Type ratings in the US - foreign citizen
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THis is the form to do any initial training based on a foreign pilot's license (converting to FAA). To do training on heavy a/c (>12500lbs) is an entirely different procedure. Your company has to contact the US DOJ for procedures. (Dept. Of Justice)
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Here is a bit more info from the AOPA site:
“The new rule requires every school and every freelance flight instructor to register with TSA. It puts the onus on the flight school and individual flight instructors to determine if a flight student is a foreign national. If so, the school or flight instructor must notify TSA that a non-U.S. citizen has requested flight training.
For a foreign national to receive training in an aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds, the school or flight instructor must send TSA a photo of the student after he or she first arrives for training. The student has to send TSA passport and visa data, fingerprints, and training details, among other things. In an illustration of the confusion over the rule, the student also must supply a "unique identification number assigned by TSA." TSA will charge the student $130 to process the application.
Training in aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds can start without TSA approval, as long as TSA has been notified and sent the applicant's information. Of course, if TSA determines the student is a threat, training must stop.
The rules requires that schools or flight instructors retain applicant information and TSA approval records for five years, and the records are subject to TSA audit.
awareness training program" for each flight school or independent flight instructor, regardless of whether they are training foreign students. Schools must maintain a record of such training for one year after the employee leaves the school. It doesn't say how long independent instructors have to keep records of their security training. Again, these records are subject to TSA and FAA audit.
Flight schools and instructors have to comply with the new rule starting October 5 for training in large aircraft, October 20 for training in aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds.”
“The new rule requires every school and every freelance flight instructor to register with TSA. It puts the onus on the flight school and individual flight instructors to determine if a flight student is a foreign national. If so, the school or flight instructor must notify TSA that a non-U.S. citizen has requested flight training.
For a foreign national to receive training in an aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds, the school or flight instructor must send TSA a photo of the student after he or she first arrives for training. The student has to send TSA passport and visa data, fingerprints, and training details, among other things. In an illustration of the confusion over the rule, the student also must supply a "unique identification number assigned by TSA." TSA will charge the student $130 to process the application.
Training in aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds can start without TSA approval, as long as TSA has been notified and sent the applicant's information. Of course, if TSA determines the student is a threat, training must stop.
The rules requires that schools or flight instructors retain applicant information and TSA approval records for five years, and the records are subject to TSA audit.
awareness training program" for each flight school or independent flight instructor, regardless of whether they are training foreign students. Schools must maintain a record of such training for one year after the employee leaves the school. It doesn't say how long independent instructors have to keep records of their security training. Again, these records are subject to TSA and FAA audit.
Flight schools and instructors have to comply with the new rule starting October 5 for training in large aircraft, October 20 for training in aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds.”
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Isn't this a case of the left hand not talking to the right? Wouldn't "foreign" students already have gone through background checks (including visits to the US Embassy in their home country) prior to getting their visas to train in the US anyway? Seems just a revenue earning exercise.
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Lets read carefully now
After a comprehensive review, AOPA is raising concerns that the Transportation Security Administration's "alien training" rule .MAY hit every U.S. pilot, flight instructor, and flight school. Unless TSA clarifies that U.S. citizens are exempt, AOPA believes the rule could be interpreted to mean that, starting next month, they would not be able to complete flight training — including flight reviews — without first going through some type of TSA check
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the last paragraph sums it all up....
TSA is requiring all flight instructors and flight schools to register through their local flight standards district office (FSDO). But TSA apparently hasn't yet coordinated that with the FAA.
"We don't think TSA appreciates the enormity of that task, particularly with the very short time frame," said Boyer. "There are more than 86,000 flight instructors in the U.S."
Instructors and schools also have to undergo TSA-approved recurrent "security awareness" training and maintain documentation of that training. And all required documentation is subject to TSA audit. (See "TSA issues alien training rule.")
"We'll continue to work with TSA to ensure that the rule does not apply to U.S. citizens," said Boyer.
Shall we place bets that it doesnt come into effect in its current form????
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......
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the last paragraph sums it all up....
TSA is requiring all flight instructors and flight schools to register through their local flight standards district office (FSDO). But TSA apparently hasn't yet coordinated that with the FAA.
"We don't think TSA appreciates the enormity of that task, particularly with the very short time frame," said Boyer. "There are more than 86,000 flight instructors in the U.S."
