what airlines want?
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 200
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From: UK
Tailscrape;- Ive got no chip and have been flying something bigger than you for years. Its just a shame that you resort to advising people that qualifications arent necessary. I have several friends at other airlines who lost their jobs post Sept 11th and those that had degree qualification have found it easier to get well paid work in the interim until things pick up. Not placing all your eggs in one basket seems sound advice to me.
Go and take a chill pill and perhaps the doc can also prescribe some tablets to combat your immature soaring arrogance and ego.
Go and take a chill pill and perhaps the doc can also prescribe some tablets to combat your immature soaring arrogance and ego.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
From: UK
PP,
How resourceful you are ! My point was to inform Tailscrape that I am more than happy with my lot which what his inference was about.
I wish you the best of luck. If you are as young as you are and manage to get a job then the best of British to you. I am not knocking those without qualifications but merely attempting to point out the pitfalls in this business that is notoriously unpredictable. Having something to fall back on is no bad thing.
How resourceful you are ! My point was to inform Tailscrape that I am more than happy with my lot which what his inference was about.
I wish you the best of luck. If you are as young as you are and manage to get a job then the best of British to you. I am not knocking those without qualifications but merely attempting to point out the pitfalls in this business that is notoriously unpredictable. Having something to fall back on is no bad thing.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: UK
Lonerider,
Graduates nearly always come in 3 flavours:
The STRAWBERRY SENSATIONS are those graduates who have carefully selected their degree course in a mainstream discipline with a view to vocational excellence in that discipline and are to be applauded and have their cv sent to the top of the pile. The other 95% of graduates can be split into one of the two remaining flavours (usually within about 5 mins of tasting).
The ORDINARY ORANGE flavour are those who sensibly recognise that they either went to University for social reasons or to study a subject of which they were fond/good at, and who sensibly acknowledge that this time, whilst well worth it to them, makes them no better a generally-educated or interllectual individual than anyone else in society. These guys and gals are to be treated with complete parity of esteem as their colleagues who decided to try their luck out there in the real world. They are also to have their relative efforts praised accordingly.
Then there are the LEMONS. These last, and really rather bad tasting individuals, believe that in going through the motions of a degree course they have somehow been elevated to "Professional Status" and are destined for far greater things, none of which they really know anything about, but all of which will involve earning enough money to buy the trappings that will help silence the little voice inside them that says "I am as ordinary now as the day I was when I filled in the UCCA/PCAS forms 4 years ago". These nasty little bas@#~s will nearly always leave a bitter taste in your mouth - BEWARE!!
As for "graduates have shown that they value education" - I suppose that they have done this to the exclusion of the rest of us. I mean, if you haven't been to University then you obviously don't read books /journals, listen to educational programmes or actually go out into the big wide world and educate yourself first hand. Yes thats right, those models you read about in the text books actually occur in the REAL world too - groovy eh? The kind of arrogance that inspires a comment like "people whose only conversation topic is flying and football" defies belief. Exactly which planet do you come from?
In a previous incarnation I used to screen CV's and interview hopefulls in the city. The guys and gals were typically 23/24 years of age and the majority were graduates. I can tell you that with very few exceptions, the impressive candidates were the youngsters who had gone out into the real world and bought themselves a big 'ol chunk of Life Experience - these were the guys and gals with character, confidence, broad horizons i.e "ROUNDED INDIVIDUALS". Just how exactly do you become rounded by situating yourself in one of our great nations more undesirable suburbs for 3 or 4 years, attending lectures 3 or 4 days out of 7, writing the odd dissitation, and generally living it large down the boozer or student union, with a bit of a club sesh at weekends!?! (Answer in 5000 words or less).
I take your point that post-university folks are still youngsters in the scheme of things and have many years to experience life thereafter. I agree 100%. However - if they do so, harbouring the kind of narrow minded mentality and sporting the kind of superiority complex that you demonstrate - well the real lessons that life has to offer will be wasted on them.
Lonerider is quite right - if you do decide University is for you then give it your all, enjoy and try to aim for Strawberry or Orange flavour- remember nobody likes a Lemon!!!! If you really feel that in your heart of hearts University is not your thing - don't be press-ganged into it by the ill-advised and frankly small-minded twaddle that has been promelgated on this page.
