How I did it! How you can do it!
Educated Hillbilly
Joined: Dec 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 13
From: From the Hills
Push button;
I have good reasons to take a negative vibe on this post? This original post actually represents quite a few negative aspects of the industry.
You are aware of the Air France Incident aren't you? A contributory cause of that incident was the fact the two pilots up front despite having lots of hours essentially went form ab intio training straight to an Airbus with little experience of flying anything else. The fact a lot of cadets are now training on twin stars means they are no longer acquiring traditional instrument flying skills; so no I will not positively endorse any one who goes from a Twin Star straight to an Airbus without attempting to build some alternative flying experience.
Our poster has a lot of experience flying an Airbus but has little experience of flying anything that is challenging and demanding.
As far as I am concerned every twin star trained cadet going to an Airbus is increasing the probability of another Air France incident.
Everyone on this forum a few years back use to flame anyone who did a self sponsored type rating; all the experienced pilots use to say, go instruct, go fly turbo-props don't pay for a type. As said I don't disapprove of SSTR as such, but neither should anyone who has entered the industry by such a route really be praised or celebrated.
The original poster has merely gone through a system available to him and there is a lot of credit due. But at the same time the inference of this post is encouraging and telling wannabes to just go and pay for an A320 type rating. So push is this really want you want to encourage and endorse.
Are you aware of the harm Self Sponsored type ratings have done to the industry?
Firstly the poster obtained his first job by paying for a type rating? That is what wizz air do,they run SSTR schemes. I don't object to people paying for type ratings but irrespective of the how the money was obtained it means the job was not obtained on merit or experience but merely on the ability to pay for rating.
But the consequence of the proliferation of SSTR schemes means a lot of instructors
and experienced turbo-prop pilots have been unable to move on while Airlines have elected instead to employ low hours candidates through self sponsored training schemes.
Secondly people training on a twin star and transferring straight to an airbus means they will have never have done any flying that develops actual raw flying skill.
A lot will say that with modern airliners traditional skills are irrelevant; well look at the Air France incident.
Push tell me when your family is in the back of an Airliner and the systems kick out please tell me who you want up front, Chelsey Sullenburger some one with experience; who are you happy to have a couple of people who just paid there way into the industry and have never actually experience flying anything more than a twinstar and an airbus.
I hope EASA follows the FAA route and brings in an hours requirement for the sake of future flight safety.
I am not been negative out of personal bitterness I am talking on behalf of a lot of other instructors and turbo prop pilots that have attempted to build experience, develop, learn the trade and who haven't just paid their way into the industry.
I have good reasons to take a negative vibe on this post? This original post actually represents quite a few negative aspects of the industry.
You are aware of the Air France Incident aren't you? A contributory cause of that incident was the fact the two pilots up front despite having lots of hours essentially went form ab intio training straight to an Airbus with little experience of flying anything else. The fact a lot of cadets are now training on twin stars means they are no longer acquiring traditional instrument flying skills; so no I will not positively endorse any one who goes from a Twin Star straight to an Airbus without attempting to build some alternative flying experience.
Our poster has a lot of experience flying an Airbus but has little experience of flying anything that is challenging and demanding.
As far as I am concerned every twin star trained cadet going to an Airbus is increasing the probability of another Air France incident.
Everyone on this forum a few years back use to flame anyone who did a self sponsored type rating; all the experienced pilots use to say, go instruct, go fly turbo-props don't pay for a type. As said I don't disapprove of SSTR as such, but neither should anyone who has entered the industry by such a route really be praised or celebrated.
The original poster has merely gone through a system available to him and there is a lot of credit due. But at the same time the inference of this post is encouraging and telling wannabes to just go and pay for an A320 type rating. So push is this really want you want to encourage and endorse.
Are you aware of the harm Self Sponsored type ratings have done to the industry?
Firstly the poster obtained his first job by paying for a type rating? That is what wizz air do,they run SSTR schemes. I don't object to people paying for type ratings but irrespective of the how the money was obtained it means the job was not obtained on merit or experience but merely on the ability to pay for rating.
But the consequence of the proliferation of SSTR schemes means a lot of instructors
and experienced turbo-prop pilots have been unable to move on while Airlines have elected instead to employ low hours candidates through self sponsored training schemes.
Secondly people training on a twin star and transferring straight to an airbus means they will have never have done any flying that develops actual raw flying skill.
A lot will say that with modern airliners traditional skills are irrelevant; well look at the Air France incident.
Push tell me when your family is in the back of an Airliner and the systems kick out please tell me who you want up front, Chelsey Sullenburger some one with experience; who are you happy to have a couple of people who just paid there way into the industry and have never actually experience flying anything more than a twinstar and an airbus.
I hope EASA follows the FAA route and brings in an hours requirement for the sake of future flight safety.
I am not been negative out of personal bitterness I am talking on behalf of a lot of other instructors and turbo prop pilots that have attempted to build experience, develop, learn the trade and who haven't just paid their way into the industry.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 1st December 2016 at 17:54.