Instructors and schools also have to undergo TSA-approved recurrent "security awareness" training and maintain documentation of that training. And all required documentation is subject to TSA audit. (See "TSA issues alien training rule.")
"We'll continue to work with TSA to ensure that the rule does not apply to U.S. citizens," said Boyer.
Shall we place bets that it doesnt come into effect in its current form????
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Latest update from AOPA (USA):
AOPA President Phil Boyer has gone straight to the top to stop implementation of the Transportation Security Administration's "alien" flight-training rule.
"In my almost three years of working with TSA, I have never seen such an impractical idea," Boyer told TSA chief Adm. David Stone Thursday morning. "I implore you to delay implementation of this rule to give us the opportunity to work with you to bring sanity to it and help you accomplish your security goals."
The phone call prompted an unscheduled meeting between AOPA Senior Vice President of Government and Technical Affairs Andy Cebula, AOPA General Counsel John Yodice, and senior TSA policy officials.
AOPA has already filed a formal petition to suspend the October compliance date for training in aircraft weighing 12,500 pounds or less (see "AOPA petitions to suspend parts of TSA alien training rule"), while Yodice has submitted a five-page letter to TSA's chief counsel seeking clarification and explanations and justifications for the rule's specifics.
"Frankly, I don't believe that TSA understands the flight training industry for small general aviation aircraft, and particularly independent, freelance flight instructors," said Boyer. "What might work for training in aircraft over 12,500 pounds doesn't work for the majority of the GA fleet. One size doesn't fit all."
The rule directly affects more than 650,000 U.S.-certificated pilots, 85,000 resident aliens with U.S. pilot certificates, 93,700 flight students, 88,700 flight instructors, and some 3,400 flight schools.
As currently written, the rule requires every student and certificated pilot to prove his or her citizenship status prior to taking any kind of flight training, including flight reviews. Flight instructors are required to keep copies of pilots' personal information (which could include social security cards, birth certificates, or passports) for five years.
"Many pilots consider this an insult. Our members are incensed about the privacy aspects of this rule," said Boyer. "Many have told us that requiring flight instructors to maintain permanent files filled with personal pilot information is not only inappropriate, it would have a chilling effect on people seeking flight training.
AOPA President Phil Boyer has gone straight to the top to stop implementation of the Transportation Security Administration's "alien" flight-training rule.
"In my almost three years of working with TSA, I have never seen such an impractical idea," Boyer told TSA chief Adm. David Stone Thursday morning. "I implore you to delay implementation of this rule to give us the opportunity to work with you to bring sanity to it and help you accomplish your security goals."
The phone call prompted an unscheduled meeting between AOPA Senior Vice President of Government and Technical Affairs Andy Cebula, AOPA General Counsel John Yodice, and senior TSA policy officials.
AOPA has already filed a formal petition to suspend the October compliance date for training in aircraft weighing 12,500 pounds or less (see "AOPA petitions to suspend parts of TSA alien training rule"), while Yodice has submitted a five-page letter to TSA's chief counsel seeking clarification and explanations and justifications for the rule's specifics.
"Frankly, I don't believe that TSA understands the flight training industry for small general aviation aircraft, and particularly independent, freelance flight instructors," said Boyer. "What might work for training in aircraft over 12,500 pounds doesn't work for the majority of the GA fleet. One size doesn't fit all."
The rule directly affects more than 650,000 U.S.-certificated pilots, 85,000 resident aliens with U.S. pilot certificates, 93,700 flight students, 88,700 flight instructors, and some 3,400 flight schools.
As currently written, the rule requires every student and certificated pilot to prove his or her citizenship status prior to taking any kind of flight training, including flight reviews. Flight instructors are required to keep copies of pilots' personal information (which could include social security cards, birth certificates, or passports) for five years.
"Many pilots consider this an insult. Our members are incensed about the privacy aspects of this rule," said Boyer. "Many have told us that requiring flight instructors to maintain permanent files filled with personal pilot information is not only inappropriate, it would have a chilling effect on people seeking flight training.
TSA rules for Foreign students
At the risk of flogging a dead horse...
As far as I know these are the latest rulings:
Visa Procedures
How do you obtain a Student Visa?