I cannot claim to know the author of these comments and so hope that they are born of the "arrogance of youth". If not, you have my very deepest sympathy - I'll give you a wide berth at the bar!
Lonerider - are you surprised?
Graduates nearly always come in 3 flavours:
The STRAWBERRY SENSATIONS are those graduates who have carefully selected their degree course in a mainstream discipline with a view to vocational excellence in that discipline and are to be applauded and have their cv sent to the top of the pile. The other 95% of graduates can be split into one of the two remaining flavours (usually within about 5 mins of tasting).
The ORDINARY ORANGE flavour are those who sensibly recognise that they either went to University for social reasons or to study a subject of which they were fond/good at, and who sensibly acknowledge that this time, whilst well worth it to them, makes them no better a generally-educated or interllectual individual than anyone else in society. These guys and gals are to be treated with complete parity of esteem as their colleagues who decided to try their luck out there in the real world. They are also to have their relative efforts praised accordingly.
Then there are the LEMONS. These last, and really rather bad tasting individuals, believe that in going through the motions of a degree course they have somehow been elevated to "Professional Status" and are destined for far greater things, none of which they really know anything about, but all of which will involve earning enough money to buy the trappings that will help silence the little voice inside them that says "I am as ordinary now as the day I was when I filled in the UCCA/PCAS forms 4 years ago". These nasty little bas@#~s will nearly always leave a bitter taste in your mouth - BEWARE!!
As for "graduates have shown that they value education" - I suppose that they have done this to the exclusion of the rest of us. I mean, if you haven't been to University then you obviously don't read books /journals, listen to educational programmes or actually go out into the big wide world and educate yourself first hand. Yes thats right, those models you read about in the text books actually occur in the REAL world too - groovy eh? The kind of arrogance that inspires a comment like "people whose only conversation topic is flying and football" defies belief. Exactly which planet do you come from?
In a previous incarnation I used to screen CV's and interview hopefulls in the city. The guys and gals were typically 23/24 years of age and the majority were graduates. I can tell you that with very few exceptions, the impressive candidates were the youngsters who had gone out into the real world and bought themselves a big 'ol chunk of Life Experience - these were the guys and gals with character, confidence, broad horizons i.e "ROUNDED INDIVIDUALS". Just how exactly do you become rounded by situating yourself in one of our great nations more undesirable suburbs for 3 or 4 years, attending lectures 3 or 4 days out of 7, writing the odd dissitation, and generally living it large down the boozer or student union, with a bit of a club sesh at weekends!?! (Answer in 5000 words or less).
I take your point that post-university folks are still youngsters in the scheme of things and have many years to experience life thereafter. I agree 100%. However - if they do so, harbouring the kind of narrow minded mentality and sporting the kind of superiority complex that you demonstrate - well the real lessons that life has to offer will be wasted on them.
Lonerider is quite right - if you do decide University is for you then give it your all, enjoy and try to aim for Strawberry or Orange flavour- remember nobody likes a Lemon!!!! If you really feel that in your heart of hearts University is not your thing - don't be press-ganged into it by the ill-advised and frankly small-minded twaddle that has been promelgated on this page.
I cannot claim to know the author of these comments and so hope that they are born of the "arrogance of youth". If not, you have my very deepest sympathy - I'll give you a wide berth at the bar!
Lonerider - are you surprised?
Last edited by JAR_monkey; 26th June 2002 at 23:48.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: UK
Apologies
Lonerider
I had not noticed your apology prior to posting my last preaching! In light of this I too apologise for any offence caused by my own comments.
I do notice that you don't take any of your comments back and so, unsurprisingly..............nor will I.
I had not noticed your apology prior to posting my last preaching! In light of this I too apologise for any offence caused by my own comments.
I do notice that you don't take any of your comments back and so, unsurprisingly..............nor will I.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: Surrey
I don’t understand some people on this board. All I did was state my own opinion on this subject, criticising absolutely nobody personally and all I get is a load of abuse. Simply because you don’t like what I said!! Well I’m sorry but I do believe that qualifications are important in life, increasingly so as more people find the path to higher education. You can argue with me all day if you like, my opinion will not change, and why the hell should it.
