How I did it! How you can do it!
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scaffolder to long haul wide body pilot, serious kudos and congratulations to you.
Perhaps we need to look at scaaffolders in a different way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJa7VzfWJQg
Perhaps we need to look at scaaffolders in a different way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJa7VzfWJQg
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice to see that you kept the sense of humour though I hope that you and the skipper treat the stewardesses better than Harry and Paul treat the women walking past their building site.
To be fair, looking at the weather at the moment I would not want to be a scaffolder for any money.
To be fair, looking at the weather at the moment I would not want to be a scaffolder for any money.
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Only strongest man it could survives in this crazy field, with excellent skills, clearly. Thank you A320baby to share your story, 'cause is really important to motivate everybody us, little wannabes XD.
Last edited by inabw; 25th Nov 2016 at 13:10.
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: go west
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Martin,
PPL and Frozen ATPL was funding by myself and i do not appreciate being insinuated as a
My family provided a roof over my head while I was completing the training. This thread was supposed to be aimed at wannabes that think their dream is not achievable due to personal circumstance. so if you have nothing constructive to say Bore off!
Guys Thank you for your PM's I've just got back from a layover and i'll reply within the next few hours
Cheers.
PPL and Frozen ATPL was funding by myself and i do not appreciate being insinuated as a
My family provided a roof over my head while I was completing the training. This thread was supposed to be aimed at wannabes that think their dream is not achievable due to personal circumstance. so if you have nothing constructive to say Bore off! Guys Thank you for your PM's I've just got back from a layover and i'll reply within the next few hours
Cheers.
Educated Hillbilly
A320 Baby, I don't want to take any credit from you, but achieving what you did while single and free from commitments and also been able to live at home while training actually makes it relatively "easy".
I have to frequently turn down interviews because the starting salary, the location simply is not workable with wife, kids and a mortgage with out getting divorced or going bankrupt, If I was single I would still be flying for a living. But congrats on the job.
I have to frequently turn down interviews because the starting salary, the location simply is not workable with wife, kids and a mortgage with out getting divorced or going bankrupt, If I was single I would still be flying for a living. But congrats on the job.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 28th Nov 2016 at 17:23.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very good point portsharbourflyer, I had to turn down an interview earlier this year as it was fairly short notice, my wife was working that day, could not get a shift change and we could not get reliable child care for our son at short notice. I asked for an alternative date but they just ditched me and gave the interview slot to someone else.
Though on the day of the interview I was unwell with a bad case of D&V so there was no way that I could complete the interview unless they were happy to hold it in a toilet!!!!!!!!
Though on the day of the interview I was unwell with a bad case of D&V so there was no way that I could complete the interview unless they were happy to hold it in a toilet!!!!!!!!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Portsharbourflyer,
There's also another way of looking at it.
Some of us have refrained from having their own place, girlfriend, wife, kids, dog, hamster etc... so they can follow this path.
All the while, putting our lives on hold for that elusive hint of a job.
Does that not require a greater sacrifice or self discipline?
Personally, I don't take on things I can't afford.
Emotionally or financially.
A320, I'm pretty sure I know who you are.
If you are, who I think you are, we have a few mutual friends.
There's also another way of looking at it.
Some of us have refrained from having their own place, girlfriend, wife, kids, dog, hamster etc... so they can follow this path.
All the while, putting our lives on hold for that elusive hint of a job.
Does that not require a greater sacrifice or self discipline?
Personally, I don't take on things I can't afford.
Emotionally or financially.
A320, I'm pretty sure I know who you are.
If you are, who I think you are, we have a few mutual friends.
Educated Hillbilly
Poose,
Sometimes some-things in life are not planned; my first child was not planned. Had I stayed in my first turboprop job I can guarantee I would have been divorced by now; I did full time instructing before the commitments arrived in life. In-fact that was my error, trying to do the instructor-turbo prop route because the low pay associated with that route is what made it unsustainable. Had I funded a jet type rating just after training then the chances are
by the time commitments arrived in life I would have been making a decent income so could have stayed flying. I have remained part time instructing and still normally get a couple of interviews each year but most rarely offer something that is sustainable.
I have travelled to Asia for interviews, I could go on, so don't think I haven't sacrificed things in life. I would have been on the property ladder ten years earlier had I not done the fATPL, so please don't insinuate that I haven't made sacrifices.
Also I wasn't prepared to see my wife and daughter live the early years in some dingy town centre flat (which the rent alone was over 50% of my FO take home pay) where a lot of the other flats were occupied by DHSS types while I was stuck down route.
A320baby, please could you explain how you juggled a child with all this, you mentioned you lived at home while doing the training? And you were in Poland for four years?