You will request from your school a I-20 form, that they will prepare and send to you. At that time you will be required to pay $100.00 for the issuance of the I-20. You can pay online at www.fmjfee.com
You will then need to make an appointment at the US Embassy and take the I-20 form and proof of payment for approval. At that time they will take your picture for their records.
Alien Flight Training Rules
With the new rules in place from the TSA (Transportation Security Administration), schools must follow more stricter rules and guidelines in order to ensure everyones safety.
To whom TSA rules apply:
All aliens/foreigners who apply for training.
Now, what is considered "training"?
What is training? – training that a candidate could use toward a new airman certificate or rating. These rules do not apply for US citizens. Therefore the flight school has to obtain proof of US citizenship (U.S. birth certificate or U.S. passport)
Until December 19th 2004 all aliens/foreigners are exempt who:
* currently hold a FAA airman certificate
currently hold a certificate of a foreign national authority that is recognized by the FAA
* There is no change for aliens/foreigners or U.S. citizens if they seek recurrent training.
So, NO backgroundcheck is required if you come to the USA for:
* BFR (Biennial Flight Review)
* IPC (Instrument Proficiency Check)
* Rental checkout
* Aircraft rental
* Hour building
Upon arrival at the flight school
Upon arrival to the school you will need to have your picture taken, you must register online at the school. You will need to be fingerprinted by the local sheriff on site at the airport for the completion of this investigation. There may or may not be a charge for the fingerprinting depending on location. The fingerprints only need to be done once for them to confirm your identity.
Items needed for background check
In order to complete the background process there is a fee of $130.00 that will be paid at the school to the TSA. You will need to have your Visa, Passport, addresses for the last 5 years along with phone numbers.
You also need to have an email address so that TSA can email the password for you to access the site. If you do not have one, anybody can help you set up a free account.
Further info on:
http://www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/
and
https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/
Hope this clarifies it some.
PM or email for more info....
As far as I know these are the latest rulings:
Visa Procedures
How do you obtain a Student Visa?
You will request from your school a I-20 form, that they will prepare and send to you. At that time you will be required to pay $100.00 for the issuance of the I-20. You can pay online at www.fmjfee.com
You will then need to make an appointment at the US Embassy and take the I-20 form and proof of payment for approval. At that time they will take your picture for their records.
Alien Flight Training Rules
With the new rules in place from the TSA (Transportation Security Administration), schools must follow more stricter rules and guidelines in order to ensure everyones safety.
To whom TSA rules apply:
All aliens/foreigners who apply for training.
Now, what is considered "training"?
What is training? – training that a candidate could use toward a new airman certificate or rating. These rules do not apply for US citizens. Therefore the flight school has to obtain proof of US citizenship (U.S. birth certificate or U.S. passport)
Until December 19th 2004 all aliens/foreigners are exempt who:
* currently hold a FAA airman certificate
currently hold a certificate of a foreign national authority that is recognized by the FAA
* There is no change for aliens/foreigners or U.S. citizens if they seek recurrent training.
So, NO backgroundcheck is required if you come to the USA for:
* BFR (Biennial Flight Review)
* IPC (Instrument Proficiency Check)
* Rental checkout
* Aircraft rental
* Hour building
Upon arrival at the flight school
Upon arrival to the school you will need to have your picture taken, you must register online at the school. You will need to be fingerprinted by the local sheriff on site at the airport for the completion of this investigation. There may or may not be a charge for the fingerprinting depending on location. The fingerprints only need to be done once for them to confirm your identity.
Items needed for background check
In order to complete the background process there is a fee of $130.00 that will be paid at the school to the TSA. You will need to have your Visa, Passport, addresses for the last 5 years along with phone numbers.
You also need to have an email address so that TSA can email the password for you to access the site. If you do not have one, anybody can help you set up a free account.
Further info on:
http://www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/
and
https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/
Hope this clarifies it some.
PM or email for more info....
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I'm glad to see that the US establish procedures which are in the favour of the European training industry! When are we supposed to start taking fingerprints from US citizens that want to enter the EU?
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Getting at their own citizens too!
Don't worry Martin 1234, it is not just the Europeans that are getting checked out......in the US now, due to the TSA ruling, all US citizens have to provide proof of citizenship before renting/training.
US Pilots are not too happy with the situation either. One pilot came in today, when asked for a copy of his birth certificate/passport told me that he would go back to another airfield 10 miles away that did not require this information! I then suggested to him that shooting the school trying to do it right and going to a school that does not really makes the whole system even worse.