All I said was if the opportunity to go to university arises take it, in fact grab it with both hands. What is wrong with that? Many jobs state a minimum set of qualifications, for example the RAF want 2 ‘A’ levels and some TEP schemes also state the same. But how many people actually succeed with these minimum qualifications? Not many. The vast majority are graduates. In fact any job that you go for you will be hard pushed to secure if you just go off the absolute minimum. You are far better to load up with as many qualifications as possible. Its just a fact of life I’m afraid. True to say theres loads of pilots out there with no qualifications whatsoever, but most trained 30 or so years ago when the world was a very different place than it is today. Anybody today would be wise to stay on in education as long as possible.
You seem to think that after leaving school at 16 anyone who studies and passes all the licences are automatically guaranteed or even entitled to an airline job for life!! It does not work that way. Tell me then, what happens if you can’t find an airline job or you lose your job? At least with qualifications such as a degree it will allow you to gain some half decent job that provides money to pay off the mortgage or any training debts.
A university degree takes all of 3 or 4 years to complete but is there for life. Especially given the current climate in aviation, any capable 18 year old would be advised to go and get an education before embarking on their professional licences. It also shows employers that you are not a single minded individual just interested in aviation. As I have said before, education widens your horizons to life. You can, like I say, argue with me all day, pointing out exceptions to this rule, but for the average capable 18 year old who wants to be a pilot going to university would be, in my opinion the most sensible thing to do.
All I said was if the opportunity to go to university arises take it, in fact grab it with both hands. What is wrong with that? Many jobs state a minimum set of qualifications, for example the RAF want 2 ‘A’ levels and some TEP schemes also state the same. But how many people actually succeed with these minimum qualifications? Not many. The vast majority are graduates. In fact any job that you go for you will be hard pushed to secure if you just go off the absolute minimum. You are far better to load up with as many qualifications as possible. Its just a fact of life I’m afraid. True to say theres loads of pilots out there with no qualifications whatsoever, but most trained 30 or so years ago when the world was a very different place than it is today. Anybody today would be wise to stay on in education as long as possible.
You seem to think that after leaving school at 16 anyone who studies and passes all the licences are automatically guaranteed or even entitled to an airline job for life!! It does not work that way. Tell me then, what happens if you can’t find an airline job or you lose your job? At least with qualifications such as a degree it will allow you to gain some half decent job that provides money to pay off the mortgage or any training debts.
A university degree takes all of 3 or 4 years to complete but is there for life. Especially given the current climate in aviation, any capable 18 year old would be advised to go and get an education before embarking on their professional licences. It also shows employers that you are not a single minded individual just interested in aviation. As I have said before, education widens your horizons to life. You can, like I say, argue with me all day, pointing out exceptions to this rule, but for the average capable 18 year old who wants to be a pilot going to university would be, in my opinion the most sensible thing to do.
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,503
Likes: 1,845
From: England
Re-posted from an earlier thread: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...i&pagenumber=1
-----------
This years Natwest survey shows Uni graduates on average have £10,000 of debt when they leave University.
3 years and 10 grand.
Hmmm.
Personally I might be tempted to avoid this.
I might be very tempted to take the following route.
Get 3 good A-levels and make sure you get decent grades. Maths, English, Geography, Physics, Chem, Electronics. That kind of thing. If you get some A's and B's you have more or less proved you have academic ability. Three years in Uni will only confirm what the A-levels indicate.
With your brains proven on paper I would now apply for a Modern Apprenticeship. There will be a couple of decent local firms that offer them. I used to run such a scheme in an electronics company and we had 30 MA's.
What you will get is 4 days a week at work on proper grown up pay. 1 day a week you are day released to College where you will complete something like an ONC HNC in your chosen Apprenticeship. Usually your work in the workplace will be assessed continually leading the issuance of an NVQ level 3.
Most MA's run for 2, 3 or 4 years. Usually your first year will be minimum wage (take home £220 a week) and this increases each year and when you finish you are up to Technician normal pay scales.
So. You can spend 3 years, £10,000+ getting a degree in a field in which you have NO experience.
Or. You can spend 2, 3 or 4 years earning £10,000+ a year getting an ONC, HNC and NVQ3 in a field in which you are now fully qualified, experienced and competent.
