OAT Exam Results
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The only point I would take issue with is the second part of (e). The current downturn has not affected us much in terms of student throughput because of the Khalifa contract, which has helped to see us through. We are running at near to our maximum capacity.
We have an intentional policy of not increasing class sizes. This is partly because of the normal concerns about instructor-student ratios and partly a matter of sheer logistics - most of our classrooms don't have room for more than 18. We can manage a class of 20, but the room allocation needs a lot of planning. When we had a class of more than 20, there was only one classroom they could use and, anyway, as I said, we didn't feel that they should be disadvantaged compared with everyone else - they were paying the same fees.
So I don't think that the class sizes will ever go above 18 - perhaps 20, at a pinch.
We have an intentional policy of not increasing class sizes. This is partly because of the normal concerns about instructor-student ratios and partly a matter of sheer logistics - most of our classrooms don't have room for more than 18. We can manage a class of 20, but the room allocation needs a lot of planning. When we had a class of more than 20, there was only one classroom they could use and, anyway, as I said, we didn't feel that they should be disadvantaged compared with everyone else - they were paying the same fees.
So I don't think that the class sizes will ever go above 18 - perhaps 20, at a pinch.
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Oxford Blue
My suggestion that class sizes might rise above 20 when the upturn arrives was based on your statement that since the Kalifa students have moved on to flying you have recently found classroom space to split the courses. I suspect OATS are unwilling to give any guarantee that classes will not rise above 20 in the future, so it should be viewed as a possibility. One of my students told me that he attended an OATs consolidation course of between 24 and 26 recently.
More importantly, we have now moved to a point where potential students have some meaningful statistics on which to make their judgements. It would be nice to think that the other ftos will now volunteer similar data, but I suspect they will not. Potential students must therefore ensure that they ask the right questions (and draw the appropriate conclusions if answers are not forthcoming), when looking for a place to invest their money.
My suggestion that class sizes might rise above 20 when the upturn arrives was based on your statement that since the Kalifa students have moved on to flying you have recently found classroom space to split the courses. I suspect OATS are unwilling to give any guarantee that classes will not rise above 20 in the future, so it should be viewed as a possibility. One of my students told me that he attended an OATs consolidation course of between 24 and 26 recently.
More importantly, we have now moved to a point where potential students have some meaningful statistics on which to make their judgements. It would be nice to think that the other ftos will now volunteer similar data, but I suspect they will not. Potential students must therefore ensure that they ask the right questions (and draw the appropriate conclusions if answers are not forthcoming), when looking for a place to invest their money.
Last edited by Keith.Williams.; 6th Jul 2002 at 13:21.
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Thanks all of you for the interesting and informative comments.
My original question was genuine and not OAT bashing in any way.
I am in the middle of researching which fto to apply to to take my integrated ATPL considering the massive investment involved. As someone said - sponsorship? what is sponsorship??????
I too would be extremely interested in the Cabair and BAE results - further research is called for!!!
Oh well - off to the day job now - got to carry on earning so that I can reach for the sky
By the way, if Sally reads this - I am female and work in basically a male orientated environment in ATC - no problems - they are all great, helpful and supportive - also the commercial pilots I know - all say - go for it, there is nothing better!!
My original question was genuine and not OAT bashing in any way.
I am in the middle of researching which fto to apply to to take my integrated ATPL considering the massive investment involved. As someone said - sponsorship? what is sponsorship??????
I too would be extremely interested in the Cabair and BAE results - further research is called for!!!
Oh well - off to the day job now - got to carry on earning so that I can reach for the sky
By the way, if Sally reads this - I am female and work in basically a male orientated environment in ATC - no problems - they are all great, helpful and supportive - also the commercial pilots I know - all say - go for it, there is nothing better!!
Ground instructor
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I was not going to post but...
.....the published results on the website
http://www.oxfordaviation.net/corpor...news/exams.htm
start by saying;
JAA ATPL EXAM SUCCESS
PLEASE NOTE THESE RESULTS DO NOT INCLUDE OUR DISTANCE LEARNING STUDENTS - ONLY FULL TIME COURSE AT OXFORD
I fail to see how this implies that it includes distance learners
http://www.oxfordaviation.net/corpor...news/exams.htm
start by saying;
JAA ATPL EXAM SUCCESS
PLEASE NOTE THESE RESULTS DO NOT INCLUDE OUR DISTANCE LEARNING STUDENTS - ONLY FULL TIME COURSE AT OXFORD
I fail to see how this implies that it includes distance learners
Join Date: May 1999
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Since you ask, they have only just added this caveat to their website. Up until very recently the Oxford marketing team pointedly failed to mention that their published results covered only the best half of their students. To his credit Oxford Blue was the first to confirm the distance learning students were not included.
