FAA ATPL to EASA
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: New York
FAA ATPL to EASA
Hello,
I currently live in the states and I would like to convert my FAA ATPL license. (3000 hours flight instruction). I know I will have to take those 14 exams and it seems there is no way out of it. I am just looking for the most convenient way/ place that I can get this thing done. I travel in Europe 2-4 times a year and any location will work for me. Again, im looking for convenience! Im married with full time job and two kids at home. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Also, a friend of mine mentioned that there are few easa member countries that they only require you to take the Air Law exam only. Doesn't make sense to me but doesn't heard to ask. Thanks in advance.
I currently live in the states and I would like to convert my FAA ATPL license. (3000 hours flight instruction). I know I will have to take those 14 exams and it seems there is no way out of it. I am just looking for the most convenient way/ place that I can get this thing done. I travel in Europe 2-4 times a year and any location will work for me. Again, im looking for convenience! Im married with full time job and two kids at home. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Also, a friend of mine mentioned that there are few easa member countries that they only require you to take the Air Law exam only. Doesn't make sense to me but doesn't heard to ask. Thanks in advance.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,974
Likes: 326
From: Hong Kong
Best thing to do is sign up for a distance learning course (I used CATS because they were the cheapest at the time) It'll be about $3000 plus $100 per exam. You can take as many exams as you like in a 'sitting' (4 day period twice a month) but you only get 6 sittings in an 18 month window. You can't just study then test one at a time. Many do two sittings of 7 exams each, others 5/5/4. I did 4/4/3/3 as I find it easier to study fewer subjects in bite sizes chunks.
You're looking at about a year for the theory. I wouldn't even think about finding somewhere to actually fly until you've got 14 passes. You might decide you have better things to do.
With your flight time - From memory the minimums are 7 hours to convert a CPL and 15 hours to convert an IR. You can convert an FAA ATP to a Frozen ATPL (CPL/IR with ATPL theory credits), but in Europe an ATPL actually means something - you can't get one in a cessna like back home - you need 500 hours multi crew. If by chance you have 500 hours multi crew, you can convert ATP > ATPL but you'll need to google that one for yourself.
Either way, get started on those 14 horrendous exams. You'll need to know who attended the Convention of Chicago, who sat where, who walked their dog and what they had for breakfast. You'll need to know about GPS: Satellite orbits, heights, slant angles, frequencies, atomic clock accuracies, azimuth angles etc - just not how to turn it on and use it. You'll need to know the local name of a wind that blows down just one valley on the other side of the planet, and the prevailing winds at any point of the globe at any given time of year.
In short, you'll love it!!
You're looking at about a year for the theory. I wouldn't even think about finding somewhere to actually fly until you've got 14 passes. You might decide you have better things to do.
With your flight time - From memory the minimums are 7 hours to convert a CPL and 15 hours to convert an IR. You can convert an FAA ATP to a Frozen ATPL (CPL/IR with ATPL theory credits), but in Europe an ATPL actually means something - you can't get one in a cessna like back home - you need 500 hours multi crew. If by chance you have 500 hours multi crew, you can convert ATP > ATPL but you'll need to google that one for yourself.
Either way, get started on those 14 horrendous exams. You'll need to know who attended the Convention of Chicago, who sat where, who walked their dog and what they had for breakfast. You'll need to know about GPS: Satellite orbits, heights, slant angles, frequencies, atomic clock accuracies, azimuth angles etc - just not how to turn it on and use it. You'll need to know the local name of a wind that blows down just one valley on the other side of the planet, and the prevailing winds at any point of the globe at any given time of year.
In short, you'll love it!!
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
"I wouldn't even think about finding somewhere to actually fly until you've got 14 passes."
You are allowed to do your training while you study - you just can't take the skill test until you've done all the exams. With an ICAO ATP, it will typically take less than 6 months, here, at least, even with a full time job and two kids. It's 1500 hours as PIC on multipilot aircraft to self certify - 500 hours to avoid the full type rating course.
