CAA - Nothing for your Money

[Tinker]

Another outburst from the 'committee' ???

[nonradio]

wow! Some heartfelt comments there!
I think that you will find that FAA comes under as much fire from the US flying fraternity as the UK CAA and the Austrians would kill for a CAA like ours, so can it all be explained away by' the grass is greener'? WWW makes some good points, things are better, no doubt about that, however I think it is possible to hold the position that our CAA is a bureaucratic (in the proper sense of the word) unaccountable organisation that is not set up in a way that 'promotes' aviation at the GA level (ie everything else after scheduled airlines) but merely to 'regulate' that is to say ensure 'safety' standards are met (And a bit of economic regulation on the side). The trouble is They also set the standards; so if imagine if you will, a regulator who had the choice of pushing for absolute safety and who wasn't paying, indeed had no real interest in the cost of compliance, and anyway it all seemed a jolly good idea sitting with a coffee in front of the computer terminal, with probably no experience of the real world, what do you think he'll do? He's gonna spend your money. Not forgetting the organisation has a monopoly, you don't have a choice and its income derives solely from the industry it regulates coming , of course, from the charges made whilst doing that regulating. So where are the checks and balances that stop the whole thing spiralling out of control, costwise?
Combine that with a natural British sense of superiority which pushes 'standards' sky high eg vision requirements, licensed fields for training, OPC and Line checks for freelance commercial pilots for each and every company he may fly for etcetc and it all gets very serious and expensive.

Almost every CAA employee I have met or had dealings with has been (genuinely)utterly helpful and charming, but pretty much all were completely oblivious to the harsh economic realities outside, very concerned about the 'system' whilst IMHO being a little blinkered about why we're doing all this in the first place.

I really do think that we didn't get to the moon first, break the sound barrier etc, that most of us fly US machinery, talk on US radio and navigate(aparently) with a US GPS etc etc because of this fundamental difference in attitude

Anyway if you've read this far, congratulations

[Chris Wannabe]

I have had 3 "experiences" so far of the CAA.

1) Class 1 Medical Issue - took 3/4 weeks to issue and that was a result of me chasing them daily

2) PPL issue - again a backlog. It took 5 weeks to come. After paying 150 quid I expected better service. Surely its just a checklist of correct items isn't it?

3) JAA ATPL exams - relieved me of 400 quid, with no confirmation for 4 weeks. How can you confidently book accomodation if they reserve the right to change your venue?

Bottom Line - Either resource to meet an appropriate level of customer service with the current process and procedure or change the process to speed things up with the existing resource.

As stated earlier the staff who I have spoken to have been excellant.

[Megaton]

Quality of training material from some schools is as high as ever but this thread is titled "CAA - Nothing for your money." The CAA have nothing to do whatsoever with the quality of training material from schools such as Bristol. Indeed, it's a dangerous argument to follow since the CAA approved all the schools that went bust taking with them all the students' money. granted, they never claimed to test the financial credibility of these organizations but they didn't do much to help the students when the schools went under. I've just received my credit card statement showing my CPL flight test. Rather than face reality, I'm in denial over how much the CAA charge for flight tests, licence issue, medicals.

Church fetes have websites these days so saying the CAA is better than ever because they have a www address is specious.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Do the CAA actually have a remit to promote GA? Genuine question.

I agree that they are not perfect. If this forum provides a valve for letting off steam against them then so be it. I have done so in my time here...

I would caution though that if you ever have any dealings with the people there in the future you are likely to find them a bunch of pretty clued up professionals who are very pro-aviation.

Dissapointing I know

WWW

[Evo7]

Bl**dy hell, old age is calming you down WWW ...

[nonradio]

WWW- exactly my point, they do not have a remit to promote, only regulate . The FAA is required, note, to promote aviation!!

I must say that in my experience, notwithstanding my comments above, I would not say that they were as "clued up" as you might have expected or desired.Possibly this may have been due to all the umpteen regulatory changes we've had recently (whose fault is that?) but a lot of it is due to folk being put in charge of sections they have no experience in: Ex-military/north sea pilots regulating on shore SE operations; Ex-military catA1 instructors who have never taught in a civil environment in charge of flight instructor and FTO/RF regulation; Heavy jet engineeers put in charge of light aircraft regulation " I'm sorry I've only got experience on large aircraft.." etc etc With the best will in the world sometimes they really haven't got a clue!! As I've said before some have been bloody good types, though.

