Brits and CTC
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
From: England
Hi FIBOD,
I,m sure that the academy is great for the cadets and associated airlines but you miss my point.
Cheap labour being placed into the jobs many established pilots aspire to attain can only damage the market.
If there is little pilot movement between companies within this industry then how can existing pay and benifits be improved or (in my case) even maintained!
Britannia also have the advantage of the "Second Officer" salery. Once a low hour ctc cadet finishes six months they're then paid 10 grand less than an F/O!!!!
All the best.
BronzeAge
I,m sure that the academy is great for the cadets and associated airlines but you miss my point.
Cheap labour being placed into the jobs many established pilots aspire to attain can only damage the market.
If there is little pilot movement between companies within this industry then how can existing pay and benifits be improved or (in my case) even maintained!
Britannia also have the advantage of the "Second Officer" salery. Once a low hour ctc cadet finishes six months they're then paid 10 grand less than an F/O!!!!
All the best.
BronzeAge
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
From: Right Here.
Piperpilot: Everyones circumstances are different. You may very well be able to afford to live in London on £1000/month, others can not.
As for low hour opportunites Britts have recruited low hour guys well before the rumour of CTC pilots was floated. I know of one PPRUNE'R who has been in the hold 3 years!!
Bronzeage: Latest rumour is after interview only a small minority of CTC pilots have made the cut. Im not too sure if those successfull still need to pass a sim ride or even if they will be offered jobs. Maybe 'Mr Bombastic' can enlighten everyone?
I'm going to guess the next step is watch FLIGHT for 757 experienced pilots.
Good luck guys.
MAX
As for low hour opportunites Britts have recruited low hour guys well before the rumour of CTC pilots was floated. I know of one PPRUNE'R who has been in the hold 3 years!!
Bronzeage: Latest rumour is after interview only a small minority of CTC pilots have made the cut. Im not too sure if those successfull still need to pass a sim ride or even if they will be offered jobs. Maybe 'Mr Bombastic' can enlighten everyone?
I'm going to guess the next step is watch FLIGHT for 757 experienced pilots.
Good luck guys.
MAX
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
From: Right Here.
just for Piperpilot...
This chap has been in the 'Britts' holdpool for 3 years. Not CTC. He/She is still is constant contact with HR and has re-done the whole selection procedure TWICE at their request and still been up to the grade. This pilot deserves a BREAK!
The reason I said London was for two (2) reasons:
1) London is the most expensive. Correct. So if you have limited income (£1000/mth) it make sense to to budget for this city as that is where you may be based. Esp. if you have wife kids etc. Bare in mind Britts dont contribute to relocation costs. Which leeds me to...
2)You aren't guaranteed getting your preffered base. You may bid MAN no.1 and GTW no.10, but still find yourself southbound. My base changed twice before I even started and it still was 'way' down the list.
Britts also made it very clear we had to live within 1hr 30min drive of the airport. So I'm not too sure how your plans would work there.
Just a question? Are you in either holdpool?
MAX
The reason I said London was for two (2) reasons:
1) London is the most expensive. Correct. So if you have limited income (£1000/mth) it make sense to to budget for this city as that is where you may be based. Esp. if you have wife kids etc. Bare in mind Britts dont contribute to relocation costs. Which leeds me to...
2)You aren't guaranteed getting your preffered base. You may bid MAN no.1 and GTW no.10, but still find yourself southbound. My base changed twice before I even started and it still was 'way' down the list.
Britts also made it very clear we had to live within 1hr 30min drive of the airport. So I'm not too sure how your plans would work there.
Just a question? Are you in either holdpool?
MAX
Terrier
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 564
Likes: 0
From: moonbase alpha
MAX/Bronze Age,
I cannot really get involved, because I was ex CTC, now in another outfit. I do however agree that working for free is not good.....
As to your positions, I suspect that Brits may make you do ot all again....and I bet you both pass again!
Don't let this get you down, and I wouldn't "slag off" anyone or the airline on here (I know you aren't).
MAX, I think you talked about bizjets and Ibiza......... what the hell do you want to swap that for night Dalaman's for???!?!?!?
Piper Pilot,
You don't seem to me to know the full story. Perhaps a little research before going thru the mill with these guys who have done the tests and worn the T Shirt???