Educated Hillbilly
Joined: Dec 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 13
From: From the Hills
"Instrument rating: duration 5 weeks. This was the course everyone feared, in fact I throughly enjoyed the IR, I seemed to gel with the instrument flying. Majority was flown in the DA42 and the DA42 sim. Passed first time"
You did your initial IR on a twinstar: Go back do the IR in an analogue Seneca 1; then tell me you gelled with instrument flying. Then you will realise why people dreaded the IR course. The above shows this Twin Star to Airbus generation has no comprehension of the limitations of the training route they have followed.
This is what concerns me.
Certainly do not want some one who isn't aware of his limitations up front. This is the exact reason why I have concerns for the Twinstar to Airbus generation.
You did your initial IR on a twinstar: Go back do the IR in an analogue Seneca 1; then tell me you gelled with instrument flying. Then you will realise why people dreaded the IR course. The above shows this Twin Star to Airbus generation has no comprehension of the limitations of the training route they have followed.
This is what concerns me.
Certainly do not want some one who isn't aware of his limitations up front. This is the exact reason why I have concerns for the Twinstar to Airbus generation.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
I'm fully aware of the Air France accident, where the person in the left seat pulled, and the person in the right seat pushed. Unfortunately the left seat over ruled the right seat and they stalled.
That's why we practiced 'unreliable airspeed' in the simulator last year, and changed to procedures and immediate recall items.
But most important, all that series of pitot tubes have all now been replaced.
The American Airlines accident lead to a warning light and another memory item.
DA-20, DA-40s and DA-42 are not popular in the US. Middle Tennessee State University operates them, and will be putting the whole fleet up for sale as soon as their new fleet of Cessna 172s are delivered. I was interested in buying a DA-40 recently, as an excellent one was offered. But given a choice I'd rather have a Cirrus SR-20 or SR-22.
But it's not supposed to be about me, so my 1973 Cessna 172M will suffice as a primary/intermediate trainer for my three kids. The plane has been completely restored by me, and should last for another 3000 before it's next overhaul. Each of my kids will have about 1000 hours each before finishing school. And I'm tough on them, and come up with some of the most demanding training scenarios imaginable. I'm not going to have anybody say that they were just flying around with dad.
The man in the next hangar owns a communications company and has a Beech Baron. When he goes, boy does he go! He fly's about 20 hours in a few days all over the Southwest. They will be flying with him when the time comes as a perfect first job. One of my riding buddies operates several Beech and Hawker jets and will give them their first jet job.
My kids will be experience and competent pilots when they enter the work force and won't be 250 hour wizz kids.
I'm not against any school or business. But I believe my training program is better than anything anybody else can offer. Only because they are my kids, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
That's why we practiced 'unreliable airspeed' in the simulator last year, and changed to procedures and immediate recall items.
But most important, all that series of pitot tubes have all now been replaced.
The American Airlines accident lead to a warning light and another memory item.
DA-20, DA-40s and DA-42 are not popular in the US. Middle Tennessee State University operates them, and will be putting the whole fleet up for sale as soon as their new fleet of Cessna 172s are delivered. I was interested in buying a DA-40 recently, as an excellent one was offered. But given a choice I'd rather have a Cirrus SR-20 or SR-22.
But it's not supposed to be about me, so my 1973 Cessna 172M will suffice as a primary/intermediate trainer for my three kids. The plane has been completely restored by me, and should last for another 3000 before it's next overhaul. Each of my kids will have about 1000 hours each before finishing school. And I'm tough on them, and come up with some of the most demanding training scenarios imaginable. I'm not going to have anybody say that they were just flying around with dad.
The man in the next hangar owns a communications company and has a Beech Baron. When he goes, boy does he go! He fly's about 20 hours in a few days all over the Southwest. They will be flying with him when the time comes as a perfect first job. One of my riding buddies operates several Beech and Hawker jets and will give them their first jet job.
My kids will be experience and competent pilots when they enter the work force and won't be 250 hour wizz kids.
I'm not against any school or business. But I believe my training program is better than anything anybody else can offer. Only because they are my kids, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Educated Hillbilly
Joined: Dec 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 13
From: From the Hills
The training regime you have suggested your children will go through sounds excellent and it is that kind of training route that needs to be encouraged.
Agreed the Airbus side-stick was also a major factor in the Air-france incident. But I do still feel that had the two pilots involved had an instructional background (where they would have been teaching stalling frequently) the out-come would have been different. I know it is easy to sit here on the ground and criticise an incident and one can never tell how I would have reacted personally in that situation, but ever more systems reliability and procedures seem to potentially compensate for lack of basics.
Glad to hear procedure have been changed, but surely unreliable airspeed is back to basics, set power, set attitude.
Push button, it was not my intention to argue with you or discredit A320B; but I don't feel that any more 200 hours straight to Airbus is a something that the industry needs.
Agreed the Airbus side-stick was also a major factor in the Air-france incident. But I do still feel that had the two pilots involved had an instructional background (where they would have been teaching stalling frequently) the out-come would have been different. I know it is easy to sit here on the ground and criticise an incident and one can never tell how I would have reacted personally in that situation, but ever more systems reliability and procedures seem to potentially compensate for lack of basics.
Glad to hear procedure have been changed, but surely unreliable airspeed is back to basics, set power, set attitude.