Oxford apologists would also presumably be able to explain why their banner ad (now removed) claimed that more than 90% of their students passed everything first time, the stats now being given seem to suggest rather less than this.
I assume the reason that they are quoting me as a 'jealous competitor' is that I complained to the Advertising Standards Authority that many of the statements they made in their adverts were untrue (best in the world, oxford students have a better chance of leading industry jobs etc...). Being unable to substantiate any of them they have had to retract some and modify others. Tough luck, I reckon.
Oxford apologists would also presumably be able to explain why their banner ad (now removed) claimed that more than 90% of their students passed everything first time, the stats now being given seem to suggest rather less than this.
I assume the reason that they are quoting me as a 'jealous competitor' is that I complained to the Advertising Standards Authority that many of the statements they made in their adverts were untrue (best in the world, oxford students have a better chance of leading industry jobs etc...). Being unable to substantiate any of them they have had to retract some and modify others. Tough luck, I reckon.
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OXFORD BLUE
Having just looked at the OATS Website quoted above, I see that it states that the figures are based on 6513 examinations taken by 727 students. This gives an average of only 8.96 examinations per student. I realise that some students are currently only part way through their training, but this seems to be a very low figure. Can you shed any light on how these figures work.
ALEX
Now that Oxford Blue has produced some more detailed statistics for OATS, can you do the same for BGS. As stated above, I am not trying to have a dig at any school, but realistic information would be very useful to potential students. I recognise the problem with distance learners not sending back results, but that shouldn't preclude the provision of some useful data
Suiatble headings might include:
What is your standard time for completion of the two modules of your ATPL course?
What percentage of students complete the course within the standard time?
What percentage of examinations does the average student pass at the first attempt?
What percentage of students require more than the standard consolidation course before taking the exams?
Having just looked at the OATS Website quoted above, I see that it states that the figures are based on 6513 examinations taken by 727 students. This gives an average of only 8.96 examinations per student. I realise that some students are currently only part way through their training, but this seems to be a very low figure. Can you shed any light on how these figures work.
ALEX
Now that Oxford Blue has produced some more detailed statistics for OATS, can you do the same for BGS. As stated above, I am not trying to have a dig at any school, but realistic information would be very useful to potential students. I recognise the problem with distance learners not sending back results, but that shouldn't preclude the provision of some useful data
Suiatble headings might include:
What is your standard time for completion of the two modules of your ATPL course?
What percentage of students complete the course within the standard time?
What percentage of examinations does the average student pass at the first attempt?
What percentage of students require more than the standard consolidation course before taking the exams?
I'm sure Alex doesn't need any help but I passed 14/14 with BGS in about 15 months but that included closure of PPSC, birth of our son and 11 Sep which had a major impact for me work-wise. No extra tuition required beyond the normal refresher.
Incidentally, I understand that Oxford frown upon school's that merely teach people to pass the exams. Why is it then that they place so much emphasis upon feedback from their students. I'm not saying that feedback is bad but it is disingenuous to imply that they are schooling future training captains when so much of their courses revolve around practice exams.
Ho hum. We haven't had this debate for at least 3 weeks!
Incidentally, I understand that Oxford frown upon school's that merely teach people to pass the exams. Why is it then that they place so much emphasis upon feedback from their students. I'm not saying that feedback is bad but it is disingenuous to imply that they are schooling future training captains when so much of their courses revolve around practice exams.
Ho hum. We haven't had this debate for at least 3 weeks!
Whilst i understand the desire to ascertain which is the "best" groundschool it is largely a fruitless endeavour.
Both OATS and BGS run excellent courses with which I would not have a moment hesitation in placing a recommendation.
Bigger deciding factors would be location, price or 'the vibe' you get when you walk in the door.
The same goes for nearly every other well established groundschool in the UK.
There are no definitive statistics on groundschool performance collated in the same way by an independent source such as the CAA. In the absence of this all you have is student claims followed in this case by staff/owner claims.
Whilst everybody is posting with the best of intentions I think this thread is becoming a little pointless.
Carry on if you want though.
Cheers,
WWW
Both OATS and BGS run excellent courses with which I would not have a moment hesitation in placing a recommendation.
Bigger deciding factors would be location, price or 'the vibe' you get when you walk in the door.
The same goes for nearly every other well established groundschool in the UK.
There are no definitive statistics on groundschool performance collated in the same way by an independent source such as the CAA. In the absence of this all you have is student claims followed in this case by staff/owner claims.
