$4/hr on top of your rental rate. Wow, isn't that nice of them. Because the alternative is like...wow..$5,000 out of your training funds
Till you find out our Fantasy Academy does not carry hull insurance as it is not required. A quick calculation leads to the conclusion they can buy a replacement airplane cash out of pocket every 8-9 months or so.
Therefore no insurance required.
Death by a thousand cuts.
You may have an instructor change during a course of training. This instructor may need to "see" certain maneuvers as otherwise he won't know fi you are proficient in them. Makes perfect sense.
Except it just added 3-4 hours to your course. And everybody else's course.
Death by a thousand cuts.
A good school will conduct stage checks during spaced intervals in your training to make sure you are proficient to carry on to the next level.
It is actually a requirement if you train under 14 CFR Part 141 but a good school will do it for 14 CFR Part 61 training also.
It's not unusual that you fail these stage checks as they are generally done by a more experienced instructor who may see flaws your day to day Instructor has over looked. You may have some exam-jitters too.
All of this is normal.
Till a lot of students start failing a lot of stage checks. This means that either the Instructors are not properly trained and standardized or it's part of a business plan.
Alternatively all the students could be potato heads that season.
Slim chance.
Death by a thousand cuts.
Your PPL may take a little longer. Well maybe you were not the Orville you thought you were. maybe your IR will take a little longer, maybe double.
Well, nobody said this was going to be easy so we just soldier on shall we?
Eventually you may realize that your carefully budgeted funds are no longer enough and you decide to drop the Multi engine add-on.
Then you may realize you do not have sufficient funds to even finish the course. Well what if you go to another academy with nice new shiny fast airplanes at a better rate where your remaining funds will allow you to finish?
Well.... Fantasy Aviation Academy can transfer your visa but they can't transfer your funds. See it says so right here on the website and on the contract you signed.
* the above is all a figment of my wildly disturbed imagination and bears no resemblance to anything in particular, past, present or future but hopefully there are enough Easter eggs for you to find your way out of the rabbit hole.
Last edited by B2N2; 19th May 2017 at 00:52.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
B2 - so true......
And there's nothing wrong with Canada. Whether it's boring or not has nothing to do with your purpose for going there. Florida is boring too - it's flat to stop the oranges rolling away
To quote Gene Hackman - "I woke up and thought I was dead - but I was just in Nebraska".
In fact, Canada might be easier to get into these days. You certainly won't get better float training, and if you do the IR, you still get to use NDBs, so you won't waste your time learning new stuff for the EASA version.
Suggest you have a word with Adam at Harv's Air (quite close to Winnipeg, which has on average 256 clear days a year). But there are other places, I just have personal experience with them. canada411.com is the nationwide telephone directory - flight schools will be found in it.
Another thing to consider with the DIY route is that you get a viable piece of paper (i.e. a PPL) quite early, so you can take advantage of stray hours, should you be lucky enough to bump into someone who owns an aircraft. If you do a full course, you don't get any paperwork until the end of the course, if you pass it.
Lastly, take a lesson from the scabair (cabair) debacle, and DON'T PAY ANYTHING UP FRONT, except maybe for that day's flying. Schools ask for money up front because students have been known to stitch them up with the invoicing system, but it goes both ways.
And there's nothing wrong with Canada. Whether it's boring or not has nothing to do with your purpose for going there. Florida is boring too - it's flat to stop the oranges rolling away
To quote Gene Hackman - "I woke up and thought I was dead - but I was just in Nebraska".In fact, Canada might be easier to get into these days. You certainly won't get better float training, and if you do the IR, you still get to use NDBs, so you won't waste your time learning new stuff for the EASA version.
Suggest you have a word with Adam at Harv's Air (quite close to Winnipeg, which has on average 256 clear days a year). But there are other places, I just have personal experience with them. canada411.com is the nationwide telephone directory - flight schools will be found in it.
Another thing to consider with the DIY route is that you get a viable piece of paper (i.e. a PPL) quite early, so you can take advantage of stray hours, should you be lucky enough to bump into someone who owns an aircraft. If you do a full course, you don't get any paperwork until the end of the course, if you pass it.
Lastly, take a lesson from the scabair (cabair) debacle, and DON'T PAY ANYTHING UP FRONT, except maybe for that day's flying. Schools ask for money up front because students have been known to stitch them up with the invoicing system, but it goes both ways.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,975
Likes: 327
From: Hong Kong
FAA training requires lots of paperwork. Sevis approved school - less choice more expensive, Visa application fees to the school and embassy. Visit to the embassy. TSA approval etc etc.