You could complete distance learning ATPL modules in your final Modern Apprenticeship year during months when the colleges are closed. You can live at home and have saved up at least half of your ATPL course. Or perhaps done your PPL and hour building over a couple of years.
If the market is buoyant then you can walk out of your MA any time you like with 4 weeks notice and carry your qualifications and experience to date with you. If you walk out of your Uni place even a day before finals you have blown years of study.
A Modern Apprenticeship will provide for you a FAR better fall back career than a degree coupled with no experience to go with it.
Trust me - you will be able to earn more as a HNC qualified electronic test engineer than you will as a Electronics graduate with no experience. MUCH more.
Similarly - do a MA in something that trains you up as a qualified Plumber, Sparky or Bricky and you will have a rock solid fall back trade that is needed from one end of the country to another.
I have a friend who works as a builder. He got into Chippying. He know specialises in changing and fitting locks in doors and windows in London for commercial premises. He has a bag of chisels and a van. He makes £58,000 a year of which the tax man sees maybe half. He picks his own hours and holidays and is his own boss.
If I lost my medical I would my insurance payout not to refresh my Psychology degree - I would do a plumbing course and buy a van, a mobile and an ad in Yellow Pages... an airline gets me out of bed at 4 in the morning very regularly for no extra compensation... many plumber now charge £75 callout fee in unsocial hours...
Good luck,
WWW
-----------
This years Natwest survey shows Uni graduates on average have £10,000 of debt when they leave University.
3 years and 10 grand.
Hmmm.
Personally I might be tempted to avoid this.
I might be very tempted to take the following route.
Get 3 good A-levels and make sure you get decent grades. Maths, English, Geography, Physics, Chem, Electronics. That kind of thing. If you get some A's and B's you have more or less proved you have academic ability. Three years in Uni will only confirm what the A-levels indicate.
With your brains proven on paper I would now apply for a Modern Apprenticeship. There will be a couple of decent local firms that offer them. I used to run such a scheme in an electronics company and we had 30 MA's.
What you will get is 4 days a week at work on proper grown up pay. 1 day a week you are day released to College where you will complete something like an ONC HNC in your chosen Apprenticeship. Usually your work in the workplace will be assessed continually leading the issuance of an NVQ level 3.
Most MA's run for 2, 3 or 4 years. Usually your first year will be minimum wage (take home £220 a week) and this increases each year and when you finish you are up to Technician normal pay scales.
So. You can spend 3 years, £10,000+ getting a degree in a field in which you have NO experience.
Or. You can spend 2, 3 or 4 years earning £10,000+ a year getting an ONC, HNC and NVQ3 in a field in which you are now fully qualified, experienced and competent.
You could complete distance learning ATPL modules in your final Modern Apprenticeship year during months when the colleges are closed. You can live at home and have saved up at least half of your ATPL course. Or perhaps done your PPL and hour building over a couple of years.
If the market is buoyant then you can walk out of your MA any time you like with 4 weeks notice and carry your qualifications and experience to date with you. If you walk out of your Uni place even a day before finals you have blown years of study.
A Modern Apprenticeship will provide for you a FAR better fall back career than a degree coupled with no experience to go with it.
Trust me - you will be able to earn more as a HNC qualified electronic test engineer than you will as a Electronics graduate with no experience. MUCH more.
Similarly - do a MA in something that trains you up as a qualified Plumber, Sparky or Bricky and you will have a rock solid fall back trade that is needed from one end of the country to another.
I have a friend who works as a builder. He got into Chippying. He know specialises in changing and fitting locks in doors and windows in London for commercial premises. He has a bag of chisels and a van. He makes £58,000 a year of which the tax man sees maybe half. He picks his own hours and holidays and is his own boss.
If I lost my medical I would my insurance payout not to refresh my Psychology degree - I would do a plumbing course and buy a van, a mobile and an ad in Yellow Pages... an airline gets me out of bed at 4 in the morning very regularly for no extra compensation... many plumber now charge £75 callout fee in unsocial hours...
Good luck,
WWW
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
From: varies, depending on the night before!
Valid points for both sides of the arguement. (albeit some are a little extreme, generalised and blinkered. But each to their own 
)
Take your point WWW. But not everyone would feel comfortable moving from RHS or LHS to being a 'Brickie / Sparks / Plumber, etc'! if suddenly your medical was withdrawn.