Mr Bombastic,
You have gone very quiet on the CTC front. How did you get on??? Did you ace it, or did you BOMBastic out at interview?? (only kidding, I hope you did OK
)
Regards all.
I cannot really get involved, because I was ex CTC, now in another outfit. I do however agree that working for free is not good.....
As to your positions, I suspect that Brits may make you do ot all again....and I bet you both pass again!
Don't let this get you down, and I wouldn't "slag off" anyone or the airline on here (I know you aren't).
MAX, I think you talked about bizjets and Ibiza......... what the hell do you want to swap that for night Dalaman's for???!?!?!?
Piper Pilot,
You don't seem to me to know the full story. Perhaps a little research before going thru the mill with these guys who have done the tests and worn the T Shirt???
Mr Bombastic,
You have gone very quiet on the CTC front. How did you get on??? Did you ace it, or did you BOMBastic out at interview?? (only kidding, I hope you did OK
)Regards all.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
From: England
Dear piperpilot,
Don't get me wrong I really enjoy my job. Once you have gained some time in the industry you realise just how important things like pay, conditions and lifestyle actually are.
I,m sure that when eventually you leave the financial security of your parents you will see the light.
And as for commuting, due to certain circumstances I do the return drive MCT to BHX three times a week. On top of this pay for a mortgage and digs........pay packet, where did that go?????
All the best
BronzeAge
Don't get me wrong I really enjoy my job. Once you have gained some time in the industry you realise just how important things like pay, conditions and lifestyle actually are.
I,m sure that when eventually you leave the financial security of your parents you will see the light.
And as for commuting, due to certain circumstances I do the return drive MCT to BHX three times a week. On top of this pay for a mortgage and digs........pay packet, where did that go?????
All the best
BronzeAge
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 447
Likes: 2
From: uk
Well good luck to the six that start on the 17th, prehaps if they are on line they can enlighten us as to their selection process and there experience level.
I myself am, quite rightly in my opinion, pretty miffed but well what can you do but stay on the line and hold on tight.
Well after 4 years of looking for a job i thought i had finally made it, so close and yet so far. Lets hope the market picks up soon.
I do agree with the comments that CTC damage the job market, however if i was able to pay for a job i would. It´s similar to the Cathey Ban, would you take a job on a shiney new 747 or say "no thanks, i can´t take it due to the union (which i am not a member) ban. Catch 22. I guess maybe BALBA or IPA could put a similar ban on CTC?
Bluebaron
ps if anyway has any inside info on the holdpool i´ll would like to hear it
I myself am, quite rightly in my opinion, pretty miffed but well what can you do but stay on the line and hold on tight.
Well after 4 years of looking for a job i thought i had finally made it, so close and yet so far. Lets hope the market picks up soon.
I do agree with the comments that CTC damage the job market, however if i was able to pay for a job i would. It´s similar to the Cathey Ban, would you take a job on a shiney new 747 or say "no thanks, i can´t take it due to the union (which i am not a member) ban. Catch 22. I guess maybe BALBA or IPA could put a similar ban on CTC?
Bluebaron
ps if anyway has any inside info on the holdpool i´ll would like to hear it
Terrier
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 564
Likes: 0
From: moonbase alpha
Bluebaron,
Don't talk nonsense. If you apply to CTC and get thrown out pre AQC, then it costs you nothing. If you get as far as a place on AQC, i think you can assume that if you perform, you will get a job.
Yes, it costs Six Grand, but then so does the "ASTRAEUS PPRUNE CADET SCHEME". ......... Would you like that banned too?
Now, accept you have been unlucky, or pay the Six Grand like others have.
CTC is not like Cathay, and I am p?ssed at you for suggesting that.
Your comments are not well informed, and I would suggest u reconsider (and perhaps consider removing them) your post.
I understand your disappointment, but don't be rash.
If CTC were so bad for the industry, would the Britannia BALPA Company Council allow these cadets to join??????????? After all, Britannia CC is perhaps the strongets in the business....
Don't talk nonsense. If you apply to CTC and get thrown out pre AQC, then it costs you nothing. If you get as far as a place on AQC, i think you can assume that if you perform, you will get a job.
