Air Taxi Companys
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Air Taxi Companys
Having recently completed my FATPL and having 400 hours total I am ofcourse looking down every route for employment. Having just spoken to a number of Air Taxi companys I have just learnt that under JAR the minimum hours allowable for single crew operations is 700. Could someone clarify what the requirements are under the CAA system at present and in your opinion when will all operators be under the JAR here in the uk???? Cheers....
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I am also interested in hearing some views on this. Maybe it would be helpful to duplicate the post in the GA Forum.
If anyone has experience of Air Taxi operations (Pilot Pete?
) Please post.
Thanks,
Laurie.
If anyone has experience of Air Taxi operations (Pilot Pete?
) Please post.Thanks,
Laurie.
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It is true that under JAROPS that 700 hours time is required for single crew operation.
However operators will strugle to find such pilots when the market picks up again and many air taxy operators lose pilots to the airlines at around 1000 hours.
Air taxy operators have successfully used CAP509 pilots in the past you will probably find that providing the operators have a reasonable CAA Ops inspector that they will be granted an exemption to this rule.
However operators will strugle to find such pilots when the market picks up again and many air taxy operators lose pilots to the airlines at around 1000 hours.
Air taxy operators have successfully used CAP509 pilots in the past you will probably find that providing the operators have a reasonable CAA Ops inspector that they will be granted an exemption to this rule.
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I would be surprised if air taxi operators lose any pilots to airlines after 1000 hours. Extensive experience in single pilot operations is not considered with any huge interest by airlines these days. The attention now is on CRM. Many airlines base their recruitment heavily on this quality. The work required to retrain a pilot, who has hauled an aircraft around airways as single crew, from a one man band to a multi-crew environment is extensive when compared to a recent graduate.
That said, and returning to the issue, the personality of the corparate pilot is quite different from that of the airline pilot and I suppose a company may seek an exemption if the right type of pilot pitches up. But don't bank on it; there will always be surplus pilots out there, now and in the future. 700 hours is what you need, I'm afraid.
Try posting on the 'Biz Jets and GA' Forum - I'll be interested to read what comes up.
Good Luck!
That said, and returning to the issue, the personality of the corparate pilot is quite different from that of the airline pilot and I suppose a company may seek an exemption if the right type of pilot pitches up. But don't bank on it; there will always be surplus pilots out there, now and in the future. 700 hours is what you need, I'm afraid.
Try posting on the 'Biz Jets and GA' Forum - I'll be interested to read what comes up.
Good Luck!
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Yes it must be very hard to retrain an air taxi pilot who has flown in all sort of weather patterns on his own, had to make decisions on his own, had to put up with commercial pressure on his own etc....
It's soooo more desirable to take 165h graduate who has never flown on his own in IMC, had an instructor sat next to him/her during the vast majority of his/her training and has never carried passengers.....
It seems sooo logical.........
Having trained CAP509 students and being an air taxi pilot, I think it would only be fair from the airline industry to assess people irrespective of their background.
Don't get me wrong! Some 165h pilots are very good indeed and have a far better potential than a sloppy air taxi pilot with thousands of hours on Seneca.
All I am asking for is selection without prejudice.
It's soooo more desirable to take 165h graduate who has never flown on his own in IMC, had an instructor sat next to him/her during the vast majority of his/her training and has never carried passengers.....
It seems sooo logical.........
Having trained CAP509 students and being an air taxi pilot, I think it would only be fair from the airline industry to assess people irrespective of their background.
Don't get me wrong! Some 165h pilots are very good indeed and have a far better potential than a sloppy air taxi pilot with thousands of hours on Seneca.
All I am asking for is selection without prejudice.
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Well yes, it is harder to retrain the type of pilot you described. The most important quality to airlines these days is operating the aircraft as a team. Including your colleague(s) in your decisions, sharing the workload and duties, and working in a multi-crew environment is so unnatural even to 200 hour freshly qualified pilots. But it's a skill that airlines need pilots to develop, perhaps over and above the individual's ability to battle alone through all sorts of weather patterns and suffer all the other pressures mentioned.