You are allowed to do your training while you study - you just can't take the skill test until you've done all the exams. With an ICAO ATP, it will typically take less than 6 months, here, at least, even with a full time job and two kids. It's 1500 hours as PIC on multipilot aircraft to self certify - 500 hours to avoid the full type rating course.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,974
Likes: 326
From: Hong Kong
Sorry - I got a bit carried away! They are all achievable, obviously. Given you're presumably a CFII, you should find the flying the easy bit. (As long as you know your NDBs)
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
You could do a six month full time course at Florida Institute of Technology in Melbourne Florida.
They use the Proplot study material.
You take the tests on property.
Modules start every two months.
You can also do the CPL with them.
It is an Irish CPL, so you may want to go to Atlantic in Cork for the I/R and MCC/JOC.
They also to a EASA I/R refresher, that you'll have to do every seven years if your flying in the US.
Or you could do the course on-line with Gulf Coast Aviation in Ft Pierce Florida.
They use the Bristol Ground School study material.
You will have to attend week long study periods and take the exams in Orlando.
There is also a place in San Diego, California, but that's too far for me.
There are many places to do a full time course in the UK.
Brighton, Bournemouth, London, Coventry, Oxford, Edinburgh, Luton etc, etc.
But the time away from your family will be a killer.
People who I've spoken with who tried to do this on-line whilst working for the US regional airlines mostly failed.
So why not just go rent a house in Melbourne for a year and flight instruct out of there.
That's what I'm going to do.
They use the Proplot study material.
You take the tests on property.
Modules start every two months.
You can also do the CPL with them.
It is an Irish CPL, so you may want to go to Atlantic in Cork for the I/R and MCC/JOC.
They also to a EASA I/R refresher, that you'll have to do every seven years if your flying in the US.
Or you could do the course on-line with Gulf Coast Aviation in Ft Pierce Florida.
They use the Bristol Ground School study material.
You will have to attend week long study periods and take the exams in Orlando.
There is also a place in San Diego, California, but that's too far for me.
There are many places to do a full time course in the UK.
Brighton, Bournemouth, London, Coventry, Oxford, Edinburgh, Luton etc, etc.
But the time away from your family will be a killer.
People who I've spoken with who tried to do this on-line whilst working for the US regional airlines mostly failed.
So why not just go rent a house in Melbourne for a year and flight instruct out of there.
That's what I'm going to do.
Last edited by button push ignored; 18th January 2017 at 04:25.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Just to prove it's not impossible, from one of our students:
"If you are going to succeed as an instrument-rated commercial pilot, you need to be self-motivated and capable of making your own decisions and adapting to a high workload. Oddly enough, these same skills and mindset are needed if you are going to have any chance of passing your exams. In that respect, it's not the quantity of the information that ultimately will get you across the line, it's quality and the attitude you develop towards your training.
In my case, I started the course in November 2013 and completed in July 2014, passing all 14 exams on the first try over three sittings whilst being a 49 year old father of two and working full time."
"If you are going to succeed as an instrument-rated commercial pilot, you need to be self-motivated and capable of making your own decisions and adapting to a high workload. Oddly enough, these same skills and mindset are needed if you are going to have any chance of passing your exams. In that respect, it's not the quantity of the information that ultimately will get you across the line, it's quality and the attitude you develop towards your training.
In my case, I started the course in November 2013 and completed in July 2014, passing all 14 exams on the first try over three sittings whilst being a 49 year old father of two and working full time."
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Cypilot77.
What are you goals?
Why do you want an EASA ATPL?
With 3000 hours and a ATP, your more than qualified to get any regional airline job in the US.
These pay about $50,000 a year and often have a signing bonus.
If you have the right to work in the UK/Europe the jobs that are available are not as well paid as the US.
UK regional like FlyBE only pay about $25,000 and have training contracts of about $20,000 tied to them.
If you aiming for something larger like EasyJet/Ryanair, just spend some time looking in the 'terms and endearment' and 'cabin crew' section of this web site. You'll get an idea of what they are putting up with. Yes, some 19 year old's from the top schools do get B-737 jobs. But don't think it's the land of milk and honey. For I think many of them would give their back teeth for the right to work in the US. Just look at the first year pay and training contract of about $35,000, and you'll see it's a wash.
