Which modular school to choose ?
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Lille
Hello KayPam,
Have you been able to select a school since your last message?
I read all the thread and found it very interesting. I'm asking myself some of the same questions.
I failed ENAC's selection this year but I have all requirements to start the CPL/IRME and MCC/JOC.
Have you been able to select a school since your last message?
I read all the thread and found it very interesting. I'm asking myself some of the same questions.
I failed ENAC's selection this year but I have all requirements to start the CPL/IRME and MCC/JOC.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 507
Likes: 1
From: France
Update one year later :
I started a few weeks ago my IR training, competency based, with an airclub and the nearest FTO.
This should give me an IR-SE by the end of may 2018.
From there, I will only need 25 to 30 hours in a DA-42 to get a CPL + IR-ME.
So right now I'm looking for a school who could provide me with just that.
All of this is because I have a new job that could provide me with very interesting opportunities in the future. However this job won't allow me taking several months off to train. Luckily, I know at least one school who can train me for the CPL + IR ME (IR SE to IR ME in 5 hours of training) in just 2 to 3 weeks.
What are the cheapest schools available ? Poland maybe ?
What are the most reputable schools that would allow to train just for CPL + 5 hours of IR SE to IR ME ?
Thank you
I started a few weeks ago my IR training, competency based, with an airclub and the nearest FTO.
This should give me an IR-SE by the end of may 2018.
From there, I will only need 25 to 30 hours in a DA-42 to get a CPL + IR-ME.
So right now I'm looking for a school who could provide me with just that.
All of this is because I have a new job that could provide me with very interesting opportunities in the future. However this job won't allow me taking several months off to train. Luckily, I know at least one school who can train me for the CPL + IR ME (IR SE to IR ME in 5 hours of training) in just 2 to 3 weeks.
What are the cheapest schools available ? Poland maybe ?
What are the most reputable schools that would allow to train just for CPL + 5 hours of IR SE to IR ME ?
Thank you
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 110
Likes: 2
From: all over Europe
Any thoughts or facts on which unemployability factors he/they refer to? What disqualifies people?
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
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From: N/A
[QUOTE=KayPam;9683483]Cheapest vs most expensive training : do they really provide better training ?
Hello
I have a very simple question.
Bartolini advertises 17500€ for CPL + MEIR
The same is 7k more at DFAS
The same is 50% more at a normal french or english school
The same is twice as much (or even a bit more) at CTC aviation.
Can one really say that there will be a noticeable difference in flying skills between students of all these different schools ?
Does is have any impact whatsoever on one's ability to find a job ?
I also have the same question, for MCC/JOC
MCC/JOC at the cheapest vs CTC/FTE : is the difference more noticeable ?
Could one argue about a school being at an optimum opportunities/price ratio ?
Thanks[/QUOTE
This is not a very simple question.
It is the question of the ages, and is the whole point of this web site.
But this is the Million Dollar (or £, or €) question.
And the answer is NO.
It’s not the flight school, or the training.
IT’S YOU.
How do you stack up as a person, how do you carry yourself.
What is your personality, and yes, how do you look.
It’s all important. There are a million and one factors.
But from my experience, it come down to just one or two things.
“Would I like to work a 12 day pairing for two months with this person.“
When we are all dog tired and grumpy, and the worlds just giving you grief.
Do you have a pleasant demeanor, or would you add to the frustration of it all.
And “Would I communicate and work through problems for the greater good with this person.”
The SH** has just hit the fan. Are you ready? Together we have to save our world and I need you. Can I count on you?
Only you know how to answer this.
Be honest with yourself.
Because you will be interviewed by both Human Resources and Flight Operations.
They can see right through a phony.
But I also disagree with The above comment that 50% are unemployable.
Aviation is a vast industry, suitable for most. Not everybody is suitable as an airline pilot. But not being one, doesn’t in my opinion make you any less of pilot.
I’d like to see an airline pilot try fly a piston engines twin without an autopilot and flight director single pilot. Have them also handle everything else from loading to load planning to flight planning. Personally I found the hardest plane to fly well was a Cessna 421 in air taxi operations. My hardest job was in a Swerlingen Merlin in corporate operations. I felt like I was hanging on to the elevators by my finger nails.
But If you absolutely love it, don’t let anybody or anything stand in your way.
Hello
I have a very simple question.
Bartolini advertises 17500€ for CPL + MEIR
The same is 7k more at DFAS
The same is 50% more at a normal french or english school
The same is twice as much (or even a bit more) at CTC aviation.
Can one really say that there will be a noticeable difference in flying skills between students of all these different schools ?
Does is have any impact whatsoever on one's ability to find a job ?
I also have the same question, for MCC/JOC
MCC/JOC at the cheapest vs CTC/FTE : is the difference more noticeable ?