Yes, it costs Six Grand, but then so does the "ASTRAEUS PPRUNE CADET SCHEME". ......... Would you like that banned too?
Now, accept you have been unlucky, or pay the Six Grand like others have.
CTC is not like Cathay, and I am p?ssed at you for suggesting that.
Your comments are not well informed, and I would suggest u reconsider (and perhaps consider removing them) your post.
I understand your disappointment, but don't be rash.
If CTC were so bad for the industry, would the Britannia BALPA Company Council allow these cadets to join??????????? After all, Britannia CC is perhaps the strongets in the business....
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 447
Likes: 2
From: uk
Tailscape,
I think we will have to agree to disagree on that point. I am mearly agreeing with Bronseage when he states:
"I,m sure that the academy is great for the cadets and associated airlines but you miss my point.
Cheap labour being placed into the jobs many established pilots aspire to attain can only damage the market.
If there is little pilot movement between companies within this industry then how can existing pay and benifits be improved or (in my case) even maintained! "
The comparison i was making (prehaps misjudged) was that you can end up stuck between a rock and a hard place, does one turn down an offer because it damages the industry, or take it for personal gain. In the case of Cathey Pacific it actully helps the industy, as it would improve pilot contitions, but in CTC´s case, it would, in my view damage it.
Don´t get me wrong if i could afford to work for free for 6 months and pay for a course that i have already completed then i would.
I also wish those people that can afford it (and can complete the selection process ) the best of luck.
Bluebaron
Ps if anyone wants to start a poll outlining the pro´s and cons then go ahead. The results should make interesting reading.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on that point. I am mearly agreeing with Bronseage when he states:
"I,m sure that the academy is great for the cadets and associated airlines but you miss my point.
Cheap labour being placed into the jobs many established pilots aspire to attain can only damage the market.
If there is little pilot movement between companies within this industry then how can existing pay and benifits be improved or (in my case) even maintained! "
The comparison i was making (prehaps misjudged) was that you can end up stuck between a rock and a hard place, does one turn down an offer because it damages the industry, or take it for personal gain. In the case of Cathey Pacific it actully helps the industy, as it would improve pilot contitions, but in CTC´s case, it would, in my view damage it.
Don´t get me wrong if i could afford to work for free for 6 months and pay for a course that i have already completed then i would.
I also wish those people that can afford it (and can complete the selection process ) the best of luck.
Bluebaron
Ps if anyone wants to start a poll outlining the pro´s and cons then go ahead. The results should make interesting reading.
Last edited by Bluebaron; 6th July 2002 at 14:44.
Terrier
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 564
Likes: 0
From: moonbase alpha
Fair enough, and I do agree that cheap labour is not a good way to go.
I did CTC and increased debt due to not earning!
What it gives the lines involved though is a pretty much guaranteed product, and the opportunity to offset some training risk involved in employing young, inexperienced pilots.
Good luck to you.
If there is a silver lining in this instance for you, it may be that Brits only took 6, not 15 or so.....
What next? Hold pool or type rated pilot's for them do you reckon??
I did CTC and increased debt due to not earning!
What it gives the lines involved though is a pretty much guaranteed product, and the opportunity to offset some training risk involved in employing young, inexperienced pilots.
Good luck to you.
If there is a silver lining in this instance for you, it may be that Brits only took 6, not 15 or so.....
What next? Hold pool or type rated pilot's for them do you reckon??
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: UK
I heard from another source that they were taking 25 people form CTC, including 12 dutch from Cabair...
Well, like Bluebaron I am not very impressed by the latest Britannia move. I was as well on the Supposed "pool" and I have this strange feeling to be sinking now... As I said, I heard from another source that it is a lot more than 6 people who have been selected.
The dutch guys are in a different scheme as far as I know. They were selected ab-initio to do a Frozen ATPL at Cabair, to then enter the CTC scheme to get 6 months on a JET. They had to pay for all that around £60,000... I am not joking because I know some of them working for easyjet.
With Sept 11th, a lot of them were swiming in the pool of CTC, having completed a 757 rating without a job. CTC was probably pretty keen to get them in a flying job. But with those guys paying £ 60k to CTC it was probably easy for CTC to offer a good deal to whichever airline...
I am just trying to understand why all the good jobs (+salaries) are going to people with no experience. I do think it is all about money...