I used to fly a lot out of Rome Ciampino airport. Whilst waiting on a crew bus to take us out to our plane, I got to speak to many Ryanair crews. Few liked it, most didn't, and some despised it.
Speaking to pilots at Americas discount carriers like Frontier, Spirit, Allegiant etc, nobody is really disgruntled. The worst you'll find is 'it's just a job, 'til something better comes along'.
You could end up spending a year and $20,000 getting a EASA (f)ATPL for very little point. It would have to be 'frozen' because you don't have the 500 multi crew. This would mean you'd have to go back and do a type rating at a later time.
Another and possibly better way to do it, would be to get a regional US job (one that has simulators available in Europe), and once you've got the 500 hours multi crew. You are now exempt from doing the ground school, but you still have to do the exams. I met a A-320 co-pilot who tried to pass the exams after doing a bit of home study. He failed miserably. As I would too. It takes an unbelievable amount of dedication to self study for these exams, especially if you have a full time job and a family. But assuming you pass, you can then do a type rating in the plane you fly in Europe.
Beware that there is a time limit on these written exams, and you have to keep an EASA I/R current or you'll have to do the whole thing again.
What are you goals?
Why do you want an EASA ATPL?
With 3000 hours and a ATP, your more than qualified to get any regional airline job in the US.
These pay about $50,000 a year and often have a signing bonus.
If you have the right to work in the UK/Europe the jobs that are available are not as well paid as the US.
UK regional like FlyBE only pay about $25,000 and have training contracts of about $20,000 tied to them.
If you aiming for something larger like EasyJet/Ryanair, just spend some time looking in the 'terms and endearment' and 'cabin crew' section of this web site. You'll get an idea of what they are putting up with. Yes, some 19 year old's from the top schools do get B-737 jobs. But don't think it's the land of milk and honey. For I think many of them would give their back teeth for the right to work in the US. Just look at the first year pay and training contract of about $35,000, and you'll see it's a wash.
I used to fly a lot out of Rome Ciampino airport. Whilst waiting on a crew bus to take us out to our plane, I got to speak to many Ryanair crews. Few liked it, most didn't, and some despised it.
Speaking to pilots at Americas discount carriers like Frontier, Spirit, Allegiant etc, nobody is really disgruntled. The worst you'll find is 'it's just a job, 'til something better comes along'.
You could end up spending a year and $20,000 getting a EASA (f)ATPL for very little point. It would have to be 'frozen' because you don't have the 500 multi crew. This would mean you'd have to go back and do a type rating at a later time.
Another and possibly better way to do it, would be to get a regional US job (one that has simulators available in Europe), and once you've got the 500 hours multi crew. You are now exempt from doing the ground school, but you still have to do the exams. I met a A-320 co-pilot who tried to pass the exams after doing a bit of home study. He failed miserably. As I would too. It takes an unbelievable amount of dedication to self study for these exams, especially if you have a full time job and a family. But assuming you pass, you can then do a type rating in the plane you fly in Europe.
Beware that there is a time limit on these written exams, and you have to keep an EASA I/R current or you'll have to do the whole thing again.
Last edited by button push ignored; 18th January 2017 at 17:52.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
I do not see the point in converting a FAA Comm/Inst/Multi to a EASA (frozen) ATPL.
Unless 1/ You don't have the right to work in the USA, or 2/ You are not 21 years old.
If you are 18 with a Comm/Inst/Multi there are plenty of Pt135 or Pt91 jobs available.
If you are 21 and have 1500 hours, you can get a job at any US regional airline.
Once you have 500 multi crew, you can convert to a FULL EASA ATPL.
You will have to self study for the 14 exams, which can be taken in Orlando. Then you will have to rent a simulator in Europe for the type of plane you currently fly and do a type rating check ride.
This sounds a lot less hassle than doing a conversion because you will then have to do the type rating again to make your FROZEN ATPL a FULL ATPL.
The whole point of me being on this web site was to find a better way forward for my three dual national children.
