Which modular school to choose ?
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
I'm talking about the content. They were obviously written by a non-native English speaker who is not a pilot. Due to the choice of font, they are not easy to read for long periods, and although the graphics look nice, many are actually quite confusing.
I know of at least two people who bought a full set and sent them right back. You will definitely need some alternative reading material, or good classroom instruction.
I know of at least two people who bought a full set and sent them right back. You will definitely need some alternative reading material, or good classroom instruction.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 507
Likes: 1
From: France
I guess it actually is possible to buy my own books from whomever I want and subscribe for an online, whose online books I won't read !
I can even buy the books now, and pay the larger amount of money (subscription, about 2100€ with ESMA) later !
Maybe I will tell that to the ESMA.
Especially if I can find books at a discount elsewhere !
I guess Bristol ground school has some good material ?
Could I buy them directly from them or is it readily possible to find second hand at a lower price ?
Edit :
https://www.bristol.gs/product/atpla-manuals-cbt/
This is hugely expensive. Who the
pays 150£ for a simple book ?
My uncle wrote a theoretical book about music, which became a reference in its micro-domain. There were 5 volumes, each about as thick as one 150£ ATPL book, but required much more time of preparation. These are found between 30-50€ on amazon, that is a reasonable price...
I can even buy the books now, and pay the larger amount of money (subscription, about 2100€ with ESMA) later !
Maybe I will tell that to the ESMA.
Especially if I can find books at a discount elsewhere !
I guess Bristol ground school has some good material ?
Could I buy them directly from them or is it readily possible to find second hand at a lower price ?
Edit :
https://www.bristol.gs/product/atpla-manuals-cbt/
This is hugely expensive. Who the
pays 150£ for a simple book ?My uncle wrote a theoretical book about music, which became a reference in its micro-domain. There were 5 volumes, each about as thick as one 150£ ATPL book, but required much more time of preparation. These are found between 30-50€ on amazon, that is a reasonable price...
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 487
Likes: 42
From: Doha
A key sign of how good someone's product is, is when they don't care if you go elsewhere. It's like Rolls Royce and Bently. They don't care if you want to buy a cheaper car. You get what you pay for. Simple as that. Buy cheap, possibly buy twice.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 507
Likes: 1
From: France
150€ for a quality book is not expensive, at all. Consider yourself lucky you're not going to uni! If you, for example, would have picked a proper metallurgy book you would probably pay over 300€. Your uncle's book is cheap because it's about music..
There are plenty of people selling their books after they're done. Just browse around, or try to meet people at schools and ask around. They'll be happy to help.
Honestly, you're spending 50 000+ for training, 150 for a book really isn't all that expensive.
Also, you're asking a lot of questions about flight training, which is GREAT!!! But try to talk to people in real life as well. We're all strangers on the internet. Some are glorified wannabes thinking they know everything there and defend their choices, some are experienced pilots just looking to help, others are trying to sell you something, etc. In the end, you gotta trust your own instinct and opinion!
There are plenty of people selling their books after they're done. Just browse around, or try to meet people at schools and ask around. They'll be happy to help.
Honestly, you're spending 50 000+ for training, 150 for a book really isn't all that expensive.
Also, you're asking a lot of questions about flight training, which is GREAT!!! But try to talk to people in real life as well. We're all strangers on the internet. Some are glorified wannabes thinking they know everything there and defend their choices, some are experienced pilots just looking to help, others are trying to sell you something, etc. In the end, you gotta trust your own instinct and opinion!
The French one printed its own books, and sold them at the bare minimum price, about 7€ per book. The authors were our teachers
The Australian one did not require books at all so this example is on a different level.
But ok, there is a market price and it is quite high.
Would there be any other comment on the Jeppesen books quality ?
It would really make my life easier if they were good : the ESMA will provide the electronic version, and it could prove useful to have both the electronic and paper version of the books. (I could work on the pdf files at work and on the books at home)
What about the age of the books ?
I can find a 2013 complete set for 300€
Is it too old ?