[slim_slag]

www

You can have the FAA if you want. Just accept that you will spend the first decade of your careers hauling bank cheques, night frieght etc

Lots of people (like 500,000 pilots in the US) are extremely grateful the FAA are regulating them. Nothing wrong with those jobs either, some people love them. Flying passengers, YAWN. Flying freight in Caravans in the Rockies at night in Winter is far better experience than you will get in most (if not all) short haul jobs in Europe. NIght flying jobs at UPS/FedEx are very sought after and very well paid

You obviously don't understand the US, you really should go there, hang out at a flourishing GA airport and talk to some pilots. Did you follow my recent advice, go to California and rent a plane for a few days then drive the PCH? You would have a blast, and going from the stuff you post on here, unpleasantly surprised.

and you simply WON'T be getting twice the national wage on a jet with 500hrs TT as some do under JAA.

Quite right too. They require far more experience in the US before you can get those jobs which pay a lot more than twice the US average wage. They also come far sooner than a decade, but I don't think you don't understand the US or the flying there.

So 500 hour TT pilots earn £40-50k per year in the UK???

nonradio

I think that you will find that FAA comes under as much fire from the US flying fraternity as the UK CAA and the Austrians would kill for a CAA like ours,

Americans hate all Federal government agencies, it's a national pastime, but Americans pilots are also very grateful that they do not live in Europe with their "repressive" regulatory regimes. I would agree that the UK CAA is far superior to other European agencies, but it is also far inferior to the FAA. The UK CAA is pro commercial aviation.

The head of CAA FCL should be sacked for his appaling attitude to the customer. I had to deal with them once, asking for information not available elsewhere.I was totally unimpressed by the whole experience and never did get an answer. Dealing with the FAA is a delight, never had a complaint, they are incredibly helpful and proactive.

Wibbly P

Why don't the rest of you p*ss of to the US and marry the bl**dy FAA if it's that 'darn' fantastic. Why do you wan't to live in this rainy little miserable country anyway!

Lots of people do "p*ss" off to the USA for their training. Lots of people fly in the UK on their FAA certificate because it gives them what they want without the CAA regulatory overhead. Lots of people would like to leave the UK because its rainy and miserable. Look like you are getting what you ask for, so rare nowadays eh?

When you come back don't forget to tell us how cheap the Levi 501's are.

Levi 501's are around $35 + tax nowadays, though you can probably get them for $30 if you shop around.

Thought you'd like to know.

They would be cheaper in the UK except the UK courts forbad UK shops to sell them at such low prices. Such a wonderful country eh? Such great respect by The Establishment (e.g CAA/High Court) for the average "man in the street" consumer! Miserable and rainy too!!!!

whilst you fly cowboy style instrument approaches into Heathrow

Are you suggesting US carriers don't fly published IAPs into Heathrow? Surely not! I think you are somewhat mistaken there, and US flightcrew flying into Heathrow are going to be FAR FAR FAR more experienced than some of these JAA low timers (as described by your hero www). I am sure fatigue from trans-Atlantic flights arriving early in the morning cannot help, but is there a significant difference between US and UK pilots arriving from the US and flying the same IAP??? You brought it up, you should now answer.

Anyway, if they got into trouble they could just turn on their US manufactured autopilots in their US manufactured planes (like what the UK airlines fly a lot of) and things would be hunky dory

Make the UK a FAA region I say!

[BEagle]

I needed to clarify a point in LASORS yesterday, so rang the Belgrano. First call started with the dreaded "If you want indifference, press 1. If you want help, $od off" style menu. Got through to the PLD menu - listened to the "We can't be ar$ed to answer the phone between 1200 and 1400 as we're far too busy having lunch" message, then another menu selection. Pressed the right option and was told "All our agents are busy. Please try later. CLICK,...brrrrrrrr". BUG.GER!! So I ring the switchboard, very polite young lady attempts to put me through to the correct extension - it's a voice mail box. The phone diverts back to here and she tries someone else. He answers, we chat amiably then he puts me on to someone else who tells me that there's been a recent policy change - and gives the answer, but also agrees that LASORS are vague on the point about which I needed clarification...