I'm still interested in having them get a EASA ATPL, but I now think their time, and my money, would be better spent flying Pt135 air taxi or Pt91 private until they are 21 and have a SIC ATP.
And working an that all important and totally pointless degree.
That way, if they have plenty of experience, we may be able to bypass the US regionals and go direct to the supplemental carriers.
We are still looking at UK Universities. Hendon's program, whilst rather cheesy may still get the job done. Pity about the three year wait though.
Every idea, is always a thought in motion. There never is one perfect way. There only is a right way, right now.
Unless 1/ You don't have the right to work in the USA, or 2/ You are not 21 years old.
If you are 18 with a Comm/Inst/Multi there are plenty of Pt135 or Pt91 jobs available.
If you are 21 and have 1500 hours, you can get a job at any US regional airline.
Once you have 500 multi crew, you can convert to a FULL EASA ATPL.
You will have to self study for the 14 exams, which can be taken in Orlando. Then you will have to rent a simulator in Europe for the type of plane you currently fly and do a type rating check ride.
This sounds a lot less hassle than doing a conversion because you will then have to do the type rating again to make your FROZEN ATPL a FULL ATPL.
The whole point of me being on this web site was to find a better way forward for my three dual national children.
I'm still interested in having them get a EASA ATPL, but I now think their time, and my money, would be better spent flying Pt135 air taxi or Pt91 private until they are 21 and have a SIC ATP.
And working an that all important and totally pointless degree.
That way, if they have plenty of experience, we may be able to bypass the US regionals and go direct to the supplemental carriers.
We are still looking at UK Universities. Hendon's program, whilst rather cheesy may still get the job done. Pity about the three year wait though.
Every idea, is always a thought in motion. There never is one perfect way. There only is a right way, right now.
Last edited by button push ignored; 24th January 2017 at 00:17.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: New York
Thanks again for the info. I have no desire working for airlines. I am planning to move back to europe in the next few years and all I want to do is to teach part time or work for a small operation flying air taxi. In other words, just to be involve with flying and treat my aviation bug.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,846
Likes: 4
From: Bristol, England
If I may correct you, Button Push, Flybe First Officers start at £28K pa, which is roughly $30K, with a training bond but not one you have to pay back unless you leave in very short order because it reduces year by year. Flybe are one of the lowest paying 'large airlines'. Ryanai are a good example. Yes, an FO starts on £30K or so but, as their Head of Training points out, within 5 years you are likely to be a Captain on £100K plus, often in your mid 20s.
In Europe FOs hold type ratings, so there is no need to wait until your ATPl is 'unfrozen' to do this, you would get type rated on first hire.
I grant you that the US market is lively at the moment and that there are some great first hire deals to be had.
In Europe FOs hold type ratings, so there is no need to wait until your ATPl is 'unfrozen' to do this, you would get type rated on first hire.
I grant you that the US market is lively at the moment and that there are some great first hire deals to be had.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Alex: Getting a job with a Pt 141 airline in the US isn't going to happen until your 21 with 1500 hours. 1000 hours for a restricted ATP if you graduate a University program.
The problem as I see it, is. If you go through a University program at age 18 you'll graduate at age 22 with 250 hours. 1000 hours looks a long way off.
It's my opinion that your career is now behind the power curve.
Six months ago I was enthusiastic about getting a conversion to (f) ATPL and a degree in the UK. Now I'm not so sure.
What I don't want to happen is for the tide to turn. After going to the trouble of getting a (f) ATPL, if no jobs were available then they would have to return to the US having wasted $20,000 and more importantly one year.
I understand that your F/O type rating rolls over if you were employed in Europe. But if you just get the (f) ATPL without the job then you'd have to start from scratch again to get a full ATPL.
My thinking is almost back to where I was a year ago. As in, fly for our Pt135 feeder airline and work on an on-line degree in the US.
One thing I need is a clarification on the EASA term PIC US.
I see that there is a 250 hour limit for the full EASA ATPL requirements.
Please define what constitutes 'Under Supervision'.