It's a different quality, that's all. Airlines may recognise the multi-crew environment of your instructing experience before that of your air taxi experience.
But you're fully justified to expect at least an opportunity to be selected.
It's a different quality, that's all. Airlines may recognise the multi-crew environment of your instructing experience before that of your air taxi experience.
But you're fully justified to expect at least an opportunity to be selected.
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Hey Ivanovitch, you are right there. I mean I fly single pilot,have no social skills, no manners, can barely speak (but rather groan quite well),have done an MCC but obviously did terribly bad because you understand, I m so narrow minded.
I obviously can't understand the benefit of a two crew cooperation and I am quite surprised because the CAA hasn't imposed steel bars between me and the passengers. I mean not to protect me from attacks, but you see, I could very well eat them since us, single pilot are barely human and have been known to have little children for breakfast
.
Sorry but crew cooperation is something that has existed a long time before today's MCC and the reason it works with a pilot rather than an other is only down to the individual.
One of the qualities one should have is a willingness to learn and change for the better.
cheers....
(crawling back to my cave and finish the next door neighbour's dog I m having for lunch. Burp!)
I obviously can't understand the benefit of a two crew cooperation and I am quite surprised because the CAA hasn't imposed steel bars between me and the passengers. I mean not to protect me from attacks, but you see, I could very well eat them since us, single pilot are barely human and have been known to have little children for breakfast
.Sorry but crew cooperation is something that has existed a long time before today's MCC and the reason it works with a pilot rather than an other is only down to the individual.
One of the qualities one should have is a willingness to learn and change for the better.
cheers....
(crawling back to my cave and finish the next door neighbour's dog I m having for lunch. Burp!)
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Ivan,
You are full of sh!t.
I work for a UK jet operator that hires almost exclusively air taxi pilots with flying backgrounds in the UK, US, Oz, NZ and Africa, and a couple of high time instructors. You couldn't ask for a more experienced, crm oriented bunch of people.
The majority of 'worrying' flying stories that you hear come from ex-military peeps and low houred guys.
I'll get my flak jacket.
Cloggy.
You are full of sh!t.
I work for a UK jet operator that hires almost exclusively air taxi pilots with flying backgrounds in the UK, US, Oz, NZ and Africa, and a couple of high time instructors. You couldn't ask for a more experienced, crm oriented bunch of people.
The majority of 'worrying' flying stories that you hear come from ex-military peeps and low houred guys.
I'll get my flak jacket.
Cloggy.
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Ivan
No offense, but I have to agree with Clog's first statement
You say"...there will always be surplus pilots out there..." but you cannot back that up. Yes historically this has been the case, but in the last few years there have been many factors to change that.
1) Cost - due to changes in the tax structure and the difficulty of JAA the cost of an ATPL course is up by around £10-15 000. This puts it to the level where no bank will fund the lot without security, and many people will not or cannot risk their own funds.
2) JAA course structure - the course is more difficult, and no longer alows unapproved training. Therefore fewer take the course, more fail to complete it, and the great source of instructors self-improving has gone, as have the source of air-taxi pilots with non-approved training needing more time before airlines will consider them.
3) JAA requires all instructors to have a CPL before they can earn money. This means either (a) fewer instructors and less GA or (b) more low-time CPL and frozen ATPL instructing, for mor expensive GA and fewer available to the air-taxi operations. I suspect a mix of the two, but both tend to reduce the number of pilots around in commercial aviation, especially with no self-improvers teaching.
4) Rules over GA are tending to get stricter (apart from the NPPL) so making it more expensive. With other increases in costs and increasing willingness of councils to take note of noise complaints this will reduce the amount of GA, the traditional source of most commercial pilots.
There has traditionally been an excess of pilots in this country, enough to supply many middle- and far-eastern airlines. This will not necessarily be the case in the next few years.
No offense, but I have to agree with Clog's first statement
You say"...there will always be surplus pilots out there..." but you cannot back that up. Yes historically this has been the case, but in the last few years there have been many factors to change that.