Did your partner and the son live with you in Poland? Again not all of us have partners that are understanding and are prepared to follow where the flying work is.
So the overall message here is funding a jet rating would have been the better route than FI-turboprop. In summary all your post reads as is, I lived at home to save money and got a job by funding an A320 rating; there is a lot of credibility what you have achieved but it is also far from the most onerous route that many have taken into aviation.
Sometimes some-things in life are not planned; my first child was not planned. Had I stayed in my first turboprop job I can guarantee I would have been divorced by now; I did full time instructing before the commitments arrived in life. In-fact that was my error, trying to do the instructor-turbo prop route because the low pay associated with that route is what made it unsustainable. Had I funded a jet type rating just after training then the chances are
by the time commitments arrived in life I would have been making a decent income so could have stayed flying. I have remained part time instructing and still normally get a couple of interviews each year but most rarely offer something that is sustainable.
I have travelled to Asia for interviews, I could go on, so don't think I haven't sacrificed things in life. I would have been on the property ladder ten years earlier had I not done the fATPL, so please don't insinuate that I haven't made sacrifices.
Also I wasn't prepared to see my wife and daughter live the early years in some dingy town centre flat (which the rent alone was over 50% of my FO take home pay) where a lot of the other flats were occupied by DHSS types while I was stuck down route.
A320baby, please could you explain how you juggled a child with all this, you mentioned you lived at home while doing the training? And you were in Poland for four years?
Did your partner and the son live with you in Poland? Again not all of us have partners that are understanding and are prepared to follow where the flying work is.
So the overall message here is funding a jet rating would have been the better route than FI-turboprop. In summary all your post reads as is, I lived at home to save money and got a job by funding an A320 rating; there is a lot of credibility what you have achieved but it is also far from the most onerous route that many have taken into aviation.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 29th Nov 2016 at 23:27.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Portsharbour,
Some of us still aren't on the property ladder and have ended up with absolutely nothing, well into our mid thirties - all because of flying.
With all due respect and it's not an attack on you, but I just tire of how patronising people with children can be at times. I don't believe in 'unplanned' children either...
I've seen that card played by the opposite sex too many times.
I'm sure you've put a lot into this, I don't doubt that. Never questioned it.
But don't think that the single lads have it easy. Some of us have given up everything and are gutted at some of the relationships that have not been pursued or fell by the wayside in order to finally get that flying job. Only now, starting life at a snails pace on meagre turboprop wages while your friends are all a decade ahead of you in life.
That gets you down at times.
Not attacking you, just telling an other side of the tale.
It's very hard being a parent while doing this, I hear that. But it can be just as hard on other people, albeit in different ways.
Some of us still aren't on the property ladder and have ended up with absolutely nothing, well into our mid thirties - all because of flying.
With all due respect and it's not an attack on you, but I just tire of how patronising people with children can be at times. I don't believe in 'unplanned' children either...
I've seen that card played by the opposite sex too many times.
I'm sure you've put a lot into this, I don't doubt that. Never questioned it.
But don't think that the single lads have it easy. Some of us have given up everything and are gutted at some of the relationships that have not been pursued or fell by the wayside in order to finally get that flying job. Only now, starting life at a snails pace on meagre turboprop wages while your friends are all a decade ahead of you in life.
That gets you down at times.
Not attacking you, just telling an other side of the tale.
It's very hard being a parent while doing this, I hear that. But it can be just as hard on other people, albeit in different ways.
Educated Hillbilly
Poose, I have no wish to start any arguments and normally I prefer to keep my posts more constructive and less personal; but it still stands when you get invited to an interview in South Africa or some far away place it is more readily achievable if you are single.
While the job done (scaffolder) to raise the money was a physically demanding difficult job which deserves a lot of credit in itself; when a post is entitled this is "how I did it this is how you can do it", I was expecting to read some story about a hangar rat working his way up through working at flying clubs, doing air taxi, night freight in 1950s turboprops then to an airliner. But when the overall jist of the story is someone living at home with the parents, saved money and paid for a type rating it is a touch watered down in my opinion.
But I suppose it has shown a route than can work if you are under 24 and can stick living with the parents.
While the job done (scaffolder) to raise the money was a physically demanding difficult job which deserves a lot of credit in itself; when a post is entitled this is "how I did it this is how you can do it", I was expecting to read some story about a hangar rat working his way up through working at flying clubs, doing air taxi, night freight in 1950s turboprops then to an airliner. But when the overall jist of the story is someone living at home with the parents, saved money and paid for a type rating it is a touch watered down in my opinion.
But I suppose it has shown a route than can work if you are under 24 and can stick living with the parents.
Educated Hillbilly
Push button, every single A320 pilot is using some of my work every single day, so please do refrain from making puerile comments when you know nothing about my background.