Obviously I'm an aircraft owner and a CFI/II/ME, ATP, A&P.
I just don't want to run into trouble with the kids logging PIC hours with a PPL with me on-board as observer.
The problem as I see it, is. If you go through a University program at age 18 you'll graduate at age 22 with 250 hours. 1000 hours looks a long way off.
It's my opinion that your career is now behind the power curve.
Six months ago I was enthusiastic about getting a conversion to (f) ATPL and a degree in the UK. Now I'm not so sure.
What I don't want to happen is for the tide to turn. After going to the trouble of getting a (f) ATPL, if no jobs were available then they would have to return to the US having wasted $20,000 and more importantly one year.
I understand that your F/O type rating rolls over if you were employed in Europe. But if you just get the (f) ATPL without the job then you'd have to start from scratch again to get a full ATPL.
My thinking is almost back to where I was a year ago. As in, fly for our Pt135 feeder airline and work on an on-line degree in the US.
One thing I need is a clarification on the EASA term PIC US.
I see that there is a 250 hour limit for the full EASA ATPL requirements.
Please define what constitutes 'Under Supervision'.
Obviously I'm an aircraft owner and a CFI/II/ME, ATP, A&P.
I just don't want to run into trouble with the kids logging PIC hours with a PPL with me on-board as observer.
Last edited by button push ignored; 24th January 2017 at 03:01.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Cypilot77.
One big difference between the US and Europe is, you do not need a CPL to be a flight instructor.
You can do it with a PPL and a Flight Instructor License. You will need a obligatory navy sweater with leather patches and epaulets though.
As for Air Taxi in Europe, (pt 135 in the US), I don't know that business.
But when I was waiting for my green card to be processed in Britain. I had a Lear Jet pt 135 letter and about 500 hours on type and a PIC type rating for a Citation.
I went looking for work at Biggin Hill where Bernie Eclestone of British Motor Racing Developments who had a Lear Jet N2FU.
After the reception I got, I wouldn't have worked there for anything. N2FU Bernie
So I went to Luton where a US registered Citation, Sabreliner and Jetstar were based.
The receptionist called the Police when I tried to put resumes/CVs in their office mailbox.
The worst reception I ever got was Trans Arabian Air Cargo in Hayes who operated DC-8s from Stansted.
I didn't mind getting yelled at by the boss for looking for a job. But I did feel sorry for the people who did work there for having to put up with him everyday.
I got my green card at the US Embassy at 12 noon and was on a Pan-Am 747 to New York at 4pm. I couldn't wait to get out of there.
One big difference between the US and Europe is, you do not need a CPL to be a flight instructor.
You can do it with a PPL and a Flight Instructor License. You will need a obligatory navy sweater with leather patches and epaulets though.
As for Air Taxi in Europe, (pt 135 in the US), I don't know that business.
But when I was waiting for my green card to be processed in Britain. I had a Lear Jet pt 135 letter and about 500 hours on type and a PIC type rating for a Citation.
I went looking for work at Biggin Hill where Bernie Eclestone of British Motor Racing Developments who had a Lear Jet N2FU.
After the reception I got, I wouldn't have worked there for anything. N2FU Bernie
So I went to Luton where a US registered Citation, Sabreliner and Jetstar were based.
The receptionist called the Police when I tried to put resumes/CVs in their office mailbox.
The worst reception I ever got was Trans Arabian Air Cargo in Hayes who operated DC-8s from Stansted.
I didn't mind getting yelled at by the boss for looking for a job. But I did feel sorry for the people who did work there for having to put up with him everyday.
I got my green card at the US Embassy at 12 noon and was on a Pan-Am 747 to New York at 4pm. I couldn't wait to get out of there.
Last edited by button push ignored; 24th January 2017 at 15:02.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,846
Likes: 4
From: Bristol, England
PICUS is defined in Part FCL as "a co-pilot performing, under the supervision of the pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command." Nearly all references in AMC and GM to Part FCL refer to PICUS in the context of a co-pilot of a multi pilot aeroplane. For instance : "PICUS flight time: provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the competent authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS when all the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out in such a way that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required."
