CAA - Nothing for your Money
 

The UK CAA seems to have finally admitted that it is not in the business of providing a service to its customers.

In an article in the July issue of ‘International Flight Training’, Ron Elder, the head of personnel licensing in the CAA’s Safety Regulation Group loses his temper at those members of the aviation community who have the audacity to ring up his staff for information. To quote:

“I am thoroughly sick and tired of all these calls on the simplest of matters which are all established in the public domain…. We are swamped with these phone calls and Emails and it is getting worse by the day”.

The article goes on to say, “Mr Elder told IFTN that he has a team of three people permanently engaged on dealing with phone calls and Emails, and if it were not for sickness and other reasons it would probably really needed (sic) seven people to deal with them all” (whatever that means – are 57% of CAA staff on sick leave at any time?).

Elder then adds “I just don’t know why people need to call us on such simple matters. They have the website and there are many publications carrying the information. Why does anyone have to ring us to ask how to obtain a PPL? All they have to do is go to their nearest flying school or go down the library to get the information. It’s not as if the information is hard to come by”.

What an incredible show of arrogance, and proof of just how out of touch these self-important idiots really are. Whilst I can imagine that there are many nuisance calls, most enquiries would come from people who don’t regard their questions as being in any way trivial. If you were Joe Public and had no idea of the industry but wanted some impartial advice, who better to ring than the regulatory authority? Or would the local librarian suffice?

No doubt, working in personnel licensing must be a thankless task, but this supremely arrogant response to the ‘problem’ seems incredibly telling of the general attitude at the CAA when it comes to their clients. And no wonder it takes hours to get through – there are only 3 people answering the damn phonecalls.

I think this bloke is taking the p!ss

“I am thoroughly sick and tired of all these calls on the simplest of matters which are all established in the public domain…. We are swamped with these phone calls and Emails and it is getting worse by the day”.

If these matters were so simple how come whenever I phone or e-mail I never seem to get right answer first time.

''It’s not as if the information is hard to come by”.

It's only hard to come by if you contact the CAA for the information.

I saw that article too and was astonished by the comments.

Perhaps if some of the turgid CAA prose were written in clear English, things would be easier?

E.g - 'You will be credited exams in this, that and the other' - why not just tell people what they have to do, not what they don't have to do?

KISS - and that includes the CAA!!

I am always shocked at the indifference of the CAA to us, the paying public.

Contrast that with the FAA - does the same job as the CAA, but it's remit also includes the positive promotion of aviation.

Want to come fly in the US? No problem, we'll give you an FAA private ticket on the strength of your ICAO PPL for free.

Take a flight test with us? We'll charge you no more than a reasonable fee, then give you a temporary licence the moment you pass the test.

Groundschool? You'll need theoretical knowledge to keep you safe, but we won't make you jump through unnecessary hoops learning irrelevant information. The emphasis is very much on practical skills, i.e. actually flying the aeroplane properly.

When you get your licence, you can keep it for life, not 5 years.

Want to fly with the enhanced safety and convenience of IFR on your private licence? No problem, we have make it possible with a sensible training & licencing regime.

In the US, it's your right to fly, whereas in the UK it's still very much a privilege, and by god don't the CAA show it. :mad: :mad: :mad:

I tell you what Mr Elder, I'll stop phoning up your staff with 'stupid' questions, if you agree to stop fleecing me every time I have the temerity to ask for any CAA 'service' - deal?

I think this guy is right in as far as the first port of call for questions should be the flying schools, maybe this would reduce the work load and prevent the situation he describes.
Before I get shot down in flames though, there are often occasions when flying schools are unable to answer questions due to ambiguous literature and what appear to be ever changing goal posts.
Maybe the CAA could take a leaf out of the FAA's book and make regs and requirements clearer. Virtualy every time I have had an admin type problem in the US I have just asked the local flying school and they have been able to give me an answer (and on the one occasion they couldn't they e-mailed AOPA for me and the problem was resolved).
There is no doubt that the CAA do some great work but they do seem to be lacking in certain areas and I think to resolve this problem a bit of co-operation on both sides could be the order of the day.
Possibly a more user friendly website, I've found some really good stuff there, it just took me ages to find it. And maybe documentation that doesn't sound like it has been written by a legal expert.
The 'committee' have taken alot of flak on this forum over the few years I have been browsing it. Perhaps we could all be a bit more positive and constructive with our critisisms and maybe they will listen.
I know there are people who care at the 'committe', occasionaly I have managed to talk to them. Perhaps they could make a positive gesture and post some sort of reply here.

aftre all the twaddle about rather over privileged heads of state the first words of the ANO : " An aircraft shall not fly, unless...."

I think that says it all

no change in attitude !
 

The best part of 15 years back FCL "misplaced" my exam results after countless phone calls and faxes to FCL no action was taken by them so I asked to speak to the head of FCL.

I was told that his phone number was not to be released to the public , fortunatly a CAA mole that I know found his number for me.

When I phoned him about the lack of service from his department the first thing he said to me was "how did you get my phone number" and his attitude showed a general lack of respect bordering on direct rudeness.

You will not be surprized to learn that his attitude changed somewhat when I told him that I was recoding the phone call and that if I did not get satisfaction the tape would go to the minister of transport along with the file of faxes that I had sent to FCL.

It is refreshing to know that in these days of public accounability and citizens charters that the old values of burocratic arrogance ,indifferance and lack of respect for the people who are paying the wages are alive and well at the CAA.

They will take your money quick though
 

The old tune that they played when you are on hold said it all

Caller has waited for 5 minutes......

'.......... I have known you for quite some time but the thought of love has never crossed my mind........'

After 10 minutes ' ..... all our operators are busy please try again
later click.....'