Thanks
Last edited by KayPam; 10th November 2016 at 18:02.
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
From: EU
2013 is not too old. Those books are absolutely fine.
Nothing has changed since then. The learning objectives are still the same. 90% of the exam questions are still the same
Aerodynamics are Aerodynamics. A piston engine still obeys the same laws. Hell, even airlaw does not change. This is high school level stuff - It's just a lot.
Don't worry about it. The only differences between these yearly revisions are basically spelling, grammar, and the occasional image/graph. You won't miss out on anything by using an older book.
--- /incoming personal rant
Self published books, in an academic/scientific context, written by your own teachers, are worthless.
There are no authorities in science. You are judged on the merits of your arguments. Nobody knows everything, nobody has up-to-date knowledge on everything. Nobody has time for that. That's why we let the academic community/market forces decide on what's good teaching material and what's not.
So I seriously doubt you attended a top uni, or majored in anything scientific or otherwise in constant flux.
There is a reason you won't find many french universities in the yearly top 100 rankings.
Note that I am not saying a 300€ book is inherently better than a 50€ book. I'm also not saying government funded universities or books are bad.
/end rant. I get seriously triggered by this nonsense.
Nothing has changed since then. The learning objectives are still the same. 90% of the exam questions are still the same
Aerodynamics are Aerodynamics. A piston engine still obeys the same laws. Hell, even airlaw does not change. This is high school level stuff - It's just a lot.
Don't worry about it. The only differences between these yearly revisions are basically spelling, grammar, and the occasional image/graph. You won't miss out on anything by using an older book.
--- /incoming personal rant
Self published books, in an academic/scientific context, written by your own teachers, are worthless.
There are no authorities in science. You are judged on the merits of your arguments. Nobody knows everything, nobody has up-to-date knowledge on everything. Nobody has time for that. That's why we let the academic community/market forces decide on what's good teaching material and what's not.
So I seriously doubt you attended a top uni, or majored in anything scientific or otherwise in constant flux.
There is a reason you won't find many french universities in the yearly top 100 rankings.
Note that I am not saying a 300€ book is inherently better than a 50€ book. I'm also not saying government funded universities or books are bad.
/end rant. I get seriously triggered by this nonsense.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 507
Likes: 1
From: France
Ok for the theoretical ATPL
What do you mean by "in constant flux" ?
For the personnal rant : oh my god there it is !! The clash between the French idea of top education and the Anglosaxon (are you English? American?) idea of top education ! The first time I have the opportunity to fight it !
Really, it depends on what you expect of them.
Sure, if you want to publish the best thesis of the academic year, master's degree books from a teacher that discovered the subject when he got his tenure will not be enough.
However if you just want a scientific job, they will be perfect.
Basically, I'd sum it up by saying that the French dean want its students to know nothing about everything, whereas the Anglosaxon dean want its students to know everything about nothing.
Some knowledge of many domains vs highly specialised knowledge of only one domain
Subsequently, the French dean does not really care if the book is not up to date nor the best.
Would you like to see a scan of my degree ?
I attended one of 3 best engineering school in France. It is between 100th and 150th on QS ranking, the best one is Polytechnique which is ranked ~50 in QS ranking.
Note that this is despite the fact that the criteria of the QS ranking are not adapted at all for French engineering schools.
The reason is the following :
QS ranking is based on research, and size, whereas French schools like to be small and very numerous, and like to educate engineers, not ph doctors (an engineering degree from ecole polytechnique is really the top scientific diploma you can get in France, it is far far better on the job market than having a Phd from a normal uni, even the best according to QS, which is UPMC)
When I was there, I was "specialized" in aerospace engineering, but had classes in many many domains, such as finance, economy, thermal engineering, statistics, algorithmics and programming, hell, even biology ! (among various others)
Inside my specialization, I also saw many domains, such as aero engineering, combustion, structures and solid mechanics, product lifecycle management, airplane design, etc..