I have fallen back to my old job in finance, previously had only 2yrs experience in the industry and earning £50k+ p.a. (pays for twin hours, and I'm still looking for the elusive first RHS). But I wouldn't have got the job without a degree. Its a comfortable back stop to have. Not saying its the right or wrong way. Just adding my penny's worth as an example.
Its a very hard decision, particularly in the current market, so good luck to those of you who still have to make it. Who knows what airlines are going to ask for next!!??
)Take your point WWW. But not everyone would feel comfortable moving from RHS or LHS to being a 'Brickie / Sparks / Plumber, etc'! if suddenly your medical was withdrawn.
I have fallen back to my old job in finance, previously had only 2yrs experience in the industry and earning £50k+ p.a. (pays for twin hours, and I'm still looking for the elusive first RHS). But I wouldn't have got the job without a degree. Its a comfortable back stop to have. Not saying its the right or wrong way. Just adding my penny's worth as an example.
Its a very hard decision, particularly in the current market, so good luck to those of you who still have to make it. Who knows what airlines are going to ask for next!!??
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,503
Likes: 1,845
From: England
The argument that a degree is a good fallback investment is I think flawed in most cases.
Lets say you do a 3 years computing degree then 3 years in the business before making the leap into aviation. The 3 years on the job would just about pay off your Uni debts and save a bit to go towards your flight training costs.
Lets say you spend the next 6 years pottering about the skies earning your living. Perhaps you are a regional turbprop FO now. Up comes a jet airline job and you're off. Its Sept 10th 1002 and you feel on top of the world as you start your 747 conversion course.
Oh dear. Out on your arse.
Never mind I have a fallback plan. I'll go back to some IT contracting.
You have now lost contact with all your mates in the business who have moved on. You last touched a computer nearly 7 years ago. Your CV has a massive gap in it and you will not impress people at interview talking about the boring old HTML websites you used to engineer or the SAP you implemented at Bloggss Engineering Ltd.
Anybody interviewing you is going to ask themselves "will this person still be around in my Company in three years time"?
The answer patently is NO - he'll be off like a jack rabbit the very first pilot job that comes up.
Whereas.
"Hello, are you Big Harry the builder"?
"Yep - what do you want, I'm a busy man".
"I'm a decent Bricky, I am available tomorrow, got any work"?
"Yeah, job over by the Smithfield, see you at 8.30 sharp mind, £100 a day on this job and if I take you on full time we'll make it £150 - OK"?
"See you tomorrow Big Harry".
Compare and contrast.
WWW
Lets say you do a 3 years computing degree then 3 years in the business before making the leap into aviation. The 3 years on the job would just about pay off your Uni debts and save a bit to go towards your flight training costs.
Lets say you spend the next 6 years pottering about the skies earning your living. Perhaps you are a regional turbprop FO now. Up comes a jet airline job and you're off. Its Sept 10th 1002 and you feel on top of the world as you start your 747 conversion course.
Oh dear. Out on your arse.
Never mind I have a fallback plan. I'll go back to some IT contracting.
You have now lost contact with all your mates in the business who have moved on. You last touched a computer nearly 7 years ago. Your CV has a massive gap in it and you will not impress people at interview talking about the boring old HTML websites you used to engineer or the SAP you implemented at Bloggss Engineering Ltd.
Anybody interviewing you is going to ask themselves "will this person still be around in my Company in three years time"?
The answer patently is NO - he'll be off like a jack rabbit the very first pilot job that comes up.
Whereas.
"Hello, are you Big Harry the builder"?
"Yep - what do you want, I'm a busy man".
"I'm a decent Bricky, I am available tomorrow, got any work"?
"Yeah, job over by the Smithfield, see you at 8.30 sharp mind, £100 a day on this job and if I take you on full time we'll make it £150 - OK"?
"See you tomorrow Big Harry".
Compare and contrast.
WWW
Guest
Posts: n/a
this looks like it's rapidly descending into 'what's the best fallback job?' 