The CAA continually change the rules and provide little
published information, and the web site is not up to date
on many matters

WHAT DO THEY EXPECT WHEN EVERY MAN AND HIS DOG RING UP .... WAKE UP

Incidentally if you ring up flight test bookings or exam bookings
(ACCOUNT RECEIVABLE) they are always available to take
your cash. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Hypothetical situation...

I live in the countryside or a small town, my only means of transport is my pushbike. I don't have a PC, I can't easily get to a library, I don't know where my nearest flying school is. But I just had a windfall, and I've always wanted to learn to fly. How do I find out about it? Well, it makes sense to ask someone who really knows; I've been given inaccurate advice about things in the past. I know, I'll phone the CAA...

8 years ago there was no CAA website. There was only the Clive Hughes guide to getting a CPL. The CAA published no material designed to help the Wannabe. There was no PPRuNe.

Things are better now.

WWW

Would it be far to dramatic to ask this guy pick up his cardboard box on his way home and not come back?

The CAA don't always seem to enjoy a great reputation among the flying populus.

I hope they learn something from this - preferably, how to treat customers.

cus·tom·er Pronunciation Key (kst-mr) n.
i) One that buys goods or services.

Wobblyprop,

You seem to forget that you are not a customer of the CAA, you are just more work for someone who has a secure job! The CAA is a monopolistic government body.

Do they care if the get complaints? Not unless they come from up top. Is there a need to perform? Not unless they are being jumped upon by someone from up top. Will anything change? Not unless it's from up top.

Complaining to the people at the lower end of the food chain will not improve things. You need to complain to your MP or the Minister of Transport. Even then, there's no guarantee that things will improve. Government bodies of this size are VERY SLOW to change. (Rant Over):mad:

[Stone shield on]

For god sake stop whining! :D

The CAA are perfectly right to say what they have....lets face it, how many pilots *really* look at the correct publications before they phone the CAA and ask them? Its *those* callers they are complaining about....

Those people who dont know what LASORS is, those who dont read WHITE AICs, (nor probably any for that matter), those who never read the GIDs...those to whom the ANO is something the government use as a fly swatter and they certainly wouldnt be caught even peeking inside because you need a lawyer to venture in there dont you? ;)

All these are now online - and the online reference IS the most up to date reference.

Whilst you and I may well phone them up when we have a genuine unanswered issue, they are complaining about the many hoards who dont seem to know how to find out things for themselves....you will be amazed at how simple some questions are...

Lets face it - how many times do the magazines publish articles on revalidation.....hmmm....its not because the CAA havent made the information available...its because there are too many people too damn lazy to read the information that is available...

Now...hands up here who owns a copy of LASORS (my hand is up)....come on - no excuses only £5.....well?

[stone shield set to maximum]

OK folks....start throwing! :D

FF

WWW,

Things are better now? You are kidding, aren't you? The only reason people need to call the CAA is to try to understand the horlicks they've made of FCL. Things are better now? So if you had the choice between your BCPL and self-improver or JAR CPL et al what would you do? Flying is more complicated, over-regulated and expensive than ever before. Throwing a few adobe acrobat documents on the web doesn't make the CAA a caring, friendly, customer-oriented organization. If they sorted out GA and flight training in the UK they might make a few more friends.

I remember paying a fortune for AIC subscription by post and the CAP53/54 wasn't cheap. There were no online resources whatsoever.

LASORS is out there, all the GIDs and AIC's are online. CAA FCL have all their docs and forms online plus publish general advice documents as well as handy things like GetMet.

In addition there is this forum. There are now serveral excellent guidebooks on the whole process available at modest cost. Even BALPA now publish a guide to the whole process.

There are now regular flight training conferences/seminars in the UK. JAA itself are planning to publish the entire ATPL question bank online.

For the leisure flyer you have an explosion of flying in the ultralight and microlight arenas all at modest cost PLUS the NPPL just unveiled.

A modular CPL/IR Frzn ATPL can be had in the UK for less than £40,000. Which is the same as the old BCPL +Upgrade course used to cost. CAP509 courses were available from £49,000 which compares well with todays Integrated course fees.

Pass marks in ATPL exams are now back up to or above what they used to be under the old national exam system. The quality of the material issued by the large groundschools is today MUCH superior to that of 5 years ago.

Todays Wannabes want to be aware that there never was a golden period of flight training. It was always expensive, stressful and everybody hated the CAA. 'Twas ever thus.

You can have the FAA if you want. Just accept that you will spend the first decade of your careers hauling bank cheques, night frieght etc and you simply WON'T be getting twice the national wage on a jet with 500hrs TT as some do under JAA.

Crackingly cheap canteen the CAA has though.

WWW

You're confusing employment market conditions with regulatory framework.

FAA is a vastly superior organisation in so many ways. The CAA/JAA/HM Govt whatever has a lot to answer for the sorry state of GA in this country.

Wee Weasley and Formation Flyer, Delighted to share a country with you.

Why don't the rest of you p*ss of to the US and marry the bl**dy FAA if it's that 'darn' fantastic. Why do you wan't to live in this rainy little miserable country anyway!

When you come back don't forget to tell us how cheap the Levi 501's are whilst you fly cowboy style instrument approaches into Heathrow.

wiblly p
 

OH yes we are so british are we not we dont mind putting up with over payed and undereffective burocrats putting obsticals in the way of progress towards a licence ........they dont give a damm about the cost to us...........but look at the bright side it will keep the rif-raf and the working class out of aviation old boy.

Oh I almost forgot we all know that the americans just cant make the grade can they? , Its simply a question of standards you know ! they do it all cowboy style its just not the thing you know.

I simply must put on my white gloves and fly........... toodle pip.