Push button, it was not my intention to argue with you or discredit A320B; but I don't feel that any more 200 hours straight to Airbus is a something that the industry needs.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
From: Somerset
The kind of training regime that pushbuttonignored has got line up for his kids is truly exceptional. His kids are truly fortunate, sadly not everyone is fortunate to have a father who owns an aircraft, instructs them and has contacts who can hook them up with employment right up to jet work. Any of us would do the same for our kids if we were in that situation, I am sure push has ensured that his kids are well balanced and appreciate their privileged situation. I wish them luck as they develop into professional and competent crew.
Last edited by magicmick; 2nd December 2016 at 10:41.
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 446
Likes: 7
From: Germany
Sorry to jump in , but at Portsharbor.
You can state that we need in EASA land also a 1500 rule? Now good luck with that. There is already a huge lack of pilots in USA for the Airline business.
Myself I would have loved to start to do some instructing or a TP job. But only now the market is opening.
I am also of the opinion that it is better for general skills to start small and improve your basic flying skills on small TP's, but there is a big difference of Aviation in EU and USA.
In USA you have quiet many Air Taxi's, Crop dusting etc. Such we dont have here in EU. So how should you get 1500 hrs then?
Instructing jobs are also extremely scarce . Which means there will be not enough pilots trained and not enough FI's.
Just my way of thinking.
Again, I was also willing to start with small stuff. I dont feel to good for such jobs. I would have loved it, but such jobs are not so much available.
I tried to apply for Sky Diving Dropping jobs, but to do rating on Pilatus you had to pay 8K and you need at least 500 hours tt.
You can state that we need in EASA land also a 1500 rule? Now good luck with that. There is already a huge lack of pilots in USA for the Airline business.
Myself I would have loved to start to do some instructing or a TP job. But only now the market is opening.
I am also of the opinion that it is better for general skills to start small and improve your basic flying skills on small TP's, but there is a big difference of Aviation in EU and USA.
In USA you have quiet many Air Taxi's, Crop dusting etc. Such we dont have here in EU. So how should you get 1500 hrs then?
Instructing jobs are also extremely scarce . Which means there will be not enough pilots trained and not enough FI's.
Just my way of thinking.
Again, I was also willing to start with small stuff. I dont feel to good for such jobs. I would have loved it, but such jobs are not so much available.
I tried to apply for Sky Diving Dropping jobs, but to do rating on Pilatus you had to pay 8K and you need at least 500 hours tt.
Educated Hillbilly
Joined: Dec 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 13
From: From the Hills
P40, I can only answer your question from a UK perspective, so a lot of what I say may not be that applicable for you based in Germany.
I wouldn't suggest the requirement would be as high as 1500 hours but I would like to see a return to the Pre-JAA 2000, CAA self improver requirement of 700 hours total time to hold a full CPL. So yes there was actually an hour requirement here in the UK before JAA was introduced.
Before JAA was implemented there were two ways to gain a UK CAA CPL and frozen ATPL. Attending a CAP4XX course (which we would now call an Integrated course, cant remember what the number was CAP413?, CAP403?) or the self improver route, the self improver route involved gaining a Basic Commercial Pilots License at 150 hours. This allowed you to be paid to fly single engine aircraft, so on that people did instructors ratings, went para dropping, glider tugging, aerial photography or scenic flights, once 700 hours was obtained the BCPL was upgraded to a CPL. The CAP4 courses were pretty much only the reserve of pre-selected Airline sponsored or part sponsored cadets. Oxford and BAE Flight training (the pre-cursor to FTE) didn't market to private individuals at that point; some people did still self fund through these full time courses but it was a minority.
While some will argue day VFR hour building has little relevance to Airline style flying, I would to an extent agree, but the hours requirement does the following
1) In the US it has created a shortage, consequently First Officer pay and conditions in the Regionals has improved. So that isn't a bad thing.
2) It means pilots get the basic skills engrained (those skills are often the base line core skills that stop people holding an airliner in a stall all the way to the ground)
3) It weeds out those that just want to be airline pilots and have little passion or enthusiasm for flying
4) It creates a buffer in the system
5) It actually ensures you also have a steady stream of instructors to support the training industry.
6) If the hour requirement was applied to all irrespective of the route (modular or integrated) the integrated course would cease to exist.
7) It stops people just buying them-selves into the industry (OK those wealthy enough will just hire the hours, but at least they are still gaining basic level "raw" flying experience).
8) If airlines have to wait for candidates to gain hours then you will see a reduction in the SSTR schemes.
9) All the current instructors will get employed first by the airlines and the twin star zero to heros from CTC will have to actually go and fly something before becoming an A320 operator.
P40, in the UK in the last 12 months there has been a large demand for instructors, in-fact we are even seeing instructor jobs offering salaries not just flight pay. Partly because finally after years of stagnation some instructors are moving to other things. As more candidates seem to be opting for the CTC route for training and / or opting for the SSTR route then there are less frozen ATPLS going into instructing.
Operators charging 8k for Pilatus ratings are also anther thing that has promoted or encouraged people to opt for SSTRs on 737 or A320s; so yes I do sympathise for your predicament.
But while the FAA has introduced the 1500 hour requirement; EASA land has gone the other way, the new MPL route now means new FOs may only have 40 hours of actual flight time.