Could one argue about a school being at an optimum opportunities/price ratio ?
Thanks[/QUOTE
This is not a very simple question.
It is the question of the ages, and is the whole point of this web site.
But this is the Million Dollar (or £, or €) question.
And the answer is NO.
It’s not the flight school, or the training.
IT’S YOU.
How do you stack up as a person, how do you carry yourself.
What is your personality, and yes, how do you look.
It’s all important. There are a million and one factors.
But from my experience, it come down to just one or two things.
“Would I like to work a 12 day pairing for two months with this person.“
When we are all dog tired and grumpy, and the worlds just giving you grief.
Do you have a pleasant demeanor, or would you add to the frustration of it all.
And “Would I communicate and work through problems for the greater good with this person.”
The SH** has just hit the fan. Are you ready? Together we have to save our world and I need you. Can I count on you?
Only you know how to answer this.
Be honest with yourself.
Because you will be interviewed by both Human Resources and Flight Operations.
They can see right through a phony.
But I also disagree with The above comment that 50% are unemployable.
Aviation is a vast industry, suitable for most. Not everybody is suitable as an airline pilot. But not being one, doesn’t in my opinion make you any less of pilot.
I’d like to see an airline pilot try fly a piston engines twin without an autopilot and flight director single pilot. Have them also handle everything else from loading to load planning to flight planning. Personally I found the hardest plane to fly well was a Cessna 421 in air taxi operations. My hardest job was in a Swerlingen Merlin in corporate operations. I felt like I was hanging on to the elevators by my finger nails.
But If you absolutely love it, don’t let anybody or anything stand in your way.
Last edited by button push ignored; 28th December 2017 at 21:26.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,846
Likes: 4
From: Bristol, England
You have to read Andy O'Shea's statement as "50% are fundamentally unemployable by Ryanair's standards" and there is no doubt that employment standards vary across the industry. Anyone who has ever seen Ryanair's training system in operation is likely to agree, however, that they are very good. They are not alone in that, but their support and attention to detail are impressive.
His point and mine would be that piloting is one of the few professions where you can gain the base qualification without any effective filtering. In the days where no attention was paid to CRM many pilots were hired that were completely unsuitable for working in a multi-crew cockpit by modern standards, the classic example would be the flight crew of the KLM aircraft in the Tenerife disaster, but many many lesser examples exist who haven't killed anybody yet. Ryanair and most modern airlines train to the ICAO competencies which are listed on page 65 and 66 of this IATA document. There are seven:
*Application of procedures
*Communication
*Aircraft flight path management - automatic
*Aircraft flight path management - manual
*Leadership and teamwork
*Problem solving and decision making
*Situation awareness
*Workload management
The fact that you hold a licence only directly relates to one of these, Aircraft flight path management - manual. Deficiencies in any of the other areas make you less likely to be hired. Button Push is correct in a way, many people already have these qualities, acquired in early life or in previous employment, but many do not, hence the high fail rate.
To some extent these competencies can be trained, and this is where the benefit of a good course at an ATO that understands these things kicks in. There is an evident problem, though, and that is that it costs considerably less to just train Bloggs to pass the flight test and, there being no economic incentive for flight schools to train properly, most do not.
I don't think that Bartolini would claim to do more than supply the CPL\IR training to a high standard and a reasonable cost. To the best of my knowledge they have no pre-selection and like most others do not train to the full set of competencies, they will train you well to get through the test. FTE and DFAS would have to be seen in the same light, high quality ATOs doing a job. Of course you can go elsewhere, there are ATOs that are rubbish, they won't schedule your training properly, the instructors don't care, there's a lack of lack of standardisation, poor maintenance standards, easy flight tests because of poor local examiners/lack of interest from the regulatory Authority, etc., etc.. The thing is that the poor ATOs are not measurably cheaper. If they were you could perhaps tolerate the poor service. I think the recommendations for CPL/IR ATOs have to be seen in that light, will they do the job you are paying them for, and do it well?
His point and mine would be that piloting is one of the few professions where you can gain the base qualification without any effective filtering. In the days where no attention was paid to CRM many pilots were hired that were completely unsuitable for working in a multi-crew cockpit by modern standards, the classic example would be the flight crew of the KLM aircraft in the Tenerife disaster, but many many lesser examples exist who haven't killed anybody yet. Ryanair and most modern airlines train to the ICAO competencies which are listed on page 65 and 66 of this IATA document. There are seven:
*Application of procedures
*Communication
*Aircraft flight path management - automatic
*Aircraft flight path management - manual
*Leadership and teamwork
*Problem solving and decision making
*Situation awareness
*Workload management
The fact that you hold a licence only directly relates to one of these, Aircraft flight path management - manual. Deficiencies in any of the other areas make you less likely to be hired. Button Push is correct in a way, many people already have these qualities, acquired in early life or in previous employment, but many do not, hence the high fail rate.