Whilst everybody is posting with the best of intentions I think this thread is becoming a little pointless.
Carry on if you want though.
Cheers,
WWW
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I'm sorry Keith, you have completely missed the point.
The truth is there are no sound statistics here, only numbers which the charitable would call 'an opinion'. They can't be verified and, as we have seen, it is too easy for an advertiser to create a false impression. I could give you my opinion, but it would be worth as little as Oxford's. Until the CAA publish authenticated stats the only schools that really know their distance learning results are those with so few students they can count them on one hand.
It is a shame that we have been dragged down this road. Statistics look very convincing, we tend to believe them because we assume that adverts in the UK must be legal, honest and truthful. It devalues the whole industry when Joe Bloggs Aviation or some such makes exaggerated statements they can't prove, it takes away an element of trust.
The truth is there are no sound statistics here, only numbers which the charitable would call 'an opinion'. They can't be verified and, as we have seen, it is too easy for an advertiser to create a false impression. I could give you my opinion, but it would be worth as little as Oxford's. Until the CAA publish authenticated stats the only schools that really know their distance learning results are those with so few students they can count them on one hand.
It is a shame that we have been dragged down this road. Statistics look very convincing, we tend to believe them because we assume that adverts in the UK must be legal, honest and truthful. It devalues the whole industry when Joe Bloggs Aviation or some such makes exaggerated statements they can't prove, it takes away an element of trust.
Last edited by Alex Whittingham; 10th Jul 2002 at 05:29.
Jet Blast Rat
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You thinking of anyone in particular, Alex, with so few students? 
I would support what Alex says. From what I know (and I have given private tuition to students from many distance-learning courses, and students strugging to pass after full-time) all the groundschools mentioned so far here are good. There are others that are (or, in two much-missed cases, were) good.
However trust statistics as you would trust Gordon Brown - i.e. don't!
I would support what Alex says. From what I know (and I have given private tuition to students from many distance-learning courses, and students strugging to pass after full-time) all the groundschools mentioned so far here are good. There are others that are (or, in two much-missed cases, were) good.
However trust statistics as you would trust Gordon Brown - i.e. don't!
Last edited by Send Clowns; 10th Jul 2002 at 16:50.
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Well I can tell you my opinion. My opinion is that while I'm sure Oxford are very good we are unquestionably better. I have thoroughly researched this point of view and of the people I asked in the street 98% agreed with me except the ones I decided not to include in the survey because they looked unreliable. Unfortunately I can't prove this because my dog ate the original survey data. Can we drop this?
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ALEX,
It is possible that I have missed your point, but that is not the only point of interest here.
As I said above, I accept the fact that many distance learners will not return their results, so any pass rate statistic will be incomplete. But surely you are able to give accurate figures for the average duration of study and the number of students who require extra coinsolidation from you before taking their exams.
Is it not also possible to give figures for those who have returned their results. If you wish you can add the health warning " These results are incomplete"
As I have said before, this is not intended to be a dig at any fto, but ,merely an attempt to get some usefull information published. The originator of this string was clearly attempting to do just that. So far, you have assisted him by criticising the OATs stats but have offered none of your own.
Your school has an excellent reputation and clearly provides an outstandingly good product. If any fto is able to produce credible statistics it is probably yours. I have heard the cry that such stats will never be possible, but they also said that about heavier than air flying machines! Unfortunately all of the ftos appear to see this as a game of "I'll show you mine, but only if you show me yours first".
I also recognise the fact that comments such as those made by Send Clowns are unlikely to encourage anyone to stick their necks out and offer information.
It is possible that I have missed your point, but that is not the only point of interest here.
As I said above, I accept the fact that many distance learners will not return their results, so any pass rate statistic will be incomplete. But surely you are able to give accurate figures for the average duration of study and the number of students who require extra coinsolidation from you before taking their exams.
Is it not also possible to give figures for those who have returned their results. If you wish you can add the health warning " These results are incomplete"
As I have said before, this is not intended to be a dig at any fto, but ,merely an attempt to get some usefull information published. The originator of this string was clearly attempting to do just that. So far, you have assisted him by criticising the OATs stats but have offered none of your own.
Your school has an excellent reputation and clearly provides an outstandingly good product. If any fto is able to produce credible statistics it is probably yours. I have heard the cry that such stats will never be possible, but they also said that about heavier than air flying machines! Unfortunately all of the ftos appear to see this as a game of "I'll show you mine, but only if you show me yours first".
I also recognise the fact that comments such as those made by Send Clowns are unlikely to encourage anyone to stick their necks out and offer information.