I wouldn't suggest the requirement would be as high as 1500 hours but I would like to see a return to the Pre-JAA 2000, CAA self improver requirement of 700 hours total time to hold a full CPL. So yes there was actually an hour requirement here in the UK before JAA was introduced.
Before JAA was implemented there were two ways to gain a UK CAA CPL and frozen ATPL. Attending a CAP4XX course (which we would now call an Integrated course, cant remember what the number was CAP413?, CAP403?) or the self improver route, the self improver route involved gaining a Basic Commercial Pilots License at 150 hours. This allowed you to be paid to fly single engine aircraft, so on that people did instructors ratings, went para dropping, glider tugging, aerial photography or scenic flights, once 700 hours was obtained the BCPL was upgraded to a CPL. The CAP4 courses were pretty much only the reserve of pre-selected Airline sponsored or part sponsored cadets. Oxford and BAE Flight training (the pre-cursor to FTE) didn't market to private individuals at that point; some people did still self fund through these full time courses but it was a minority.
While some will argue day VFR hour building has little relevance to Airline style flying, I would to an extent agree, but the hours requirement does the following
1) In the US it has created a shortage, consequently First Officer pay and conditions in the Regionals has improved. So that isn't a bad thing.
2) It means pilots get the basic skills engrained (those skills are often the base line core skills that stop people holding an airliner in a stall all the way to the ground)
3) It weeds out those that just want to be airline pilots and have little passion or enthusiasm for flying
4) It creates a buffer in the system
5) It actually ensures you also have a steady stream of instructors to support the training industry.
6) If the hour requirement was applied to all irrespective of the route (modular or integrated) the integrated course would cease to exist.
7) It stops people just buying them-selves into the industry (OK those wealthy enough will just hire the hours, but at least they are still gaining basic level "raw" flying experience).
8) If airlines have to wait for candidates to gain hours then you will see a reduction in the SSTR schemes.
9) All the current instructors will get employed first by the airlines and the twin star zero to heros from CTC will have to actually go and fly something before becoming an A320 operator.
P40, in the UK in the last 12 months there has been a large demand for instructors, in-fact we are even seeing instructor jobs offering salaries not just flight pay. Partly because finally after years of stagnation some instructors are moving to other things. As more candidates seem to be opting for the CTC route for training and / or opting for the SSTR route then there are less frozen ATPLS going into instructing.
Operators charging 8k for Pilatus ratings are also anther thing that has promoted or encouraged people to opt for SSTRs on 737 or A320s; so yes I do sympathise for your predicament.
But while the FAA has introduced the 1500 hour requirement; EASA land has gone the other way, the new MPL route now means new FOs may only have 40 hours of actual flight time.
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 507
Likes: 1
From: France
And what do these MPL (or twin star to airbus) pilots do ?
They retract the flaps instead of the gear on takeoff :
Incident: Easyjet A319 at Bristol on Feb 16th 2016, flaps instead gear retracted
They enter into alpha floor because they think pulling up with no power will increase their speed :
Incident: Easyjet A320 at Paphos on Jan 7th 2015, Alpha Floor Activation on approach
They don't flare and bang their aircraft on the ground :
https://assets.publishing.service.go...DHJZ_12-08.pdf
What is very very contradictory is that I myself would very much like to be an Airbus pilot with 250 hours of piston, and I am wondering how to avoid doing mistakes such as the above with this little experience.
They retract the flaps instead of the gear on takeoff :
Incident: Easyjet A319 at Bristol on Feb 16th 2016, flaps instead gear retracted
They enter into alpha floor because they think pulling up with no power will increase their speed :
Incident: Easyjet A320 at Paphos on Jan 7th 2015, Alpha Floor Activation on approach
They don't flare and bang their aircraft on the ground :
https://assets.publishing.service.go...DHJZ_12-08.pdf
What is very very contradictory is that I myself would very much like to be an Airbus pilot with 250 hours of piston, and I am wondering how to avoid doing mistakes such as the above with this little experience.
SkyGod
Joined: Aug 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,624
Likes: 107
From: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Aye OP, been there done that.
I was not from a glamorous background either, never finished elementary or high school, got bored and frustrated, dropped out.
Sailed on Merchant ships and drove taxi cabs, got bored with that too.
Bought into a US flight school at at age 21 and got my CPL, IR and MEL in 1978.
DC-3 Captain 8 years later in St. Thomas, B-747 FO 2 years after that and B-747 Captain 1996.
Then on to a major airline in the US.
Long story but all doable. Never went to schools, English not the native language.
Hard work, good attitude and more hard work will do it.
Don't ever give up kids, you will get the god life and the good jobs if you really, really want it.
I was not from a glamorous background either, never finished elementary or high school, got bored and frustrated, dropped out.
Sailed on Merchant ships and drove taxi cabs, got bored with that too.
Bought into a US flight school at at age 21 and got my CPL, IR and MEL in 1978.
DC-3 Captain 8 years later in St. Thomas, B-747 FO 2 years after that and B-747 Captain 1996.
Then on to a major airline in the US.
Long story but all doable. Never went to schools, English not the native language.
Hard work, good attitude and more hard work will do it.