There is a body of opinion that says that PICUS therefore only refers to multi-pilot aircraft but there is another (slightly smaller) body that point to a single clause in the AMC that says "the applicant for or the holder of a pilot licence may log as PIC time all solo flight time, flight time as SPIC and flight time under supervision provided that such SPIC time and flight time under supervision are countersigned by the instructor" to imply that 'flight time under supervision' countersigned by an FI is PICUS that can be logged as PIC.
It would seem to me that, if your children held a valid licence on a single-pilot aircraft and signed for it as PIC, then whether you are an 'observer' or not is irrelevant.
Nothing more definitive that I am aware of, but FIs may have a clearer view.
Not sure why you say that, if you get a frozen ATPL without a job, you have to start from scratch again to get a full ATPL. Can you explain?
There is a body of opinion that says that PICUS therefore only refers to multi-pilot aircraft but there is another (slightly smaller) body that point to a single clause in the AMC that says "the applicant for or the holder of a pilot licence may log as PIC time all solo flight time, flight time as SPIC and flight time under supervision provided that such SPIC time and flight time under supervision are countersigned by the instructor" to imply that 'flight time under supervision' countersigned by an FI is PICUS that can be logged as PIC.
It would seem to me that, if your children held a valid licence on a single-pilot aircraft and signed for it as PIC, then whether you are an 'observer' or not is irrelevant.
Nothing more definitive that I am aware of, but FIs may have a clearer view.
Not sure why you say that, if you get a frozen ATPL without a job, you have to start from scratch again to get a full ATPL. Can you explain?
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Alex. Thank you for the explanation to the PICUS question.
As for unfreezing a frozen ATPL.
If you are employed by a UK airline with a (f)ATPL at age 19, once you are 21 with 1500 hours and 500 multi crew. Your yearly check ride should constitute a conversion from frozen to full ATPL.
But if you are working in the US as F/O under Pt 135 with a Comm/Inst/Multi and turn 21 with 1500 hours and your ATP written passed, your yearly check ride will also be your SIC ATP ride and SIC type rating. When you turn 23 it will be upgraded to a PIC type rating.
But you will still have to unfreeze your (f)ATPL which would require renting a simulator in Europe to do the same check ride again, or buying a EASA examiner a ticket to the US and expenses to watch you in a simulator.
Killing two birds with one stone however, would be the new Norwegian WOW Airlines. Where you get two years flying with a FAA ATP license before having to convert to a EASA ATPL. Sounds like you can spend two years with BGS study material, being based in Florida and taking the exams in Orlando, and use Norwegians simulators for the EASA check ride. Brilliant.
As for unfreezing a frozen ATPL.
If you are employed by a UK airline with a (f)ATPL at age 19, once you are 21 with 1500 hours and 500 multi crew. Your yearly check ride should constitute a conversion from frozen to full ATPL.
But if you are working in the US as F/O under Pt 135 with a Comm/Inst/Multi and turn 21 with 1500 hours and your ATP written passed, your yearly check ride will also be your SIC ATP ride and SIC type rating. When you turn 23 it will be upgraded to a PIC type rating.
But you will still have to unfreeze your (f)ATPL which would require renting a simulator in Europe to do the same check ride again, or buying a EASA examiner a ticket to the US and expenses to watch you in a simulator.
Killing two birds with one stone however, would be the new Norwegian WOW Airlines. Where you get two years flying with a FAA ATP license before having to convert to a EASA ATPL. Sounds like you can spend two years with BGS study material, being based in Florida and taking the exams in Orlando, and use Norwegians simulators for the EASA check ride. Brilliant.
Last edited by button push ignored; 24th January 2017 at 15:31.
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: Qatar
Please help
Guys i got my FAA IR with 100+ pic hours without instructor and 50 IFR hours 250TT. I wana do the cpl and the IR Conversion and MEP in europe cz going directly i guess is gona save me alot of money . Any suggestions ? Should i do the FAA cpl or just go directly? Or doing the CPL this way even possible? I am so confused 😞😞😞