1) Cost - due to changes in the tax structure and the difficulty of JAA the cost of an ATPL course is up by around £10-15 000. This puts it to the level where no bank will fund the lot without security, and many people will not or cannot risk their own funds.
2) JAA course structure - the course is more difficult, and no longer alows unapproved training. Therefore fewer take the course, more fail to complete it, and the great source of instructors self-improving has gone, as have the source of air-taxi pilots with non-approved training needing more time before airlines will consider them.
3) JAA requires all instructors to have a CPL before they can earn money. This means either (a) fewer instructors and less GA or (b) more low-time CPL and frozen ATPL instructing, for mor expensive GA and fewer available to the air-taxi operations. I suspect a mix of the two, but both tend to reduce the number of pilots around in commercial aviation, especially with no self-improvers teaching.
4) Rules over GA are tending to get stricter (apart from the NPPL) so making it more expensive. With other increases in costs and increasing willingness of councils to take note of noise complaints this will reduce the amount of GA, the traditional source of most commercial pilots.
There has traditionally been an excess of pilots in this country, enough to supply many middle- and far-eastern airlines. This will not necessarily be the case in the next few years.
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By the way to reply to the initial question, our company doesn't employ anyone with less than a 1000 hours P1 which is why it makes it a popular one to join for instructors. There is also a restriction on twin time but that seems to be more flexible probably because not related to insurance premium (my guess).
In any case, JAR isn't going to help low timers very much so good luck all and patience.
In any case, JAR isn't going to help low timers very much so good luck all and patience.
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Ivan, I'm not sure whether your post reflects your personal views or that of a recruiting dept that you have contact with but either way it is one of the biggest loads of rubbish I have ever read on this forum.
I have been involved as a C&T'r on turboprops and have done any number of conversions for guys/girls coming from air-taxi companies and guys/girls straight from flying schools. Believe me any remedial training that is required 98% of the time goes to the low-hour bods.
Single-pilot IFR flying is recognised as being 'as hard as it gets' in aviation. If the s**t hit the fan I would much rather have someone sitting in the right-hand seat with me who has some experience rather than having the world's most suitable CRM pilot who is seeing this all for the first time.
If your view is that reflected by any airline recruitment department then I suggest that they have a serious re-think on the policy.
Griv
I have been involved as a C&T'r on turboprops and have done any number of conversions for guys/girls coming from air-taxi companies and guys/girls straight from flying schools. Believe me any remedial training that is required 98% of the time goes to the low-hour bods.
Single-pilot IFR flying is recognised as being 'as hard as it gets' in aviation. If the s**t hit the fan I would much rather have someone sitting in the right-hand seat with me who has some experience rather than having the world's most suitable CRM pilot who is seeing this all for the first time.
If your view is that reflected by any airline recruitment department then I suggest that they have a serious re-think on the policy.
Griv
I tip my hat to pilots who have flown single pilot IFR on ad hoc charter. This is hard core flying and make no mistake.
I feel there is a little too much emphasis on "team flying". At the end of the day a non-precision approach in a jet in poor weather is a highly skilled proposition. Someone who has done hundreds in a slightish aircraft is going to be somewhat useful.
Integrated students have flown something akin to 34hrs SOLO in their flying careers. The rest of their time with an INSTRUCTOR. Not a bit of which is Multi Crewl. 3 days on an MCC course is not some panacia <check spelling>.
To regard an ex-air taxi or maybe freight pilot as somewhat inferior due to his time spent flying solo is perverse.
Are RAF fighter pilots 'suspect' as airline pilots because they are used to doing things their own way? Exactly.
WWW
I feel there is a little too much emphasis on "team flying". At the end of the day a non-precision approach in a jet in poor weather is a highly skilled proposition. Someone who has done hundreds in a slightish aircraft is going to be somewhat useful.
Integrated students have flown something akin to 34hrs SOLO in their flying careers. The rest of their time with an INSTRUCTOR. Not a bit of which is Multi Crewl. 3 days on an MCC course is not some panacia <check spelling>.