Canada: Turn up. Fly.
Canada: Turn up. Fly.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 660
Likes: 20
From: England
Matt, asking Alex if it is alright to go to Naples Air Centre is, in effect asking a salesman if it is ok to buy his products. Under what circumstances would any such salesman say no?
The post from B2N2 illustrates the types of problems which have been reported by students from Naples Air Centre in the past. It is possible that the company now has a totally different attitude, but if this is not the case, having the Bristol Ground School link will not protect you.
I suggest you do a pprune search for feedback ( I found comments from 2014) then find out it the problems reported still exist.
The post from B2N2 illustrates the types of problems which have been reported by students from Naples Air Centre in the past. It is possible that the company now has a totally different attitude, but if this is not the case, having the Bristol Ground School link will not protect you.
I suggest you do a pprune search for feedback ( I found comments from 2014) then find out it the problems reported still exist.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,846
Likes: 4
From: Bristol, England
This is true, I know practically nothing about the flying side, apart from when I was last there one of my ex-students was doing a CPL course and she was having a positive experience, although she hadn't finished. I'm assuming Matt has searched PPRuNe.
B2N2 illustrates some of the ghastly behaviour from US flight schools in the past, hence their generally poor reputation. He left out visa shenanigans and shockingly poor maintenance which also feature(d). It is certainly true that there are ATOs in the US that I would not do business with under any circumstances because of the damage to reputation that would inevitably follow. NAC is not one of those, but you must make your own mind up. If you can't/don't want to contact NAC and ask these questions then suggest you ask Andrewsfield Aviation in Essex, as its their approval potentially at risk if there are any dodgy doings. If you have any doubt, look elsewhere, there are plenty of options in Europe.
B2N2 illustrates some of the ghastly behaviour from US flight schools in the past, hence their generally poor reputation. He left out visa shenanigans and shockingly poor maintenance which also feature(d). It is certainly true that there are ATOs in the US that I would not do business with under any circumstances because of the damage to reputation that would inevitably follow. NAC is not one of those, but you must make your own mind up. If you can't/don't want to contact NAC and ask these questions then suggest you ask Andrewsfield Aviation in Essex, as its their approval potentially at risk if there are any dodgy doings. If you have any doubt, look elsewhere, there are plenty of options in Europe.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 660
Likes: 20
From: England
Yes Alex, that (past behaviour of many US schools) is why I was sceptical when I read that NAC is operating under your approvals. I suspect that you had to think long and hard before linking your company to any of them.
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,759
Likes: 424
From: GA, USA
In Alex' defense, the EASA ground school portion has nothing to do with the practical flight training portion of the school and is very likely for liability reasons registered as a separate company.
Naples Air Center Inc vs Naples Ground School LLC or something similar.
No doubt this connection was known and acted upon.
If a certain way of doing business is part of an intentional business plan than this is guided from the top down.
I have personally worked for a company where the root cause of all the shenanigans was the Director of Operations.
Unless people in leadership positions have been replaced what once was...will still be.
As far as what I would recommend Matt;
Do an extended search on this forum.
Even when you find a thread from 7-8 years ago it can still be useful as some people may still be a member here.
Click on their username, click on their 'stats' and see when they posted on this forum last.
If that was within the last couple for months it is very likely they are still a member here.
Send them a PM and ask for their experiences in private.
You may hear more then can ever be posted on a public forum.
My offers till stands, send me a PM and we can call/Skype/Facetime.
I'll extend that invitation also to the ones that foot the bill, your parents.
I have no connection to any training provider but have extensive prior experience in the flight training industry.
Like everybody I've moved on in my career and now flying something pretty fast that Mr Boeing built.
Now to credit my primary flight training provider for that is ludicrous.
That is nothing more then synchronicity.
Unless the school is the one that is integrated with an employer the ones that claim their successes should also claim their losses.
A website should read " some of our former students have made it to the following airlines after they've left us and pursued their careers" rather then
" our students fly at XYZ because they chose to do their PPL with us " as that would be a blatant marketing lie.
Naples Air Center Inc vs Naples Ground School LLC or something similar.
when I was last there one of my ex-students was doing a CPL course and she was having a positive experience, although she hadn't finished
B2N2 illustrates some of the ghastly behaviour from certain JAA/EASA US based flight schools in the past, hence their generally poor reputation. He left out visa shenanigans and shockingly poor maintenance which also feature(d). It is certainly true that there are ATOs in the US that I would not do business with under any circumstances because of the damage to reputation that would inevitably follow.
I have personally worked for a company where the root cause of all the shenanigans was the Director of Operations.