All books used in our engineering schools (at least the top 3 and I can safely bet it's the same elsewhere in France) are written by our teachers.
The fact is we don't aim at being the very best in one very small domain. We aim at knowing many many domains, without being the best experts on any of these domains. Each and every course could allow us to become quite good at the subject, however, as you can imagine it, it is quite difficult to be good at many things. So only the top students (the ones that work the hardest) will be very good at many things. Other ones will just work more on things they like more.
And many French graduates from our engineering schools, despite having not studied the best books on the market, have stolen are stealing and will steal English graduates finance jobs in London
To finish with, I attended a top australian uni for 6 months (40-50 in QS ranking). Some of my comrades preferred other countries and one of my best mates joined Columbia.
Really, to us, the academic level, if we chose courses whose prerequisites we fulfilled, was a joke. Sorry to say it like that.
In France, we have this system where we work our asses off during two years, then there is a selective examination to join the top schools. So we know what it is to work hard (some of my mates worked up to 70 hours per week, I was between 45 and 50 hours)
In Australia, the dean told us that for each hour of class, we should work two hours at home. This could seem daunting, since a French guy would expect 20-30 weekly hours of class, so that would be 60-90 weekly hours of work !
But in fact, we only had 13 hours of class, including 2 hours of tutorial (where is the laughing smiley when you need it ?). I did not like the tutorials so I did not attend them. We had mandatory assignments so I had to work at home, but the mandatory assignments were all I did.
We were given 3 weeks without any class to revise !! I studied like 2 days before my exams, and passed them.
Not with flying colors, this would have required learning things up to an advanced level but with a slightly better mark than the university's average.
To me, this semester was a semester of holidays !
One interesting event is the following:
During the first lesson of class A, teacher A gave an assignment for the next week. This made up 10% of the final mark for the class. It was to write approx one page about a given scientific topic. I completely forgot about it. When I was asked to give it in, I almost panicked but decided to lie and tell I just had forgotten it at home. Teacher A told me that if I had not done it, I would get a 0% mark for this assignment. I told him I would just get out of class at 5, get my bus and be home by 5:30, then I could scan it and e-mail it by 5:40. In fact I lived a 10-minute walk away. I ran home. Worked the fastest of my whole life, and scanned it and sent it.
Of course, I did not get a shiny 10/10%, I got a slightly above average mark, 6.5.
I am very sorry if I sounded like an arrogant, however I believe that using strong, politically uncorrect words and not hiding behind euphemisms have helped my ideas to be very clear.
Edit :
The previous was for engineering. But let's talk about research : the Ecole Normale Superieure. That is the most elite education you can get if you want to become a researcher.
"Fun fact : All the french Fields medalists have studied, at undergrad level, at the Ecole normale supérieure in Paris which, alone, produced more medalists (still talking of undergrad) than all the universities in the Ivy League, Cambridge, Oxford and MIT ... combined."
You can read all in :
https://www.quora.com/Which-country-...ci?ref=fb_page
So I seriously doubt you attended a top uni, or majored in anything scientific or otherwise in constant flux.
For the personnal rant : oh my god there it is !! The clash between the French idea of top education and the Anglosaxon (are you English? American?) idea of top education ! The first time I have the opportunity to fight it !
Self published books, in an academic/scientific context, written by your own teachers, are worthless.
Sure, if you want to publish the best thesis of the academic year, master's degree books from a teacher that discovered the subject when he got his tenure will not be enough.
However if you just want a scientific job, they will be perfect.
There are no authorities in science. You are judged on the merits of your arguments. Nobody knows everything, nobody has up-to-date knowledge on everything. Nobody has time for that. That's why we let the academic community/market forces decide on what's good teaching material and what's not.
Some knowledge of many domains vs highly specialised knowledge of only one domain
Subsequently, the French dean does not really care if the book is not up to date nor the best.
So I seriously doubt you attended a top uni, or majored in anything scientific or otherwise in constant flux.