To regard an ex-air taxi or maybe freight pilot as somewhat inferior due to his time spent flying solo is perverse.
Are RAF fighter pilots 'suspect' as airline pilots because they are used to doing things their own way? Exactly.
WWW
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Not quite the reply that I wanted but as Laurie says ' very useful'! What do the airlines really want?? I would think that anyone who can do single crew operation should/could react far quicker when the crap hits the fan?!?! My sentiments entirely WWW!!!!
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laurie
Apologies for not getting involved earlier, this was due to spending two nights practicing for 2 crew ops into TFS and CFU!
Ivan
You are right, I had terrible trouble letting the captain play with any of the buttons and switches from day one, with my two heads (acquired whilst single crew flying) one was saying "crm, crm, crm" and the other screaming "leave it alone IT'S ALL MINE!!"
Airlines employ PEOPLE. Simple as that. They have certain minimum requirements (like a licence, medical, maybe some experience etc) that act as a filter to get the numbers down to a managable figure for interview, then what they are really after is assessing your character to see if you are suitable for their operation. Most airlines these days seem to want a mix (or demograph ) where you don't employ everybody exactly the same, that way they are more likely to get on better together, makes for more intersting cockpit conversation too! This demograph is a fluid thing which adjusts with time as the requirements need redressing to keep the balance, for instance, in the past airline 'x' may have had a huge recruitment where they took all their F/O's under the age of 25. This will lead to a 'bulge' in the demograph of pilots in a certain age bracket, which may lead to problems later on (all wanting command at the same sort of time and not enough being available, all retiring around the same time etc etc). The demographic requirements will change due to this i.e. possibly recruit more low hours pilots who won't be ready for command for a number of years if you already have too many F/O's chomping at the bit. It all depends on the projections for pilot recruitment. Ideally, get the mix right and then recruit a mixture, young and older, high flyer/ reliable plodder etc etc. Unfortunately current market trends seem to be so short termist that the above may be harder to achieve than it would appear.
So, Ivan, history proves you wrong in so much that just about all air taxi pilots go on to airline jobs (apart from the 'hard core' who have no interest in airline careers) and as for airlines not valueing your single crew experience I think you will find it to be the complete opposite, especially as most of your single crew experience will be in a 2 engined aircraft with variable pitch props AND retractable gear (wow!) and we all know just how hard it is to get those twin hours up and why we all want so many of them.
If you could please state from what experience you have gleaned your views about 'corporate flying culture' being so different from 'airline flying' Ivan I would be interested to hear because as far as I can see it's all down to the individual character and nothing to do with which type of flying 'mould' you've been set in. Just because a guy may have spent several years in an airline it doesn't mean that he can't order the catering, file his own flight plans and generally muck in with the corporate crews. In fact, if he's had air taxi experience he would probably slot in quite nicely!
It is no harder to train an ex-single crew guy in two crew ops than it is a low hour guy, if anything I would suggest it is easier in general due to the higher level of experience allowing more 'thinking time' to be utilised in areas other than hand flying.
As regards current and future experience level requirements for air taxi pilots I must say I have been out of the loop for a couple of years, but I certainly know it was a concern for my old employer. JAR requires 700hrs min, in reality that's the sort of figure they were requiring pre-JAR as insurance costs were so high for less experienced pilots. The problem was the self improver route ceasing which was traditionally where their pilots came from. Is it possible to do an integrated course, finish with circa 200hrs then add an FI(R) rating and instruct up to 700hrs? If it is I can see the biggest problem being that it has to be an integrated course and the associated costs being prohibitive to many.
As has been pointed out by others, once an FI gets 700hrs he is then into the realms of airline employment (obviously not in the current market), but when things change for the better that same person, unless driven to fly single crew, is more likely to be pushing for an airline job. It's all a big cycle, it's in the future that the air taxi operators may find it difficult to find suitable pilots.