Unless people in leadership positions have been replaced what once was...will still be.
As far as what I would recommend Matt;
Do an extended search on this forum.
Even when you find a thread from 7-8 years ago it can still be useful as some people may still be a member here.
Click on their username, click on their 'stats' and see when they posted on this forum last.
If that was within the last couple for months it is very likely they are still a member here.
Send them a PM and ask for their experiences in private.
You may hear more then can ever be posted on a public forum.
My offers till stands, send me a PM and we can call/Skype/Facetime.
I'll extend that invitation also to the ones that foot the bill, your parents.
I have no connection to any training provider but have extensive prior experience in the flight training industry.
Like everybody I've moved on in my career and now flying something pretty fast that Mr Boeing built.
Now to credit my primary flight training provider for that is ludicrous.
That is nothing more then synchronicity.
Unless the school is the one that is integrated with an employer the ones that claim their successes should also claim their losses.
A website should read " some of our former students have made it to the following airlines after they've left us and pursued their careers" rather then
" our students fly at XYZ because they chose to do their PPL with us " as that would be a blatant marketing lie.
Last edited by B2N2; 21st May 2017 at 02:28.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
I'd never really considered the benefits of Canada before.
But looking at the Harv's Air web site, I'm rather impressed.
Mainly because of the exchange rate.
It would be tough paying for American schools with Pounds Sterling at 1.25 exchange rate.
But there are other reasons, like the hard time the US gov't give students.
B2N2 wrote a great piece about what it wrong with US flight schools.
But whats wrong with US flight schools is also whats right with America.
It's very dynamic, and in a constant state of flux.
I only spent three month as an instructor in the early 1980s.
Then I got a job on a Lear Jet.
American instructors don't stick around.
Expect to be dropped by them half way thru any course.
That's why some people are promoting F-1 visas for flight instructors.
I think it's a great idea.
But I would want an American wife and a green card out of it too.
That's why Skywest Airlines is trying to import pilots.
Ah Ha, your trapped without a degree.
Things happen in America.
Canada may be a lot more stable.
My guess is the quality of the instruction would be very good, eh.
Harv's Air rates are.
Cessna 152
Can$193 dual (US$142)
Can$135 solo (US$99)
Cessna 172
Can$ 238 dual (US$176)
Can$158 solo (US$116)
Seminole
Can$380 dual (US$231)
I had to fly a trip to Calgary last January.
It was -22c.
I have a question about Canada.
You can get a Canadian PPL at age 16?
I take it you just have to take the FAA PPL written exam to be granted a FAA PPL once you are 17 years old?.
Is this correct?
I may send child number two to Winnipeg, North Nebraska at age 16.
But looking at the Harv's Air web site, I'm rather impressed.
Mainly because of the exchange rate.
It would be tough paying for American schools with Pounds Sterling at 1.25 exchange rate.
But there are other reasons, like the hard time the US gov't give students.
B2N2 wrote a great piece about what it wrong with US flight schools.
But whats wrong with US flight schools is also whats right with America.
It's very dynamic, and in a constant state of flux.
I only spent three month as an instructor in the early 1980s.
Then I got a job on a Lear Jet.
American instructors don't stick around.
Expect to be dropped by them half way thru any course.
That's why some people are promoting F-1 visas for flight instructors.
I think it's a great idea.
But I would want an American wife and a green card out of it too.
That's why Skywest Airlines is trying to import pilots.
Ah Ha, your trapped without a degree.
Things happen in America.
Canada may be a lot more stable.
My guess is the quality of the instruction would be very good, eh.
Harv's Air rates are.
Cessna 152
Can$193 dual (US$142)
Can$135 solo (US$99)
Cessna 172
Can$ 238 dual (US$176)
Can$158 solo (US$116)
Seminole
Can$380 dual (US$231)
I had to fly a trip to Calgary last January.
It was -22c.
I have a question about Canada.
You can get a Canadian PPL at age 16?
I take it you just have to take the FAA PPL written exam to be granted a FAA PPL once you are 17 years old?.
Is this correct?
I may send child number two to Winnipeg, North Nebraska at age 16.
Last edited by button push ignored; 20th May 2017 at 22:23.
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,759
Likes: 424
From: GA, USA
a great piece about what it wrong with some US flight schools.
I only spent three month as an instructor in the early 1980s.
Then I got a job on a Lear Jet.
Then I got a job on a Lear Jet.
.....I would still advocate the F-1 route as you'll head bag to Europa-land with at least some flight time under your belt.
And there is no substitute for experience.