I attended one of 3 best engineering school in France. It is between 100th and 150th on QS ranking, the best one is Polytechnique which is ranked ~50 in QS ranking.
Note that this is despite the fact that the criteria of the QS ranking are not adapted at all for French engineering schools.
There is a reason you won't find many french universities in the yearly top 100 rankings.
QS ranking is based on research, and size, whereas French schools like to be small and very numerous, and like to educate engineers, not ph doctors (an engineering degree from ecole polytechnique is really the top scientific diploma you can get in France, it is far far better on the job market than having a Phd from a normal uni, even the best according to QS, which is UPMC)
When I was there, I was "specialized" in aerospace engineering, but had classes in many many domains, such as finance, economy, thermal engineering, statistics, algorithmics and programming, hell, even biology ! (among various others)
Inside my specialization, I also saw many domains, such as aero engineering, combustion, structures and solid mechanics, product lifecycle management, airplane design, etc..
All books used in our engineering schools (at least the top 3 and I can safely bet it's the same elsewhere in France) are written by our teachers.
The fact is we don't aim at being the very best in one very small domain. We aim at knowing many many domains, without being the best experts on any of these domains. Each and every course could allow us to become quite good at the subject, however, as you can imagine it, it is quite difficult to be good at many things. So only the top students (the ones that work the hardest) will be very good at many things. Other ones will just work more on things they like more.
And many French graduates from our engineering schools, despite having not studied the best books on the market, have stolen are stealing and will steal English graduates finance jobs in London
To finish with, I attended a top australian uni for 6 months (40-50 in QS ranking). Some of my comrades preferred other countries and one of my best mates joined Columbia.
Really, to us, the academic level, if we chose courses whose prerequisites we fulfilled, was a joke. Sorry to say it like that.
In France, we have this system where we work our asses off during two years, then there is a selective examination to join the top schools. So we know what it is to work hard (some of my mates worked up to 70 hours per week, I was between 45 and 50 hours)
In Australia, the dean told us that for each hour of class, we should work two hours at home. This could seem daunting, since a French guy would expect 20-30 weekly hours of class, so that would be 60-90 weekly hours of work !
But in fact, we only had 13 hours of class, including 2 hours of tutorial (where is the laughing smiley when you need it ?). I did not like the tutorials so I did not attend them. We had mandatory assignments so I had to work at home, but the mandatory assignments were all I did.
We were given 3 weeks without any class to revise !! I studied like 2 days before my exams, and passed them.
Not with flying colors, this would have required learning things up to an advanced level but with a slightly better mark than the university's average.
To me, this semester was a semester of holidays !
One interesting event is the following:
During the first lesson of class A, teacher A gave an assignment for the next week. This made up 10% of the final mark for the class. It was to write approx one page about a given scientific topic. I completely forgot about it. When I was asked to give it in, I almost panicked but decided to lie and tell I just had forgotten it at home. Teacher A told me that if I had not done it, I would get a 0% mark for this assignment. I told him I would just get out of class at 5, get my bus and be home by 5:30, then I could scan it and e-mail it by 5:40. In fact I lived a 10-minute walk away. I ran home. Worked the fastest of my whole life, and scanned it and sent it.
Of course, I did not get a shiny 10/10%, I got a slightly above average mark, 6.5.
I am very sorry if I sounded like an arrogant
, however I believe that using strong, politically uncorrect words and not hiding behind euphemisms have helped my ideas to be very clear.Edit :
The previous was for engineering. But let's talk about research : the Ecole Normale Superieure. That is the most elite education you can get if you want to become a researcher.
"Fun fact : All the french Fields medalists have studied, at undergrad level, at the Ecole normale supérieure in Paris which, alone, produced more medalists (still talking of undergrad) than all the universities in the Ivy League, Cambridge, Oxford and MIT ... combined."
You can read all in :
https://www.quora.com/Which-country-...ci?ref=fb_page
Last edited by KayPam; 10th November 2016 at 23:52.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
You need to be aware that any books older than about a year will have the operations section seriously out of date (get EU Doc 965/2012).