Don't ever give up kids, you will get the god life and the good jobs if you really, really want it.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
The main problem as I see it is GLOSSY BROCHURES.
Selling pipe dreams to gullible teens and their parents.
The exact same problem exists in both The United States and Europe.
In America, they try to sell you on a four year university program.
They claim that 'The Majors' just love graduates for ______ University.
All your parents have to do is sign up for $180,000 in debt and your success is all but guaranteed.
In the United Kingdom I've seen the marketing from the Big 3.
All your parents have to do is sign up for 100,000 Pounds in debt and your success is all but guaranteed.
Yes, it does happen. People do some times get B737/A320 jobs straight out of school. And we are also interested in doing the same. But beware, this is not the best way of doing things.
Ports harbor talks about the dangers of glass cockpit and side stick controls as a primary trainers. All valid points. So why not take it a step further and learn true stick and rudder in a proverbial Aeronca Champ from a proverbial farmers field. What would be wrong with buying an aircraft and really learning how to fly it for about 500 hours.
How did I spend my day before flying lessons began after school. By cleaning spark plugs, gapping plugs to equal 19 thou gaps, and testing them so that they fire from all electrodes. Learning how to maintain an aircraft will give you a far better understanding of operating it.
TowerDog. I once couldn't get on a Eastern Metro Twin Otter from St Thomas to San Juan as they were all full. So I went over to the cargo side of the airport where I talked to Five Star DC-3 pilots who gave me and my girlfriend a lift to San Juan. At about 50 ft the co-pilot got out of his seat, and I flew it to San Juan and did the landing on runway 10. Wasn't by any chance you was it?
I firmly believe that ALL careers should start in The United States with a minimum of 200 flying hours.
Selling pipe dreams to gullible teens and their parents.
The exact same problem exists in both The United States and Europe.
In America, they try to sell you on a four year university program.
They claim that 'The Majors' just love graduates for ______ University.
All your parents have to do is sign up for $180,000 in debt and your success is all but guaranteed.
In the United Kingdom I've seen the marketing from the Big 3.
All your parents have to do is sign up for 100,000 Pounds in debt and your success is all but guaranteed.
Yes, it does happen. People do some times get B737/A320 jobs straight out of school. And we are also interested in doing the same. But beware, this is not the best way of doing things.
Ports harbor talks about the dangers of glass cockpit and side stick controls as a primary trainers. All valid points. So why not take it a step further and learn true stick and rudder in a proverbial Aeronca Champ from a proverbial farmers field. What would be wrong with buying an aircraft and really learning how to fly it for about 500 hours.
How did I spend my day before flying lessons began after school. By cleaning spark plugs, gapping plugs to equal 19 thou gaps, and testing them so that they fire from all electrodes. Learning how to maintain an aircraft will give you a far better understanding of operating it.
TowerDog. I once couldn't get on a Eastern Metro Twin Otter from St Thomas to San Juan as they were all full. So I went over to the cargo side of the airport where I talked to Five Star DC-3 pilots who gave me and my girlfriend a lift to San Juan. At about 50 ft the co-pilot got out of his seat, and I flew it to San Juan and did the landing on runway 10. Wasn't by any chance you was it?
I firmly believe that ALL careers should start in The United States with a minimum of 200 flying hours.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,846
Likes: 4
From: Bristol, England
The problem with the 'flight instruction to 1500 hours" idea is that is pryamidical. Suppose graduate 'A" has 200 hours, and needs 1300 more. He/she has to train 6.5 new pilots to make his hours, those 6.5 new pilots need 42.25 more, and on it goes. Its a ponzi concept. It won't work without a thriving GA industry where sub-1500 hour pilots can do air taxi work etc. as an alternative to flight instruction. That doesn't exist any more.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
From: UK
Portsharbour,
I wasn't having a go at you, I was just showing you the other side of the coin. I understand what you're saying, having a family in tow limits many options.
Anyhow, I think we've spoke before on PM and I hope you're well, as I know you to be a first rate bloke.
I'd like to see you flying again soon, if you're not already.
Good points you've raised on here. 😊👍🏻
I wasn't having a go at you, I was just showing you the other side of the coin. I understand what you're saying, having a family in tow limits many options.
Anyhow, I think we've spoke before on PM and I hope you're well, as I know you to be a first rate bloke.
I'd like to see you flying again soon, if you're not already.
Good points you've raised on here. 😊👍🏻
SkyGod
Joined: Aug 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,624
Likes: 107
From: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
TowerDog. I once couldn't get on a Eastern Metro Twin Otter from St Thomas to San Juan as they were all full. So I went over to the cargo side of the airport where I talked to Five Star DC-3 pilots who gave me and my girlfriend a lift to San Juan. At about 50 ft the co-pilot got out of his seat, and I flew it to San Juan and did the landing on runway 10. Wasn't by any chance you was it?
I did however fly for Eastern Metro Express on the Twin Otter from 10-86 to 2-88.
Flew DC-3s early 1986 for Aero Virgin Island and for Virgin Island International Airways in 1985.
Also flew for Virgin Air in 1985. (Branson bought out the name to avoid confusion, then they became Air St. Thomas, or St. Thomas Air.)