As for the shortage of pilots in the future, well, all the captains I've spoken to about this say that this has been the case for as long as they can remember, it's always been 'just round the corner' but never really materialised. It certainly won't be for a few years yet, but if the forecasts for airline travel growth are to be believed then there cannot fail to be a shortage unless something is done.
Again, good luck to all you Wannabes.
PP
Apologies for not getting involved earlier, this was due to spending two nights practicing for 2 crew ops into TFS and CFU!
Ivan
You are right, I had terrible trouble letting the captain play with any of the buttons and switches from day one, with my two heads (acquired whilst single crew flying) one was saying "crm, crm, crm" and the other screaming "leave it alone IT'S ALL MINE!!"
Airlines employ PEOPLE. Simple as that. They have certain minimum requirements (like a licence, medical, maybe some experience etc) that act as a filter to get the numbers down to a managable figure for interview, then what they are really after is assessing your character to see if you are suitable for their operation. Most airlines these days seem to want a mix (or demograph ) where you don't employ everybody exactly the same, that way they are more likely to get on better together, makes for more intersting cockpit conversation too! This demograph is a fluid thing which adjusts with time as the requirements need redressing to keep the balance, for instance, in the past airline 'x' may have had a huge recruitment where they took all their F/O's under the age of 25. This will lead to a 'bulge' in the demograph of pilots in a certain age bracket, which may lead to problems later on (all wanting command at the same sort of time and not enough being available, all retiring around the same time etc etc). The demographic requirements will change due to this i.e. possibly recruit more low hours pilots who won't be ready for command for a number of years if you already have too many F/O's chomping at the bit. It all depends on the projections for pilot recruitment. Ideally, get the mix right and then recruit a mixture, young and older, high flyer/ reliable plodder etc etc. Unfortunately current market trends seem to be so short termist that the above may be harder to achieve than it would appear.
So, Ivan, history proves you wrong in so much that just about all air taxi pilots go on to airline jobs (apart from the 'hard core' who have no interest in airline careers) and as for airlines not valueing your single crew experience I think you will find it to be the complete opposite, especially as most of your single crew experience will be in a 2 engined aircraft with variable pitch props AND retractable gear (wow!) and we all know just how hard it is to get those twin hours up and why we all want so many of them.
If you could please state from what experience you have gleaned your views about 'corporate flying culture' being so different from 'airline flying' Ivan I would be interested to hear because as far as I can see it's all down to the individual character and nothing to do with which type of flying 'mould' you've been set in. Just because a guy may have spent several years in an airline it doesn't mean that he can't order the catering, file his own flight plans and generally muck in with the corporate crews. In fact, if he's had air taxi experience he would probably slot in quite nicely!
It is no harder to train an ex-single crew guy in two crew ops than it is a low hour guy, if anything I would suggest it is easier in general due to the higher level of experience allowing more 'thinking time' to be utilised in areas other than hand flying.
As regards current and future experience level requirements for air taxi pilots I must say I have been out of the loop for a couple of years, but I certainly know it was a concern for my old employer. JAR requires 700hrs min, in reality that's the sort of figure they were requiring pre-JAR as insurance costs were so high for less experienced pilots. The problem was the self improver route ceasing which was traditionally where their pilots came from. Is it possible to do an integrated course, finish with circa 200hrs then add an FI(R) rating and instruct up to 700hrs? If it is I can see the biggest problem being that it has to be an integrated course and the associated costs being prohibitive to many.
As has been pointed out by others, once an FI gets 700hrs he is then into the realms of airline employment (obviously not in the current market), but when things change for the better that same person, unless driven to fly single crew, is more likely to be pushing for an airline job. It's all a big cycle, it's in the future that the air taxi operators may find it difficult to find suitable pilots.
As for the shortage of pilots in the future, well, all the captains I've spoken to about this say that this has been the case for as long as they can remember, it's always been 'just round the corner' but never really materialised. It certainly won't be for a few years yet, but if the forecasts for airline travel growth are to be believed then there cannot fail to be a shortage unless something is done.
Again, good luck to all you Wannabes.
PP