. but before it does, if no-one minds, i'll pop my tuppence in.
every degree has a shelf life of about 2 years. if you don't use it by then, you've probably forgotten most of the information, and what you can still remember will be obsolete. however, in that two years, it's a factor than can get your CV considered or moved up the pile. better hope it's got you a job in that time, because you'll have all those lovely debt's to pay off
.
once you have secured employment, it's how you perform in that job that becomes you primary selling point to the next job, and so on. like the saying goes, you're only as good as you last job. when i finally get my licence , i hope that whether on not you have a degree wont matter one iota, in the same way when i go for a contract now, nobody cares whether you have a degree or not.
restarting an old career after 7 years will be hard in any career as most recommendation comes on work of mouth. however, it'll probably be a chuff site easier than breaking into aviation
imho, web site designing (see above) is to IT what feng shui is to building. remember, chick's dig UNIX.
coat on and outtahere
. but before it does, if no-one minds, i'll pop my tuppence in.every degree has a shelf life of about 2 years. if you don't use it by then, you've probably forgotten most of the information, and what you can still remember will be obsolete. however, in that two years, it's a factor than can get your CV considered or moved up the pile. better hope it's got you a job in that time, because you'll have all those lovely debt's to pay off
. once you have secured employment, it's how you perform in that job that becomes you primary selling point to the next job, and so on. like the saying goes, you're only as good as you last job. when i finally get my licence
, i hope that whether on not you have a degree wont matter one iota, in the same way when i go for a contract now, nobody cares whether you have a degree or not.restarting an old career after 7 years will be hard in any career as most recommendation comes on work of mouth. however, it'll probably be a chuff site easier than breaking into aviation
imho, web site designing (see above) is to IT what feng shui is to building. remember, chick's dig UNIX.
coat on and outtahere
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: U.K.
Lonerider. Sorry that you think you have been unfairly treated.
I can't speak for anyone else, however, I don't think anyone's response to your post was abusive.
You stated your opinion (which you are entitled to and which was valid) and it was responded to.
I disagreed with your opinion that airline pilot's should have to have degrees. Therefore I countered it using reasonable launguage. This is called a debate and is nothing to get upset about!
I don't disagree that a degree is useful and respect to you if you have one. My point was that it is not the be all and end all of life and having one does not necessarily make you a better person.
The above is also directed a Bucking Bronco.
If you handle people disagreeing with you then don't involve yourself in a discussion!
Lot's of love, from biped
p.s. piperpilot asked if you were a pilot. I'm interested to. Are you?
I can't speak for anyone else, however, I don't think anyone's response to your post was abusive.
You stated your opinion (which you are entitled to and which was valid) and it was responded to.
I disagreed with your opinion that airline pilot's should have to have degrees. Therefore I countered it using reasonable launguage. This is called a debate and is nothing to get upset about!
I don't disagree that a degree is useful and respect to you if you have one. My point was that it is not the be all and end all of life and having one does not necessarily make you a better person.
The above is also directed a Bucking Bronco.
If you handle people disagreeing with you then don't involve yourself in a discussion!
Lot's of love, from biped
p.s. piperpilot asked if you were a pilot. I'm interested to. Are you?
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
That is a bloody good summary of the life of a contract IT bod WWW
Your only as good as your last contract.
MJ
BTW way i have found my HGV license the only qualification which i can use to get work anywhere in the country.
Your only as good as your last contract.
MJ
BTW way i have found my HGV license the only qualification which i can use to get work anywhere in the country.
Last edited by mad_jock; 27th June 2002 at 21:04.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
From: UK
Biped ;- I never said a degree makes a you a better person or am I blind ? Or have I said it is the be-all or end-all, have I ?
If it comes down to having academic qualifications or not having them, I know which camp I'd rather be in. If you'd rather not have them - good for you. They do say ignorance is bliss don't they ? Perhaps an English CSE wouldn't have gone a miss in your case judging by the spelling and lack of sense in one of your sentences in your last post.
If it comes down to having academic qualifications or not having them, I know which camp I'd rather be in. If you'd rather not have them - good for you. They do say ignorance is bliss don't they ? Perhaps an English CSE wouldn't have gone a miss in your case judging by the spelling and lack of sense in one of your sentences in your last post.