CTC is not helping the business, it is just helping the people that can afford from £6000 to £60,000. That is my point of view anyway.
Happy landings
Well, like Bluebaron I am not very impressed by the latest Britannia move. I was as well on the Supposed "pool" and I have this strange feeling to be sinking now... As I said, I heard from another source that it is a lot more than 6 people who have been selected.
The dutch guys are in a different scheme as far as I know. They were selected ab-initio to do a Frozen ATPL at Cabair, to then enter the CTC scheme to get 6 months on a JET. They had to pay for all that around £60,000... I am not joking because I know some of them working for easyjet.
With Sept 11th, a lot of them were swiming in the pool of CTC, having completed a 757 rating without a job. CTC was probably pretty keen to get them in a flying job. But with those guys paying £ 60k to CTC it was probably easy for CTC to offer a good deal to whichever airline...
I am just trying to understand why all the good jobs (+salaries) are going to people with no experience. I do think it is all about money...
CTC is not helping the business, it is just helping the people that can afford from £6000 to £60,000. That is my point of view anyway.
Happy landings
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: Near EGCC
Hey all,
Fly Star, what do you mean that the guys who were rated on the 75 had paid CTC 60K, you lost me there, i thought they paid them 6K and that the type rating was then given them if they were selected???
Then the usual story of paying them back over so many years blah blah and blah....
Cheers
Fly Star, what do you mean that the guys who were rated on the 75 had paid CTC 60K, you lost me there, i thought they paid them 6K and that the type rating was then given them if they were selected???
Then the usual story of paying them back over so many years blah blah and blah....
Cheers
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 359
Likes: 10
From: London
Cleared think he meant for the whole thing including Cabair ATPL training costs, well that is how I read the message.
Saw the magic words Cadet scheme, any more details of what you need to apply or is it just that they have signed a contract for the future and it is up to Brits when/if they decide to have scheme.
I do feel very sorry for those in the hold pool, you have all spent lots of money getting so far, and was successfully climbing the ladder only for it to appear that is has been pulled from under you, temporarily. I genuinely hope that Brittania will offer you something soon. I can't really get into the debate of CTC v Hold pool, but just thought I would wish you all luck.
Sagey
Saw the magic words Cadet scheme, any more details of what you need to apply or is it just that they have signed a contract for the future and it is up to Brits when/if they decide to have scheme.
I do feel very sorry for those in the hold pool, you have all spent lots of money getting so far, and was successfully climbing the ladder only for it to appear that is has been pulled from under you, temporarily. I genuinely hope that Brittania will offer you something soon. I can't really get into the debate of CTC v Hold pool, but just thought I would wish you all luck.
Sagey
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
From: UK
For the record, I am 75 rated with another charter operator who laid pilots off last December and them brought them back on permanent part year contracts 4 months later. That equates to 60% wages for 8 months work through the Summer and laid off in the winter. My interest in Brits/CTC is in obtaining a permanent contract again. I have 600 plus hours on the 75 and 3000 plus hours total. The issue here is that CTC cadets are paid a lot less than a permanent pilot and are therefore more attractive a proposition from the beancounters point of view. Beancounters don't give a tosh about experience they just want the cheapest bums in a right hand seat that they can get. I have no axe to grind with guys from CTC, good luck to you all. However what this all means is a degradation of T&C for right hand seat pilots as a whole which will affect CTC guys and their ilk, in time to come when they lose their ab-initio status.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: UK
Cleared,
as far as I know there are 2 kinds of CTC "cadet" :
- The "normal" ones with the £6 K deal...
- The Ab-initio ones with the £60 K deal. It is a sort of sponsorship whereby people pay £60 k and get a Frozen ATPL with a british flying school (the school being Cabair at the moment). After Cabair they go to CTC for MCC + type rating on a jet. They are garantied a job for 6 months with a jet operator. Most of the guys on the £60 K deal are dutch because the selections and advertisment for the scheme are (or used to be ?)in The Netherlands.
It is a very expensive deal for the "cadets", as they have to pay a lot of money, but it gets them to nice aircrafts, on good salaries. A lot of those dutch cadets have joined Easyjet like that, because Easyjet works quiet a lot with CTC.