So, my summation:

1. Ron Elder's outburst is inexcusable. He is no longer an Air Marshal, he is an unelected public servant with a duty to his customers.

2. The phone menu system does not help much.

3. Human operators are so much more efficient and helpful.

4. 2 hours for lunch? You have GOT to be taking the pi$$...

5. LASORS was published with some errors and is not yet complete. So don't be surprised to receive queries from the public!

6. DON'T CHANGE POLICY WITHOUT TELLING INDUSTRY FIRST!! We the Examiners might be good at what we do, we even try to help by answering queries, but we are NOT clairvoyant.

[nonradio]

slim-slag, I was making the point that just because people complain a lot about an organisation we should not judge it on that basis alone... I think anybody who has been to the USA and flown could not help but be impressed and then rather disappointed that the system couldn't be brought home!
The issue goes beyond cost (although cost is a major indicator that the UK has got it wrong) it's about attitude and how the CAA is (often) civil servant heaven staffed by a lot of ex-mil types supplementing their pension etcetc
Just remember that any critisism of the US can often have it's roots in plain ol' ENVY. (Except that US forces do tend to bomb their allies a little more often than is ideal). What cannot be denied is that the USA allows for a lot more opportunities, not only in aviation, than dear old Blighty...something to do with freedom, isn't it?

[Whirlybird]

If you have the extension number and can get through immediately to a Real Person the CAA can be quite helpful. If you have something simple e-mail can work. Otherwise...BEagle's post just about sums it up.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Slim-Slag. As a British citizen I cannot live and work in the USA as a pilot. So it has never been an option to be regulated by the FAA. Neither would it have saved me any money to conduct any part of my training there.

Hence I have never flown stateside.

I am positive that GA there is brilliant for many reasons of which FAA regulation plays a small part.

On my substantive point about a more rapid career progression under JAA you surely must concede. It is entirely possible for people to spend circa £40,000/12 months and then apply to large jet operators in the UK with a reasonable expectation of an interview.

I personally know of dozens and dozens of people with 200hrs who have jumped straight into an Aer Lingus, Airtours or BA jet airliner the month after they finished training. All of those didn't have to pay for their training - remind me of which US airlines under FAA regulation sponsor cadet pilots? Ah, none.

Then there are the numerous self sponsored students I have taught who are now flying in airline ops. Most start on a little over £30k and move up to £40k within a year or two - twice the UK national average male wage.

Of course during the current crisis all this has stopped.

But then the EU airline industry has not furloughed thousands and thousands of pilots so things are nowhere near as bad as in the US.

Happy flying Stateside.

WWW

[Send Clowns]

WWW the state of US employment is not caused by problems in FAA regulation. In fact it may be caused by the excess of pilots available from a reasonably possible GA. This is not hte case over here, the relative lack of pilots around is caused by the CAA's and national and local governments' obstruction of GA. This is only getting worse under JAA, with the exception of the NPPL.

It is true that the CAA is completely isolated and unaware. I have a friend who is a self-employed instructor/examiner, fully qualified (formerly a CAA examiner). Now the highly-placed CAA desk-jockey was astounded to be told in general conversation that my friend would have to spend over £2,000 each year keeping his licences and ratings current. This man assumed he would have a company aeroplane for free - i.e. that someone else would pay. It does not cross these peoples' minds when they set up charging structures that some of us actually have to pay those charges plus for aircraft hire at up to £300 per hour.

Needless to say the CAA bureaucrat had learnt to fly in the military, moved straight over to the CAA and had government pay his way to the civilian ratings. He had never had to pay anything to keep current in his life, and was completely unaware of the desperate feeling as the industry takes a downturn beneath you as you finish training, and suddenly you're in a low-paid job, scrabbling spending 20% of your gross income just to keep bare competence and currency so the airlines will consider employing you when the recovery starts.