I knew the guys at Four Star, but did not work there, my ex did..
4 years in the islands flying often 100 hours a month and living on a sailboat. Good life.
Educated Hillbilly
Joined: Dec 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 13
From: From the Hills
Alex, as mentioned and I suspect you would know better than me; the old CAA route had a 700 hour requirement; that seemed to work well enough; though GA is shrinking is this country it is still vibrant enough to support a 700 hour requirement. I think the benefits of the re-introduction are evident. Also as Push Button mentioned if people don't want to instruct you could still fly the hours in some LAA tail-dragger over four years or so for the same price as a type rating.
Poose, no offence taken, discussions are about presenting the alternate argument; I have little desire to fly for an airline again, my career is taking a much more interesting direction. I am currently occupied by a role associated with managing the air-worthiness of an entire fleet of biz jets (trying to vague to retain anonymity).
That said I do want those that are flying in the airlines to have the background and experience that Towerdog and Button Push Ignored have shown.
I don't like the way the airline industry is moving, at least in the last 10 years the twin star to A320 brigade were flying with Captains from the Towerdog and Push Button Ignored generation. So at least there is a degree of experience transfer. But now we are seeing a point where the twin star generation are getting promoted to Captain; subsequently the twin-star generation are now training the twin star generation.
So even worse there will be the twin-star generation Captain flying with an FO from the MPL route; so two experts Airbus operators who will have little in the way of actual raw flying experience.
The FAA have addressed the issue with the 1500 rule; I would advocate a 700 rule for Europe.
While the original poster had good intentions to show you can achieve something from nothing; to me it highlights all the aspects that are wrong with the current system.
A few years back I didn't object to the SSTR route, and people will find past posts of mine where I said it was justified as it by-passed the low pay of instructing and turbo-prop flying. Since the Air France incident I have changed my mind on this, I believe everyone should get a good GA grounding first.
Poose, no offence taken, discussions are about presenting the alternate argument; I have little desire to fly for an airline again, my career is taking a much more interesting direction. I am currently occupied by a role associated with managing the air-worthiness of an entire fleet of biz jets (trying to vague to retain anonymity).
That said I do want those that are flying in the airlines to have the background and experience that Towerdog and Button Push Ignored have shown.
I don't like the way the airline industry is moving, at least in the last 10 years the twin star to A320 brigade were flying with Captains from the Towerdog and Push Button Ignored generation. So at least there is a degree of experience transfer. But now we are seeing a point where the twin star generation are getting promoted to Captain; subsequently the twin-star generation are now training the twin star generation.
So even worse there will be the twin-star generation Captain flying with an FO from the MPL route; so two experts Airbus operators who will have little in the way of actual raw flying experience.
The FAA have addressed the issue with the 1500 rule; I would advocate a 700 rule for Europe.
While the original poster had good intentions to show you can achieve something from nothing; to me it highlights all the aspects that are wrong with the current system.
A few years back I didn't object to the SSTR route, and people will find past posts of mine where I said it was justified as it by-passed the low pay of instructing and turbo-prop flying. Since the Air France incident I have changed my mind on this, I believe everyone should get a good GA grounding first.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Kids.
Tower Dogs story is fascinating, and you should listen.
Non English as a primary language, so I'm guessing Puerto Rican.
Flunked out of all schools, and didn't finish High School.
Worked merchant ship and taxi driver jobs.
Got into flying in the late 1970s.
Worked in the Islands flying all kinds of junk.
Worked his way up to Boeing 747 Captain. I'm guessing Evergreen, Polar, Kalitta.
Then joined the US Major airlines.
Don't tell me you can't make it.
If you can't you didn't try.
Nobody starts a rock band without wanting to be as big as The Beatles.
Nobody starts flying without wanting to join your favorite airline.
But if you don't quite make it all the way, you'll have great fun, and have the time of your life trying.
It's a big world out there, with lots of things to do.
Find your path, and follow your dreams.
Life is easier with a clear destination in mind.
Which brings me to another story.
I was a former aircraft engineering apprentice in the mid 1970s from a small village in England. I left for America during the deep recession in the early 1980s. By the early 1990s thru unbelievable good timing and luck I was a Captain at a major US airline.
My mother told me about her friends kid who was also a aircraft engineering apprentice for the same airline but ten years behind me from the same small village. He had been selected for the full scholarship program at Prestwick to become a pilot with that airline. He flunked out. He then went for some unbeknown reason to Zimbabwe to get a PPL and a CPL. Nothing ever good comes from going to Zimbabwe. With about 125 hours and no license to show for he he was back in the UK, and could I help?
So I sent him the Private Pilot written and oral test guide. My flight instructors license had lapsed, and didn't own a plane. But I fixed him up with a plane and an instructor. My exact words were 'be ready to take the written test the day after you come' 'we will take a few hours getting ready for the test, which you'll do next week'. 'you can stay with me, if you want whilst you hour build, but there are no schools around here to do an instrument rating as it's rural', 'so once you've got 200 hours we'll find you a school to go to and get a Comm/Inst/Multi'.
He was the laziest person I've ever come across. He had not even looked at the test question I had sent him. It took him six weeks to get a PPL as he only wanted to take one lesson a week and spend the rest of his time 'clubbing'. I couldn't wait to get rid of him. So much for interview selection processes.