Last edited by Bucking Bronco; 28th June 2002 at 09:48.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
From: Next door
I agree with the point that doing a degree just as a fall back is a bad idea. It is expensive, extremely time consuming and very hard work if the degree is worth anything at all. I did an electronic engineering degree. It was very much a second choice in life compared to flying but definitely never a fall back. Back then I simply could not get into a cadet program and there was no way I could see I could afford to go the self-improver or integrated route. As it turned out engineering was a good choice. It has served me well as a challenging and interesting profession and once over the first few years after college, paid me pretty well too.
Years later personal and financial circumstances changed such that I arrived at a point recently where I re-examined flying as a career option. Following aptitude and medical tests, I found it was an option and I could now afford it. So soon I will be leaving engineering and hopefully in about 2 years time I will make it to the RHS (of something/anything!) as a paid professional pilot. If for whatever reason I don't make it I have a fall back. My fall back is there not by design, it just worked out that way and I really do not want to have to use it.Short term it's not a particularly useful one either as the nature of my type of engineering means committing to a design project for at least 6 months but more usually up to 2 years. I can step out of electronic engineering for a good number of years without getting out of date, believe it or not it hasn't changed that much in the last 10 years. However stepping back in and out on a week or so's notice is simply not an option. So if I do get to the stage where I have an fATPL and am in that uphill struggle to land that first job, I must consider options other than engineering to earn a living.
I think WWW is about right when it comes to picking a suitable jobs to fall back on if that is all that you want that job for - ideally find something like an apprenticeship you are interested in and pays well enough for those flying hours - mechanic, electrician, carpenter, whatever and something you can pick up or drop at short notice.
As Scroggs has said before, airlines are probably not looking for degrees, they are looking for good pilots. Having a fall back is your choice and your responsibility. I can't imagine airlines really care if you have one or not. If I was doing the hiring and firing I know I wouldn't.
Years later personal and financial circumstances changed such that I arrived at a point recently where I re-examined flying as a career option. Following aptitude and medical tests, I found it was an option and I could now afford it. So soon I will be leaving engineering and hopefully in about 2 years time I will make it to the RHS (of something/anything!) as a paid professional pilot. If for whatever reason I don't make it I have a fall back. My fall back is there not by design, it just worked out that way and I really do not want to have to use it.Short term it's not a particularly useful one either as the nature of my type of engineering means committing to a design project for at least 6 months but more usually up to 2 years. I can step out of electronic engineering for a good number of years without getting out of date, believe it or not it hasn't changed that much in the last 10 years. However stepping back in and out on a week or so's notice is simply not an option. So if I do get to the stage where I have an fATPL and am in that uphill struggle to land that first job, I must consider options other than engineering to earn a living.
I think WWW is about right when it comes to picking a suitable jobs to fall back on if that is all that you want that job for - ideally find something like an apprenticeship you are interested in and pays well enough for those flying hours - mechanic, electrician, carpenter, whatever and something you can pick up or drop at short notice.
As Scroggs has said before, airlines are probably not looking for degrees, they are looking for good pilots. Having a fall back is your choice and your responsibility. I can't imagine airlines really care if you have one or not. If I was doing the hiring and firing I know I wouldn't.
Terrier
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 564
Likes: 0
From: moonbase alpha
Bucking Bronco,
I think it is you my friend who needs to chill....
I don't think I ADVISED anyone to not get exams, indeed I imagine most people on here are already past the level of education I was talking about. i.e. my own.
So, before talking of soar away egos, just check your motives.
My advice was and is based on my life experience. It may not work for others, indeed your life may have taken a different route. So what if it has? We are doing the job we love, and both doing it well....otherwise we wouldn't be there would we???
So, just back down a little bit please.
I think it is you my friend who needs to chill....
I don't think I ADVISED anyone to not get exams, indeed I imagine most people on here are already past the level of education I was talking about. i.e. my own.
So, before talking of soar away egos, just check your motives.
My advice was and is based on my life experience. It may not work for others, indeed your life may have taken a different route. So what if it has? We are doing the job we love, and both doing it well....otherwise we wouldn't be there would we???
So, just back down a little bit please.
Moderator
Joined: Dec 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,929
Likes: 6
From: Suffolk UK
You lot seem to be competing to provide the right answer for life. Allow me to let you into a little secret: unless it's 42, there isn't one! There are a million ways to skin this particular cat, and any one of them may be right for any one of you.
Let's try this:
In general, it's a good idea to get good GCSEs and A-levels.