[Wibbly P]

Slim_Slag

"Anyway, if they got into trouble they could just turn on their US manufactured autopilots in their US manufactured planes (like what the UK airlines fly a lot of) and things would be hunky dory"

Unless one of the US supplied bogus parts which slipped unnoticed through the US 'regulations' failed. Wouldn't be so Hunky Dory then would it.

[nonradio]

This is categorically not a critism or a knock or a dig, honest
WWW: I suspect the state paid for a sustantial portion of your early training, which is smashing. Many people have gone to the US to hours build etc because it was the only way they could afford it, don't knock it until you've tried it ( I think your eyes would be opened to the possibilities....)
W-P: ditto. I don't believe you've been to the US, either. Honestly, there IS another world out there beyond our coastline...

[gorky]

Honestly, there IS another world out there beyond our coastline...


that's right, there is a wonderful country called France with a lot of great guys working for the DGAC and they are waiting for you cuz they need pilots.

[slim_slag]

www

I think your post was full of 'substantive' stuff, but you choose to dwell on the career prospects, which is quite appropriate for this forum.

You have moved from getting twice the national wage on a jet with 500hrs TT

to

Most start on a little over £30k and move up to £40k within a year or two - twice the UK national average male wage.

I think we need to remember females can fly planes too, but I will go with your revised criteria. Lets get some facts in here, the average male salary in the UK is around £25k.

So £30k (shall we say that is 500hrs mark) is 1.2 times national average. After one or two years (lets say 1400 to 2300 hrs TT) you would be on £40k, 1.6 national male average. You would need to tell me how many hours the average UK pilot has when he hits £50k, I don't know.

I would definitely say it's good money for an entry level position for which you only need A-levels and one year further education. You do have the overhead of repaying all that cash, so disposable income will take a hit in the early days, but the money is going to be excellent by the time you are in your thirties.

Yep, you will not fly a large passenger jet for the airlines in the US with 500 hrs inexperience. Some would say that is a good thing.

US majors do not need to spend money training cadets, a flourishing and sensibly regulated FAA GA system ensures a good supply of well trained candidates. US majors are even smarter, they let the commuter outfits train their jet pilots. By the time you are in the RHS of a 737 in the USA, you are an ATP and have already been calling the shots in the LHS of a turbo prop. That is extremely desirable. The money rises quickly then, and is better than an equivalent in the UK.

Maybe the real question is how many US/UK entry level pilots would move to the opposite side of the Atlantic. I think more UK wannabes would want to work in the US, than US wannabes want to work in the UK, but that is just a feeling. Ooo Err, I feel a poll coming on, .

As a British citizen I cannot live and work in the USA as a pilot. so it has never been an option to be regulated by the FAA.

Of course it's an option, this forum is full of Brits with only an FAA certificate. I'm one of them, not all of are solely interested in flying for an airline. Sure you cannot work in the US, but that's because there are plenty of wannabes with US citizenship. If there was a shortage of wannabes in the US, the airlines would quickly hire from Europe. There aren't so they don't. That's because regulation in the US is more sensible and accordingly there are more wannabes. You say regulatory differences play a small part, I think it's far larger than 'small'.

Neither would it have saved me any money to conduct any part of my training there.

Seems like that is changing, FAA IRs are now going to be worth something for the UK wannabe, and about time too.

Happy flying Stateside.

Thankyou! I enjoy flying in the UK too, but I am fortunate that the CAA is reasonable enough to accept an FAA certificate to fly day VFR. Not quite as reasonable as the FAA, but as day/VFR 'jollies' are all I want to do in the UK, I am happy there too.

Wibbly P

I don't know why you are beating up FAA certificated pilots and FAA certificated airplanes on safety grounds. The FAA system is certainly not less safe than the CAA/JAA system, and FAA standards are accepted by and are used as a model for the world. As an example, look at the integrated and extremely safe and efficient FAA ATC system, far better than the mess in Europe. I would never dream of flying from London to Paris now, total waste of my time, let the train take the strain. You never get those sort of delays flying LAX-SFO, a far busier route.