The conversation has turned to 'Where are you supposed to get 1500 hours at in Europe?, and 'Why can't you flight instruct to 1500 hours in Europe?'
When I had my PPL in the UK in the late 1970s there were many flight instructors looking up at 300ft overcast wondering if they would ever get to 700 hours. There was a mechanic at the airline I worked for who had a very old Cessna 150 based in Florida that he rented out to other mechanics to hour build in. I flew that plane for about 120 hours in six weeks in Florida, when it had taken me one and a half years to get 120 hours in the UK. Things go quicker in America.
Tower Dogs story is fascinating, and you should listen.
Non English as a primary language, so I'm guessing Puerto Rican.
Flunked out of all schools, and didn't finish High School.
Worked merchant ship and taxi driver jobs.
Got into flying in the late 1970s.
Worked in the Islands flying all kinds of junk.
Worked his way up to Boeing 747 Captain. I'm guessing Evergreen, Polar, Kalitta.
Then joined the US Major airlines.
Don't tell me you can't make it.
If you can't you didn't try.
Nobody starts a rock band without wanting to be as big as The Beatles.
Nobody starts flying without wanting to join your favorite airline.
But if you don't quite make it all the way, you'll have great fun, and have the time of your life trying.
It's a big world out there, with lots of things to do.
Find your path, and follow your dreams.
Life is easier with a clear destination in mind.
Which brings me to another story.
I was a former aircraft engineering apprentice in the mid 1970s from a small village in England. I left for America during the deep recession in the early 1980s. By the early 1990s thru unbelievable good timing and luck I was a Captain at a major US airline.
My mother told me about her friends kid who was also a aircraft engineering apprentice for the same airline but ten years behind me from the same small village. He had been selected for the full scholarship program at Prestwick to become a pilot with that airline. He flunked out. He then went for some unbeknown reason to Zimbabwe to get a PPL and a CPL. Nothing ever good comes from going to Zimbabwe. With about 125 hours and no license to show for he he was back in the UK, and could I help?
So I sent him the Private Pilot written and oral test guide. My flight instructors license had lapsed, and didn't own a plane. But I fixed him up with a plane and an instructor. My exact words were 'be ready to take the written test the day after you come' 'we will take a few hours getting ready for the test, which you'll do next week'. 'you can stay with me, if you want whilst you hour build, but there are no schools around here to do an instrument rating as it's rural', 'so once you've got 200 hours we'll find you a school to go to and get a Comm/Inst/Multi'.
He was the laziest person I've ever come across. He had not even looked at the test question I had sent him. It took him six weeks to get a PPL as he only wanted to take one lesson a week and spend the rest of his time 'clubbing'. I couldn't wait to get rid of him. So much for interview selection processes.
The conversation has turned to 'Where are you supposed to get 1500 hours at in Europe?, and 'Why can't you flight instruct to 1500 hours in Europe?'
When I had my PPL in the UK in the late 1970s there were many flight instructors looking up at 300ft overcast wondering if they would ever get to 700 hours. There was a mechanic at the airline I worked for who had a very old Cessna 150 based in Florida that he rented out to other mechanics to hour build in. I flew that plane for about 120 hours in six weeks in Florida, when it had taken me one and a half years to get 120 hours in the UK. Things go quicker in America.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Gliding. I have huge respect for anybody who goes gliding, especially cross country gliding. By doing this you will truly learn the fine art of control. There is a glider in a trailer in my hangar which could be mine for the asking, or at least mine to use. I'm thinking about getting it for the kids. I see 100 hours of glider time as a real asset. I think winch tows are $10 and air tows are $40. The rest is free. Linden Nevada is a great place to learn how to glide.
A&P Mechanics school is also great place to get a career going in the right direction. The ONLY way to own an aircraft is have the knowledge to work on it yourself. It also gets you on to the right side of the fence where you meet people with planes. A&P school cost about $7000 and takes about 18 months and gives you 31 college credit hours.
In the US there are hundreds of cargo feeders all over the country. Planes like Cessna Caravans, Beech 1900s, Metroliners, Queen Airs. You fly late evening and early morning and have the rest of the day to yourself. You can study for a degree, flight instruct or pleasure fly all day.
Europeans can 'Pay to Play' to ride along and build time. I believe it's $35 an hour, of which $5 goes to the Captain. Check out Ameriflight, Key Lime Air, Martinaire, or (I don't know how to spell it, but it's a town in Minnesota) something like Bemidgi. They operate many ex US Army U-8 Seminoles (Queen Airs).
A&P Mechanics school is also great place to get a career going in the right direction. The ONLY way to own an aircraft is have the knowledge to work on it yourself. It also gets you on to the right side of the fence where you meet people with planes. A&P school cost about $7000 and takes about 18 months and gives you 31 college credit hours.
In the US there are hundreds of cargo feeders all over the country. Planes like Cessna Caravans, Beech 1900s, Metroliners, Queen Airs. You fly late evening and early morning and have the rest of the day to yourself. You can study for a degree, flight instruct or pleasure fly all day.