At least 1500 new questions in previously unused parts of the learning objectives have been added since then, and 2000 existing ones tweaked.
300 euros is a lot for secondhand books.
At least 1500 new questions in previously unused parts of the learning objectives have been added since then, and 2000 existing ones tweaked.
300 euros is a lot for secondhand books.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 507
Likes: 1
From: France
I will be buying the PDF version of the 2016 Jeppesen books.
I will just have them printed and voilà !!
This will work if the documents are not electronically protected.
I will just have them printed and voilà !!
This will work if the documents are not electronically protected.
Last edited by KayPam; 12th November 2016 at 00:22.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 507
Likes: 1
From: France
Peters software is a catastrophy, the english sounds german, many things are unclear, and I've even found inconsistencies..
Is Jeppesen really from Peter's software ? The PDF version of my 2004 Jeppesen books seemed a bit better.
So it looks like I should choose the Oxford books ?
And maybe an updated version of some books (operations and air law are too old?) ?
Thanks !
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 507
Likes: 1
From: France
Cheapest vs most expensive training
Cheapest vs most expensive training : do they really provide better training ?
Hello
I have a very simple question.
Bartolini advertises 17500€ for CPL + MEIR
The same is 7k more at DFAS
The same is 50% more at a normal french or english school
The same is twice as much (or even a bit more) at CTC aviation.
Can one really say that there will be a noticeable difference in flying skills between students of all these different schools ?
Does is have any impact whatsoever on one's ability to find a job ?
I also have the same question, for MCC/JOC
MCC/JOC at the cheapest vs CTC/FTE : is the difference more noticeable ?
Could one argue about a school being at an optimum opportunities/price ratio ?
Thanks
Hello
I have a very simple question.
Bartolini advertises 17500€ for CPL + MEIR
The same is 7k more at DFAS
The same is 50% more at a normal french or english school
The same is twice as much (or even a bit more) at CTC aviation.
Can one really say that there will be a noticeable difference in flying skills between students of all these different schools ?
Does is have any impact whatsoever on one's ability to find a job ?
I also have the same question, for MCC/JOC
MCC/JOC at the cheapest vs CTC/FTE : is the difference more noticeable ?
Could one argue about a school being at an optimum opportunities/price ratio ?
Thanks
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 507
Likes: 1
From: France
Actually simtech would be in the cheap category even though they may very well provide quality training.
Indeed, they advertise 4450€ whereas wings alliance will be 7500£
How much would cockpit4u be ?
I'm not convinced by the CPL on P2002 thingy at Bartolini
I would rather train entirely on the DA42 for 7k€ more i think.
CTC FTE and OAA will not accept everybody in their AQC, will they ?
So there would be a supplementary delay due to selection and then a risk of not being accepted into it... A shame knowing you're already paying more..
Indeed, they advertise 4450€ whereas wings alliance will be 7500£
How much would cockpit4u be ?
I'm not convinced by the CPL on P2002 thingy at Bartolini
I would rather train entirely on the DA42 for 7k€ more i think.
CTC FTE and OAA will not accept everybody in their AQC, will they ?
So there would be a supplementary delay due to selection and then a risk of not being accepted into it... A shame knowing you're already paying more..
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,846
Likes: 4
From: Bristol, England
There is some discussion here that suggests CTC have stopped supplying easyjet with pilots from the AQC and all are now going into a special hold pool. Candidates asking for their money back.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 507
Likes: 1
From: France
I'm not paying twice as much to get a good course.
I might as well ask for a longer course at a cheaper FTO...
Would there be placement opportunities with FTE/Kura/any other provider ?
If I had to choose my modular school right now i'd choose DFAS, but no idea about the MCC/JOC afterwards..
I might as well ask for a longer course at a cheaper FTO...
Would there be placement opportunities with FTE/Kura/any other provider ?
If I had to choose my modular school right now i'd choose DFAS, but no idea about the MCC/JOC afterwards..