CTC would probably be very keen at the moment to find a job for those "cadets" because of the T & C of the £60 K loan. Apparently, they don't have to pay until they have a jet position for 6 months. Therefore, CTC would try to get a job for those guys at all costs... If you know what I mean.
I got all this information from one of those dutch guys... I haven't checked the contract myself so I can't garanty the truth about all that. All I know for sure, when I did my training, there were a few dutch people on the £60 K deal, and they are all flying now with major british airlines.
If I am wrong, please let me know. I have nothing against anybody and I wish good luck to those who got the job. But all that is not very good for experienced pilots who are trying to get a job with a good airline, as all the (good) jobs are taken by low experience people.
I heard that Monarch would take some of those CTC cadets as well
Happy landings
as far as I know there are 2 kinds of CTC "cadet" :
- The "normal" ones with the £6 K deal...
- The Ab-initio ones with the £60 K deal. It is a sort of sponsorship whereby people pay £60 k and get a Frozen ATPL with a british flying school (the school being Cabair at the moment). After Cabair they go to CTC for MCC + type rating on a jet. They are garantied a job for 6 months with a jet operator. Most of the guys on the £60 K deal are dutch because the selections and advertisment for the scheme are (or used to be ?)in The Netherlands.
It is a very expensive deal for the "cadets", as they have to pay a lot of money, but it gets them to nice aircrafts, on good salaries. A lot of those dutch cadets have joined Easyjet like that, because Easyjet works quiet a lot with CTC.
CTC would probably be very keen at the moment to find a job for those "cadets" because of the T & C of the £60 K loan. Apparently, they don't have to pay until they have a jet position for 6 months. Therefore, CTC would try to get a job for those guys at all costs... If you know what I mean.
I got all this information from one of those dutch guys... I haven't checked the contract myself so I can't garanty the truth about all that. All I know for sure, when I did my training, there were a few dutch people on the £60 K deal, and they are all flying now with major british airlines.
If I am wrong, please let me know. I have nothing against anybody and I wish good luck to those who got the job. But all that is not very good for experienced pilots who are trying to get a job with a good airline, as all the (good) jobs are taken by low experience people.
I heard that Monarch would take some of those CTC cadets as well
Happy landings
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
From: Right Here.
Adios Britts. Good luck to all those selected. I could never begrudge anyone a job in these trying times. At least I got a months salary out the company You wont be seeing me right hand seat. Holdpool 30-1=29.
MAX
You wont be seeing me right hand seat. Holdpool 30-1=29.MAX
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: UK
I myself was meant to start with britannia last November. I didn't want to wait. I took out another loan for 6K and went to CTC. I now fly for Easyjet.
Fine, a lot of people may have many more hours than myself and I know how hard it is to find a job! But I think it is wrong to state that, we are cheap labour until you know all of the facts! Yes, I did have to pay 6k initially, but I got half of that back when I was placed with EZY. I know I am on a small wage for six months but this is because, I am theoretically paying back my type rating bond. After my six month initial period, I will not be bonded. If you still think that we are cheap labour, how much did you earn for your first job? Or how much would have been prepared to accept? If you were dedicated in achieving your goal, probably nothing.
On another note, spoke to HR. They are taking people from CTC but only for a temp contract. Apparently they will not be extended. If any of you guys can get the money together to go to CTC, it is worth it. They are more likely in getting you a job than you can ever be. The selection process is free so it's worth doing. Tel: 02380 844 000 speak to Jo Ward.
Fine, a lot of people may have many more hours than myself and I know how hard it is to find a job! But I think it is wrong to state that, we are cheap labour until you know all of the facts! Yes, I did have to pay 6k initially, but I got half of that back when I was placed with EZY. I know I am on a small wage for six months but this is because, I am theoretically paying back my type rating bond. After my six month initial period, I will not be bonded. If you still think that we are cheap labour, how much did you earn for your first job? Or how much would have been prepared to accept? If you were dedicated in achieving your goal, probably nothing.
On another note, spoke to HR. They are taking people from CTC but only for a temp contract. Apparently they will not be extended. If any of you guys can get the money together to go to CTC, it is worth it. They are more likely in getting you a job than you can ever be. The selection process is free so it's worth doing. Tel: 02380 844 000 speak to Jo Ward.