In hindsight, as long as we all do what we need to now I feel that APOA will soon weigh in with a simpler solution in the (hopefully) not too distance future.
US Pilots are not too happy with the situation either. One pilot came in today, when asked for a copy of his birth certificate/passport told me that he would go back to another airfield 10 miles away that did not require this information! I then suggested to him that shooting the school trying to do it right and going to a school that does not really makes the whole system even worse.
In hindsight, as long as we all do what we need to now I feel that APOA will soon weigh in with a simpler solution in the (hopefully) not too distance future.
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Well, the "TSA rules" only apply to US citizens in order to establish that they really are US citizens and need not to go through the process B2N2 posted. I know you represent a school with lots of students from Europe, but saying that the regulation is "getting at their own citizens too", isn't that a little naive?
I know that you might be opposed to this regulation, but as a European I think that there should be some sort of mutuality. It's pretty steep if a student is going to the US to commence training at a school registered under the UK CAA, getting fingerprinted and all that.. just to risk being thrown out of the country without reason half-way through training.
I know that you might be opposed to this regulation, but as a European I think that there should be some sort of mutuality. It's pretty steep if a student is going to the US to commence training at a school registered under the UK CAA, getting fingerprinted and all that.. just to risk being thrown out of the country without reason half-way through training.
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Martin 1234
All I am saying is that it is getting their own citizens rallied up having to prove their own citizenship in their own country. Would you not think that you were being scrutinized if you had to prove your citizenship when visiting your local flying club?
As for being thrown out half way through......as long as you are the person that turned up and all the info is basically the same as on the visa application then there is no problem. Some questions requiring dates even have a box to tick whether this is an exact answer or approximate.
Is the system a pain and over the top - Yes
Does it make more work for everyone - Yes
The only students/renters that are really affected are the ones training towards a licence....they have to spend 15-20 mins filling out a web site form and paying $130.00. We have been completing the process for the past 3 weeks at the school and it is running smoothly. For those that have been applying since the law we have been having them fill out the form after giving instructions in their enrollment; there have been no problems as it is more or less the same info as the immigration forms.
Once completed, our students visit the local sherrifs aviation dept on the field for another 20 mins for fingerprinting.
As for renters, they are exempt all of this - the school just completes 2 minute form on line about them.
I can say that laying the process out in a strightforward manner has not deterred any people from my personal view of enrolling candidates in the last 3 weeks.
As for being thrown out half way through......as long as you are the person that turned up and all the info is basically the same as on the visa application then there is no problem. Some questions requiring dates even have a box to tick whether this is an exact answer or approximate.
Is the system a pain and over the top - Yes
Does it make more work for everyone - Yes
The only students/renters that are really affected are the ones training towards a licence....they have to spend 15-20 mins filling out a web site form and paying $130.00. We have been completing the process for the past 3 weeks at the school and it is running smoothly. For those that have been applying since the law we have been having them fill out the form after giving instructions in their enrollment; there have been no problems as it is more or less the same info as the immigration forms.
Once completed, our students visit the local sherrifs aviation dept on the field for another 20 mins for fingerprinting.
As for renters, they are exempt all of this - the school just completes 2 minute form on line about them.
I can say that laying the process out in a strightforward manner has not deterred any people from my personal view of enrolling candidates in the last 3 weeks.
It's not as tricky as it seems, it is pretty much a paperwork excersise. No different then anything else in that regard.
Put up the original post to (maybe) clarify the issue.
Wether it is right or wrong, usefull or totally useless..well, I leave that in the middle for now.
The main thing is that it is not as draconian as it seemed in the beginning.
Put up the original post to (maybe) clarify the issue.
Wether it is right or wrong, usefull or totally useless..well, I leave that in the middle for now.
The main thing is that it is not as draconian as it seemed in the beginning.
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But for those simply wanting PPL training, the real issue is that only M1 issuing schools can provide the visa form and therefore the training - thereby locking out all the smaller US schools from providing the "first rung on the ladder" training.
Good news for the big schools, income stream lost for the small ones.
Good news for the big schools, income stream lost for the small ones.
Well One bounce,
That has been the case ever since 9-11.
Before no visa was required for PPl training.
They changed that pretty soon afterward.