Further you are based in the US from your profile; the 1500 rule in place means 200 hour pilots are not allowed to undertake part 25 type ratings, so in the US the route taken by the original poster would not have been possible under current rules. So I don't feel a US based poster has much right to comment on something in EASA land.
Pushbutton; the point I am trying to make is a lot of people do not have the luxury to live at home while undertaking modular pilot training; over a 18 month period the additional cost of living along side training in the UK would easily amount to 10000 pounds plus; not to mention not living at home previous to this would also limit the ability to save. The title of the post was this "How you can do it", while a good percentage of those reading are in the 16 to 22 age bracket and there are also a number of late twenties / early thirties even forties career changers who read this and the described route by the original poster would hold little relevance.
If you are at the pinnacle of this profession one would have thought you could have presented a more rational coherent argument rather than simple insults.
Further you are based in the US from your profile; the 1500 rule in place means 200 hour pilots are not allowed to undertake part 25 type ratings, so in the US the route taken by the original poster would not have been possible under current rules. So I don't feel a US based poster has much right to comment on something in EASA land.
Pushbutton; the point I am trying to make is a lot of people do not have the luxury to live at home while undertaking modular pilot training; over a 18 month period the additional cost of living along side training in the UK would easily amount to 10000 pounds plus; not to mention not living at home previous to this would also limit the ability to save. The title of the post was this "How you can do it", while a good percentage of those reading are in the 16 to 22 age bracket and there are also a number of late twenties / early thirties even forties career changers who read this and the described route by the original poster would hold little relevance.
If you are at the pinnacle of this profession one would have thought you could have presented a more rational coherent argument rather than simple insults.
Educated Hillbilly
Push button;
I have good reasons to take a negative vibe on this post? This original post actually represents quite a few negative aspects of the industry.
You are aware of the Air France Incident aren't you? A contributory cause of that incident was the fact the two pilots up front despite having lots of hours essentially went form ab intio training straight to an Airbus with little experience of flying anything else. The fact a lot of cadets are now training on twin stars means they are no longer acquiring traditional instrument flying skills; so no I will not positively endorse any one who goes from a Twin Star straight to an Airbus without attempting to build some alternative flying experience.
Our poster has a lot of experience flying an Airbus but has little experience of flying anything that is challenging and demanding.
As far as I am concerned every twin star trained cadet going to an Airbus is increasing the probability of another Air France incident.
Everyone on this forum a few years back use to flame anyone who did a self sponsored type rating; all the experienced pilots use to say, go instruct, go fly turbo-props don't pay for a type. As said I don't disapprove of SSTR as such, but neither should anyone who has entered the industry by such a route really be praised or celebrated.
The original poster has merely gone through a system available to him and there is a lot of credit due. But at the same time the inference of this post is encouraging and telling wannabes to just go and pay for an A320 type rating. So push is this really want you want to encourage and endorse.
Are you aware of the harm Self Sponsored type ratings have done to the industry?
Firstly the poster obtained his first job by paying for a type rating? That is what wizz air do,they run SSTR schemes. I don't object to people paying for type ratings but irrespective of the how the money was obtained it means the job was not obtained on merit or experience but merely on the ability to pay for rating.
But the consequence of the proliferation of SSTR schemes means a lot of instructors
and experienced turbo-prop pilots have been unable to move on while Airlines have elected instead to employ low hours candidates through self sponsored training schemes.
Secondly people training on a twin star and transferring straight to an airbus means they will have never have done any flying that develops actual raw flying skill.
A lot will say that with modern airliners traditional skills are irrelevant; well look at the Air France incident.
Push tell me when your family is in the back of an Airliner and the systems kick out please tell me who you want up front, Chelsey Sullenburger some one with experience; who are you happy to have a couple of people who just paid there way into the industry and have never actually experience flying anything more than a twinstar and an airbus.
I hope EASA follows the FAA route and brings in an hours requirement for the sake of future flight safety.
I am not been negative out of personal bitterness I am talking on behalf of a lot of other instructors and turbo prop pilots that have attempted to build experience, develop, learn the trade and who haven't just paid their way into the industry.
I have good reasons to take a negative vibe on this post? This original post actually represents quite a few negative aspects of the industry.
You are aware of the Air France Incident aren't you? A contributory cause of that incident was the fact the two pilots up front despite having lots of hours essentially went form ab intio training straight to an Airbus with little experience of flying anything else. The fact a lot of cadets are now training on twin stars means they are no longer acquiring traditional instrument flying skills; so no I will not positively endorse any one who goes from a Twin Star straight to an Airbus without attempting to build some alternative flying experience.
Our poster has a lot of experience flying an Airbus but has little experience of flying anything that is challenging and demanding.