In general, a degree is a desirable thing.
In general, airlines aren't too specific about what qualifications they require other than an ATPL.
In general, the job market right now isn't wonderful (though it is improving), so it's a good idea to think about how you might earn your daily bread if you don't get a flying job.
In general, life experience is extremely valuable.
In general, generalisations are meaningless.
Do what you feel is right for you, but do it to the best of your ability. Do not assume that anyone else's route is necessarily the right one for you, but respect the experience of those who have gone before you. Learn from other's mistakes so that you don't repeat them. Don't behave as though you know it all when you are just beginning your life.
Apply these principles, and you will be far more likely to achieve what you want. And if you don't achieve that, you will be well placed to survive comfortably in an alternative scenario.
Let's try this:
In general, it's a good idea to get good GCSEs and A-levels.
In general, a degree is a desirable thing.
In general, airlines aren't too specific about what qualifications they require other than an ATPL.
In general, the job market right now isn't wonderful (though it is improving), so it's a good idea to think about how you might earn your daily bread if you don't get a flying job.
In general, life experience is extremely valuable.
In general, generalisations are meaningless.
Do what you feel is right for you, but do it to the best of your ability. Do not assume that anyone else's route is necessarily the right one for you, but respect the experience of those who have gone before you. Learn from other's mistakes so that you don't repeat them. Don't behave as though you know it all when you are just beginning your life.
Apply these principles, and you will be far more likely to achieve what you want. And if you don't achieve that, you will be well placed to survive comfortably in an alternative scenario.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
From: UK
Tailscrape;- 26th June - "Exams count for naff-all."
Maybe you should remember what you have posted before eh ?
My motives are simple :- to give impartial advice to aspiring wannabes and not to deceive them into thinking that life is a bed of roses in this business and getting a job is a breeze.
There are still a lot of unemployed pilots out there and having other qualifications as I have said before gives you a better edge than not having them. If you disagree that - thats your right.
Without exams Tailsacrape, you would not be flying commercially would you ? I put it to you that they do count for something.
Its interesting that British Airways takes most of its cadets with degree qualification. Right or wrongly, that is fact.
You, by your own admission have been "lucky." I don't think preaching luck is good advice to anyone. Thats my opinion and my right to think that way.
So Chill out !
Maybe you should remember what you have posted before eh ?
My motives are simple :- to give impartial advice to aspiring wannabes and not to deceive them into thinking that life is a bed of roses in this business and getting a job is a breeze.
There are still a lot of unemployed pilots out there and having other qualifications as I have said before gives you a better edge than not having them. If you disagree that - thats your right.
Without exams Tailsacrape, you would not be flying commercially would you ? I put it to you that they do count for something.
Its interesting that British Airways takes most of its cadets with degree qualification. Right or wrongly, that is fact.
You, by your own admission have been "lucky." I don't think preaching luck is good advice to anyone. Thats my opinion and my right to think that way.
So Chill out !
Last edited by Bucking Bronco; 29th June 2002 at 14:10.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
From: BHX
Piperpilot
Just an onlooker here buddy who rarely brouses the threads.
I think the advice given by Scroggs is just about spot on. Its not a necessity to have qualifications but it does give you a better chance.
I was a self-sponsored student and am still paying back plenty of training-related debt ! Bucking Bronco is correct in his assertion that most of the cadets are graduates from my experience on a CAP 509 course. I couldn't give you precise figures but whilst I was training with some of them, the mix I would say was about 3 graduates to every 1 non-graduate.
Going to college - beer, women, late nights and no responsibility suited me at the time but then its not everyones cup of tea.
Good luck whatever path you take.
Just an onlooker here buddy who rarely brouses the threads.
I think the advice given by Scroggs is just about spot on. Its not a necessity to have qualifications but it does give you a better chance.
I was a self-sponsored student and am still paying back plenty of training-related debt ! Bucking Bronco is correct in his assertion that most of the cadets are graduates from my experience on a CAP 509 course. I couldn't give you precise figures but whilst I was training with some of them, the mix I would say was about 3 graduates to every 1 non-graduate.
Going to college - beer, women, late nights and no responsibility suited me at the time but then its not everyones cup of tea.
Good luck whatever path you take.
Last edited by LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK; 29th June 2002 at 12:44.