Is an IMC really needed?
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Is an IMC really needed?
Hello again!
I was wandering, do you think it is advisable to do an IMC rating when training towards a career as an airline pilot?
Some people say that it is just getting yourself into greater debt when in the end you are going to do an instrument rating anyway!
Do you think it is advisable for a wannabee like myself to do an IMC after my PPL?
All help appreciated!
I was wandering, do you think it is advisable to do an IMC rating when training towards a career as an airline pilot?
Some people say that it is just getting yourself into greater debt when in the end you are going to do an instrument rating anyway!
Do you think it is advisable for a wannabee like myself to do an IMC after my PPL?
All help appreciated!
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I'm so glad that I did mine. Not only did it give me a better insight on using the ADF and VOR's etc but you get to do holds and even ILS approaches.
This has helped considerably so far in two areas post IMC:
1. The ATPL exams (esp' Radio Nav and Instruments) you'll understand it better if you have an IMC.
2. The commercial involves 10 hrs of instrument flying, which you will be better prepared to cope with after an IMC.
Believe you me if you are slowed down on an already demanding course such as the CPL because you cant do an NDB approach or partial panel flying, you'll be kicking yourself for not having done the IMC.
Good luck with whatever way you decide to go!
This has helped considerably so far in two areas post IMC:
1. The ATPL exams (esp' Radio Nav and Instruments) you'll understand it better if you have an IMC.
2. The commercial involves 10 hrs of instrument flying, which you will be better prepared to cope with after an IMC.
Believe you me if you are slowed down on an already demanding course such as the CPL because you cant do an NDB approach or partial panel flying, you'll be kicking yourself for not having done the IMC.
Good luck with whatever way you decide to go!
Let me put it this way. I was training a pilot in a 4-jet recently when we heard a light ac pilot declare that he'd had to climb above cloud, but had no 'IMC qualification'. He needed to get down soon as the weather was closing in... I advised ATC to concentrate on giving him steady headings and not to combine changes in heading and height. He was talked down to VMC below, but couldn't see the aerodrome. Meanwhile I broke off my approach and re-positioned well away to the west until the pilot had the aerodrome in sight. He made a safe landing and while my trainee co-piglet flew the ILS approach I called the tower and got them to arrange for someone from the station flying club to go out and look after the pilot. After we landed I met him in Operations - I found that he was a CPL trainee on a modular course. He'd set off with a legal VFR forecast, but the weather ahead of him had deteriorated. He'd flown his 180 deg IMC avoidance turn - but found that the weather behind had also closed in. So he thought that the safer option was to climb up above cloud and to ask for help........ He told me that the first thing he was going to do when he got back was to enrol on an IMC rating course!
You can never trust the UK weather - so the IMC Rating is, in my opinion, a useful safety insurance. But it is NOT designed to give pilots sufficient training to equip them to fly for protracted periods in 'real' IMC!!
You can never trust the UK weather - so the IMC Rating is, in my opinion, a useful safety insurance. But it is NOT designed to give pilots sufficient training to equip them to fly for protracted periods in 'real' IMC!!
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I wouldn't bother with an IMC per se. The instrument experience is great, but if you are going almost straight to an IR the IMC rating itself is of no use. You will waste money on the preparation or the test. Perhaps use the money to get the instrument training you need for emergencies and lead in to IR. I went into the IR course with unusually high instrument experience (about 45 hours) and it was a breeze, certainly easier than the CPL.
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I intend doing an IMC once I have the exams out the way.
1.It will tidy my flying up and get me back up to speed before the CPL.
2 Anything that lightens the load once into the CPL can`t be bad.
1.It will tidy my flying up and get me back up to speed before the CPL.
2 Anything that lightens the load once into the CPL can`t be bad.
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Skunk works
The IMC rating is a UK-only rating, with limits to usefulness. As intimated it is a useful device for flying in marginal VMC that may deteriorate or for getting airborne to find VMC in typical British changeable weather. It is not an IR, not intended for flight through solid IMC or whole flights under IFR.