I am equally happy to fly a UK or US registered large transport jet, you obviously are not. I do think that FAA entry level jet pilots are far better trained than CAA entry level jet pilots, but statistically flying is so safe it doesn't matter. Inevitably a CAA jet will crash because the 200 hour boy wonder doesn't have the experience/balls to question his skipper, but you are still safer sitting behind these kids than on the drive to the airport. It's all risk/reward calculation. I don't beat up the CAA's regulation of commercial activity on safety grounds, but will post an opposing opinion when people here post who obviously don't know jack about the FAA system.

Sure, the whole yellow tag system is probably based upon too much trust, but the FAA recognises this and is making changes. I am sure that JAA planes are also flying with poorly documented parts, look at some of the countries in there! Even so, the human is more likely to fail than the machine.

nonradio

I agree with you, I was just adding what I think is clarification.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

FAA = No airline sponsorship.
FAA = No jet job with less than about 1,500hrs.
FAA = No CAP 371 style flight time limitations to work to.

All important issues for Wannabes just past training.

Couldn't agree more about US GA though and have said so time and again. Hour building in the USA makes sense for some and I have pointed people at that option many times over the years.

The new development of recognising FAA IR's with some provisos might change the balance a little.

WWW

[Wibbly P]

Dear Slimmy,

"The FAA system is certainly not less safe than the CAA/JAA system"

CERTAINLY? have you compared the flight safety stats for the UK and US?

"and FAA standards are accepted by and are used as a model for the world"

Yes even Russia looks to the FAA and says to itself, comrades look at the model the FAA has set... even we as a third world country have a safer track record.

"Inevitably a CAA jet will crash because the 200 hour boy wonder doesn't have the experience/balls to question his skipper"

Inevitably??? and what do you think MCC is all about? 1500 GA hours does not always maketh a good jet pilot don't you know.

"I am fortunate that the CAA is reasonable enough to accept an FAA certificate to fly day VFR. Not quite as reasonable as the FAA, but as day/VFR 'jollies' are all I want to do in the UK, I am happy there too. "

I think you'll find that it's more reasonable actually. If you read the appropriate parts of the ANO you would realise you are not restricted to day VFR if you hold an IR.

"I would never dream of flying from London to Paris now, total waste of my time, let the train take the strain. "

I agree, the train is also far more comfortable. Have you even seen our Train safety records?... oh actually I'd better not go there...

"I am sure that JAA planes are also flying with poorly documented parts, look at some of the countries in there!"

I am sure that you won't. The JAA doesn't stretch to the Peoples Republic of Lao or the US.

"Sure, the whole yellow tag system is probably based upon too much trust, but the FAA recognises this and is making changes. "

Or at least is 'seen' to be recognising this. When will these changes actually come? When the FAA becomes more of a regulator and less of a cuddly big brother.

"I don't know why you are beating up FAA certificated pilots and FAA certificated airplanes on safety grounds. "

I'm bored. (I love pilots, but I couldn't eat a whole one.)

[slim_slag]

www

FAA = No airline sponsorship.
FAA = No jet job with less than about 1,500hrs.

As gin slinger has already pointed out, "You're confusing employment market conditions with regulatory framework.".

And as I have already pointed out, if there was a shortage of wannabes in the US the airlines would either hire from abroad (and I bet there would be no shortage of CAA regulated pilots running over there) or start sponsorship. AFAIK, under FAA regs you can fly in the RHS of a 747 for an airline with a CP-AMEL, I'm not even sure you need a type rating but I might be wrong.

You can get an FAA CP-AMEL with 190 hours in a part 141 school. So its not a regulatory issue, you can do it in the US too. Stupid idea IMO, but possible.

So how many hours will your average UK wannabe be looking to have by the time he is earning twice the UK male national average? (thats £50k). You brought it up, I'm interested, and I am sure lots of wannabes are too.

Couldn't agree more about US GA though and have said so time and again.

I must have missed it

The new development of recognising FAA IR's with some provisos might change the balance a little.

Hopefully it's the first step towards recognising FAA ATPs too.

wibbly P, are you having fun Run along now......