To some extent these competencies can be trained, and this is where the benefit of a good course at an ATO that understands these things kicks in. There is an evident problem, though, and that is that it costs considerably less to just train Bloggs to pass the flight test and, there being no economic incentive for flight schools to train properly, most do not.
I don't think that Bartolini would claim to do more than supply the CPL\IR training to a high standard and a reasonable cost. To the best of my knowledge they have no pre-selection and like most others do not train to the full set of competencies, they will train you well to get through the test. FTE and DFAS would have to be seen in the same light, high quality ATOs doing a job. Of course you can go elsewhere, there are ATOs that are rubbish, they won't schedule your training properly, the instructors don't care, there's a lack of lack of standardisation, poor maintenance standards, easy flight tests because of poor local examiners/lack of interest from the regulatory Authority, etc., etc.. The thing is that the poor ATOs are not measurably cheaper. If they were you could perhaps tolerate the poor service. I think the recommendations for CPL/IR ATOs have to be seen in that light, will they do the job you are paying them for, and do it well?
Last edited by Alex Whittingham; 23rd December 2017 at 10:40.
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
From: EGHH
There are ATOs that are rubbish, they won't schedule your training properly, the instructors don't care, there's a lack of lack of standardisation, poor maintenance standards, easy flight tests because of poor local examiners/lack of interest from the regulatory Authority, etc., etc.. The thing is that the poor ATOs are not measurably cheaper. If they were you could perhaps tolerate the poor service.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,846
Likes: 4
From: Bristol, England
I'd love to, but I can't run an ATO down by name, these are our competitors. We can only name the good ones and leave you to notice which ones no-one recommends. Doesn't stop people though, how many times have you seen posts like "have been looking at dodgypetes ATO and thinking of spending £20K. Lots of negative reviews, has anyone been there recently?"
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: London
Hi Aviators,
I am looking to start my CPL ME and IR with Bartolini ASAP but they're giving me January 2019 start. They were saying there are student with March/April 2018 start that are willing to give away their start date. If anyone know such individuals, it would be a great help. Many thanks
I am looking to start my CPL ME and IR with Bartolini ASAP but they're giving me January 2019 start. They were saying there are student with March/April 2018 start that are willing to give away their start date. If anyone know such individuals, it would be a great help. Many thanks
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Dubai
Hello there,
I'm a 27 year old Indian citizen, currently working in Dubai and have no prior flight experience. I'm planning to start my flight training in modular way by end of this year and intended to complete it in maximum of 3 years (I'll be doing the training during my work vacations, which I could get up to 2 months per year). It would be great, if anyone could help me with inputs on the following.
-Thanks to all lovely people out there who are helping others by sharing information .
I'm a 27 year old Indian citizen, currently working in Dubai and have no prior flight experience. I'm planning to start my flight training in modular way by end of this year and intended to complete it in maximum of 3 years (I'll be doing the training during my work vacations, which I could get up to 2 months per year). It would be great, if anyone could help me with inputs on the following.
- Suggest me some good modular schools in Europe which will give good training and has experience of handling modular candidates. Cost is also a factor.
- How to find the first Airline job after the training? Will the ATOs help in the placements? As I understand, being an Indian citizen it would be get an airline job in European Airlines (maybe I'm wrong). I found that many European ATOs are looking for EU nationals to be in their placement programs. I'm okay to work anywhere since I'm willing to move to a new place.
-Thanks to all lovely people out there who are helping others by sharing information .
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
From: England
Hi.
Firstly tell us where you have the right to live and work. There are plenty of good modular schools in Europe but if you don't have the right to live and work in Europe you would be wasting your time training for an EASA license.
Firstly tell us where you have the right to live and work. There are plenty of good modular schools in Europe but if you don't have the right to live and work in Europe you would be wasting your time training for an EASA license.
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Dubai
- I heard that one could easily convert EASA licence to Middle Eastern GCCA and Indian DGCA licences where I could work. And, many middle eastern airlines are hiring fresh pilots from European ATOs.
- Also I heard that there are many ATOs that are good at handling modular students.
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: Europe
I'm talking about the content. They were obviously written by a non-native English speaker who is not a pilot. Due to the choice of font, they are not easy to read for long periods, and although the graphics look nice, many are actually quite confusing.
I know of at least two people who bought a full set and sent them right back. You will definitely need some alternative reading material, or good classroom instruction.
I know of at least two people who bought a full set and sent them right back. You will definitely need some alternative reading material, or good classroom instruction.