Europeans can 'Pay to Play' to ride along and build time. I believe it's $35 an hour, of which $5 goes to the Captain. Check out Ameriflight, Key Lime Air, Martinaire, or (I don't know how to spell it, but it's a town in Minnesota) something like Bemidgi. They operate many ex US Army U-8 Seminoles (Queen Airs).
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
BPI - motivation is the key. Our two favourite students were fishermen, who told us that they were hard workers. Well, they were right. The lowest mark between them was 93%, and they even got their ship's master to teach them spherical trig in the evenings after the fishing was done (if you thought the ATPL was bad, try a first mate's exam!).
Anyhow, one of them is flying, the other simply ran out of money otherwise I'm sure he would have made it too.
The moral of the story is that, if those guys can do it, nobody else has an excuse for not doing the work.
Neil Sedaka always said that there were plenty of people who could sing and play the piano much better than him, but they didn't have the ambition. So true.
Anyhow, one of them is flying, the other simply ran out of money otherwise I'm sure he would have made it too.
The moral of the story is that, if those guys can do it, nobody else has an excuse for not doing the work.
Neil Sedaka always said that there were plenty of people who could sing and play the piano much better than him, but they didn't have the ambition. So true.
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
From: EU
All this fluffy motivational talk is quite honestly making me depressed.
Just keep on trying they said, it's all about timing they said. You simply need to have the drive and motivation. Take anything you can and work your way up!
Reality has been an eye opener.. Maybe I should make a thread titled 'how I didn't do it' to balance this out. Just so all the wannabes can take their rose tinted glasses off for a moment.
Contacts meant nothing, grades meant nothing, flight records meant nothing, speaking multiple languages meant nothing, degrees meant nothing. It really is all about the money or just plain luck/timing. Sadly, I've run out of both. Now, in my early thirties, I've started to realise just how much the financial burden will affect my entire life.
It ain't all roses and sunshine lads.
Best of luck to those still willing to gamble it all. Just realise a not insignificant nr of cpl holders will rue the decision, and It can always be you!
Just keep on trying they said, it's all about timing they said. You simply need to have the drive and motivation. Take anything you can and work your way up!
Reality has been an eye opener.. Maybe I should make a thread titled 'how I didn't do it' to balance this out. Just so all the wannabes can take their rose tinted glasses off for a moment.
Contacts meant nothing, grades meant nothing, flight records meant nothing, speaking multiple languages meant nothing, degrees meant nothing. It really is all about the money or just plain luck/timing. Sadly, I've run out of both. Now, in my early thirties, I've started to realise just how much the financial burden will affect my entire life.
It ain't all roses and sunshine lads.
Best of luck to those still willing to gamble it all. Just realise a not insignificant nr of cpl holders will rue the decision, and It can always be you!
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Seventh Heaven.
I'm much more interested in recovery from failure, than success.
I have failed many times myself, but never gave up.
All I can put it down too is it wasn't the right place for you.
The United Kingdom didn't work out for me either.
It was 1980 after all, and it wasn't working out for 3 million others.
So I moved to The United States.
A British Airtours Boeing 707 with Rolls-Royce Conway engines was going to the scrap yard in Arizona and one-way tickets were going cheap.
The refueling stop was Tampa.
As I rode the bus over Tampa Bay bridge I had a epiphany moment.
This was the place for me, and I wasn't going back.
The 1980 America was a much different place than it is today.
But I absolutely loved it.
A Dutchman and a Dane showed me how to get along with the natives.
Others didn't adapt to it like I did, and left.
We went to town.
Every day was another adventure.
Every night, well, every night.
So what I'm saying to you is that if Germany isn't working out for you.
Then maybe Germany isn't right for you.
One of my friends was West German Air Force on Starfighters and Tornados in Arizona. He stayed after his tour was up, and is now a Captain with us.
America is screaming out for pilots with 1500 hours.
Think about coming over.
The US is going to, or may go thru a massive growth spurt soon.
The US may also go into total collapse, who knows?
What ever you do.
Don't give up.
I'm much more interested in recovery from failure, than success.
I have failed many times myself, but never gave up.
All I can put it down too is it wasn't the right place for you.
The United Kingdom didn't work out for me either.
It was 1980 after all, and it wasn't working out for 3 million others.
So I moved to The United States.
A British Airtours Boeing 707 with Rolls-Royce Conway engines was going to the scrap yard in Arizona and one-way tickets were going cheap.
The refueling stop was Tampa.
As I rode the bus over Tampa Bay bridge I had a epiphany moment.
This was the place for me, and I wasn't going back.
The 1980 America was a much different place than it is today.
But I absolutely loved it.
A Dutchman and a Dane showed me how to get along with the natives.
Others didn't adapt to it like I did, and left.
We went to town.
Every day was another adventure.
Every night, well, every night.
So what I'm saying to you is that if Germany isn't working out for you.
Then maybe Germany isn't right for you.
One of my friends was West German Air Force on Starfighters and Tornados in Arizona. He stayed after his tour was up, and is now a Captain with us.
America is screaming out for pilots with 1500 hours.
Think about coming over.
The US is going to, or may go thru a massive growth spurt soon.
The US may also go into total collapse, who knows?
What ever you do.
Don't give up.