All in all about 275-300 schools went bancrupt as a straight result of 9-11.
However, I think the surviving "small"
schools are doing pretty well right now with the uplift in aviation in the US
That has been the case ever since 9-11.
Before no visa was required for PPl training.
They changed that pretty soon afterward.
All in all about 275-300 schools went bancrupt as a straight result of 9-11.
However, I think the surviving "small"
schools are doing pretty well right now with the uplift in aviation in the US
Join Date: Oct 2003
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What should I do?
Having lived in a bubble for the past couple of months. OK - so in reality I've been out of the country (UK) and having moved house and not had internet connection for some time.
I have a couple of questions, if anyone can help me (background first):
- I travel to the US on Jan 2nd to commence CPL training on Jan 10th.
- I already have an M1 Visa (issued on Oct 18th)
- I have an FAA Airmans Certificate (based on my UK PPL), issued several years ago.
So it seems from December 19th I will need to comply with these new TSA rules.
- Should I complete the on-line registration in the UK (on/after 19th December)? Or MUST this be done at the school? I am concerned that I may not have all the necessary detailed history information at my fingertips when I am out of the UK.
- I understand applicants can only have their fingerprints done in the US. So I assume this part will have to wait until I arrive. It appears that it is taking some 2-3 weeks to "process" the application once the fingerprints are received. How will this impact my CPL training that starts on Jan 10th?
I appreciate any assistance fellow ppruner's can provide me.
Thanks (and happy christmas)
bumpfich
I have a couple of questions, if anyone can help me (background first):
- I travel to the US on Jan 2nd to commence CPL training on Jan 10th.
- I already have an M1 Visa (issued on Oct 18th)
- I have an FAA Airmans Certificate (based on my UK PPL), issued several years ago.
So it seems from December 19th I will need to comply with these new TSA rules.
- Should I complete the on-line registration in the UK (on/after 19th December)? Or MUST this be done at the school? I am concerned that I may not have all the necessary detailed history information at my fingertips when I am out of the UK.
- I understand applicants can only have their fingerprints done in the US. So I assume this part will have to wait until I arrive. It appears that it is taking some 2-3 weeks to "process" the application once the fingerprints are received. How will this impact my CPL training that starts on Jan 10th?
I appreciate any assistance fellow ppruner's can provide me.
Thanks (and happy christmas)
bumpfich
The Oracle
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bumpfich,
You can register online while in the UK or when you arrive in the US, but we recommend registering before coming over to the US.
You can get more details in this thread:
TSA Training Rule
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
You can register online while in the UK or when you arrive in the US, but we recommend registering before coming over to the US.
You can get more details in this thread:
TSA Training Rule
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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bumpfich,
The TSA business is far less painful than you might imagine. You might as well register on the TSA website and do as much as you can now (the first step involves the information that you mention) and get it out of the way; the only hassle is that you'll need to scan or fax your passport and visa. Once the first step is out of the way, it all runs quickly and smoothly.
Since you're going to Naples, I can let you know my experience there: everyone is flexible and accommodating with the TSA arrangements there, so it won't hold up your training at all. In particular, the local deputy sheriff who does the fingerprinting (for free I might add) is a nice bloke. So don't worry, get out there and do your flying!!!!
Cheerio, dpm
The TSA business is far less painful than you might imagine. You might as well register on the TSA website and do as much as you can now (the first step involves the information that you mention) and get it out of the way; the only hassle is that you'll need to scan or fax your passport and visa. Once the first step is out of the way, it all runs quickly and smoothly.
Since you're going to Naples, I can let you know my experience there: everyone is flexible and accommodating with the TSA arrangements there, so it won't hold up your training at all. In particular, the local deputy sheriff who does the fingerprinting (for free I might add) is a nice bloke. So don't worry, get out there and do your flying!!!!
Cheerio, dpm
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Thank You
Thank you to Richard and dpm for your replies. This TSA requirement does at first seem to be incredibly painful. But I'm glad to hear that it is anything but (with the exception of releiving me of more $$$).
I will get on and apply now!
It seems because I applied for the CPL course in September - I did not receive the info that later applicants did about this TSA requirement.
Cheers
Bumpfich
I will get on and apply now!
It seems because I applied for the CPL course in September - I did not receive the info that later applicants did about this TSA requirement.
Cheers
Bumpfich