As far as I am concerned every twin star trained cadet going to an Airbus is increasing the probability of another Air France incident.
Everyone on this forum a few years back use to flame anyone who did a self sponsored type rating; all the experienced pilots use to say, go instruct, go fly turbo-props don't pay for a type. As said I don't disapprove of SSTR as such, but neither should anyone who has entered the industry by such a route really be praised or celebrated.
The original poster has merely gone through a system available to him and there is a lot of credit due. But at the same time the inference of this post is encouraging and telling wannabes to just go and pay for an A320 type rating. So push is this really want you want to encourage and endorse.
Are you aware of the harm Self Sponsored type ratings have done to the industry?
Firstly the poster obtained his first job by paying for a type rating? That is what wizz air do,they run SSTR schemes. I don't object to people paying for type ratings but irrespective of the how the money was obtained it means the job was not obtained on merit or experience but merely on the ability to pay for rating.
But the consequence of the proliferation of SSTR schemes means a lot of instructors
and experienced turbo-prop pilots have been unable to move on while Airlines have elected instead to employ low hours candidates through self sponsored training schemes.
Secondly people training on a twin star and transferring straight to an airbus means they will have never have done any flying that develops actual raw flying skill.
A lot will say that with modern airliners traditional skills are irrelevant; well look at the Air France incident.
Push tell me when your family is in the back of an Airliner and the systems kick out please tell me who you want up front, Chelsey Sullenburger some one with experience; who are you happy to have a couple of people who just paid there way into the industry and have never actually experience flying anything more than a twinstar and an airbus.
I hope EASA follows the FAA route and brings in an hours requirement for the sake of future flight safety.
I am not been negative out of personal bitterness I am talking on behalf of a lot of other instructors and turbo prop pilots that have attempted to build experience, develop, learn the trade and who haven't just paid their way into the industry.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 1st Dec 2016 at 17:54.
Educated Hillbilly
"Instrument rating: duration 5 weeks. This was the course everyone feared, in fact I throughly enjoyed the IR, I seemed to gel with the instrument flying. Majority was flown in the DA42 and the DA42 sim. Passed first time"
You did your initial IR on a twinstar: Go back do the IR in an analogue Seneca 1; then tell me you gelled with instrument flying. Then you will realise why people dreaded the IR course. The above shows this Twin Star to Airbus generation has no comprehension of the limitations of the training route they have followed.
This is what concerns me.
Certainly do not want some one who isn't aware of his limitations up front. This is the exact reason why I have concerns for the Twinstar to Airbus generation.
You did your initial IR on a twinstar: Go back do the IR in an analogue Seneca 1; then tell me you gelled with instrument flying. Then you will realise why people dreaded the IR course. The above shows this Twin Star to Airbus generation has no comprehension of the limitations of the training route they have followed.
This is what concerns me.
Certainly do not want some one who isn't aware of his limitations up front. This is the exact reason why I have concerns for the Twinstar to Airbus generation.
Educated Hillbilly
The training regime you have suggested your children will go through sounds excellent and it is that kind of training route that needs to be encouraged.
Agreed the Airbus side-stick was also a major factor in the Air-france incident. But I do still feel that had the two pilots involved had an instructional background (where they would have been teaching stalling frequently) the out-come would have been different. I know it is easy to sit here on the ground and criticise an incident and one can never tell how I would have reacted personally in that situation, but ever more systems reliability and procedures seem to potentially compensate for lack of basics.
Glad to hear procedure have been changed, but surely unreliable airspeed is back to basics, set power, set attitude.
Push button, it was not my intention to argue with you or discredit A320B; but I don't feel that any more 200 hours straight to Airbus is a something that the industry needs.
Agreed the Airbus side-stick was also a major factor in the Air-france incident. But I do still feel that had the two pilots involved had an instructional background (where they would have been teaching stalling frequently) the out-come would have been different. I know it is easy to sit here on the ground and criticise an incident and one can never tell how I would have reacted personally in that situation, but ever more systems reliability and procedures seem to potentially compensate for lack of basics.
Glad to hear procedure have been changed, but surely unreliable airspeed is back to basics, set power, set attitude.
Push button, it was not my intention to argue with you or discredit A320B; but I don't feel that any more 200 hours straight to Airbus is a something that the industry needs.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The kind of training regime that pushbuttonignored has got line up for his kids is truly exceptional. His kids are truly fortunate, sadly not everyone is fortunate to have a father who owns an aircraft, instructs them and has contacts who can hook them up with employment right up to jet work. Any of us would do the same for our kids if we were in that situation, I am sure push has ensured that his kids are well balanced and appreciate their privileged situation. I wish them luck as they develop into professional and competent crew.
Last edited by magicmick; 2nd Dec 2016 at 10:41.