The IMC rating is a UK-only rating, with limits to usefulness. As intimated it is a useful device for flying in marginal VMC that may deteriorate or for getting airborne to find VMC in typical British changeable weather. It is not an IR, not intended for flight through solid IMC or whole flights under IFR.
The IMC Rating should be something which anyone intent on 'hours building' in the UK for a modular CPL ought to consider. The temptation to press on towards that elusive hours goal in marginal weather becomes far less hazardous when you have the added safety insurance of an IMC Rating. For that reason alone, I never charge anything when I conduct IMC Rating initial Skill Tests, revalidations or renewals. I would far sooner someone spent their money on becoming a safer pilot and the idea behind this policy is to offer them some practical encouragement.
I think it is worth it.
If nothing else once you have it you can use it during your hour building. Go find some benign IMC and practice your scan. Go shoot a few approaches or sit and perfect a decent hold over some beacon or other.
Your IMC instructor will be able to give you some excellent sortie profiles for you to go and practice. This will help enormously once you come to your IR training.
I was teaching people in Jerez for their IR at an hourly rate of about £60. Just prior I could have taught a lot of the basic stuff for £10 at a small school...
The IMC is an excellent safety aid as BEagle pointed out. You are in far more peril scud running and running out of ideas than you are climbing to MSA and getting yourself a radar service.
One hears all manner of stories about people who used their IMC and IF hours to knock down the costs of their IR and CPL. I am unsure of the current position with CAA FCL. Its worth a good long look though.
With sound judgement the IMC rating can directly contribute to a min hours IR first time pass. Something you should all aspire to.
WWW
If nothing else once you have it you can use it during your hour building. Go find some benign IMC and practice your scan. Go shoot a few approaches or sit and perfect a decent hold over some beacon or other.
Your IMC instructor will be able to give you some excellent sortie profiles for you to go and practice. This will help enormously once you come to your IR training.
I was teaching people in Jerez for their IR at an hourly rate of about £60. Just prior I could have taught a lot of the basic stuff for £10 at a small school...
The IMC is an excellent safety aid as BEagle pointed out. You are in far more peril scud running and running out of ideas than you are climbing to MSA and getting yourself a radar service.
One hears all manner of stories about people who used their IMC and IF hours to knock down the costs of their IR and CPL. I am unsure of the current position with CAA FCL. Its worth a good long look though.
With sound judgement the IMC rating can directly contribute to a min hours IR first time pass. Something you should all aspire to.
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BFS,
Get yourself some IMC training, no doubt one day you will be thankful you did when the weather closes in unexpectedly.
If you have 2-3 weeks on your hands the other option is to go to the US and take the FAA Instrument Rating, it works out £2500-3000 compared to doing an IR in the UK and the best bit if on your return you are eligible to add an IMC rating to your UK licence for the usual £64 fee of course. Of course if you hire an N reg plane in the UK you can fly on full IR privledges.
The course is 40 hours long and tough but you will gain a whole lot more experience than the 15 hours for approx the same price. Obviously you will have flights and hotel/living expenses, I paid £200 for a flight off the net, accomodation was £25 for a room that had two beds in so if you go with a mate you can share the costs on that, food/beer was about £15-20 a day depending on how mad you go!
If you do go this route though make sure you get he writtens exams out of the way in the UK as you will be able to concentrate on the flying a bit and will you the oppurtunity for the odd day off sightseeing. There is also an oral part to the exam which weeds out the 'parrot fashion' learners from those who actually understand what they are doing.
Either way do something and get the experience. Personally I love flying IFR to VFR, much more interesting and good fun and you get a buzz coming down the ILS to look up and see the rwy straight out in front of you where before there was just clouds....
Julian.
Get yourself some IMC training, no doubt one day you will be thankful you did when the weather closes in unexpectedly.
If you have 2-3 weeks on your hands the other option is to go to the US and take the FAA Instrument Rating, it works out £2500-3000 compared to doing an IR in the UK and the best bit if on your return you are eligible to add an IMC rating to your UK licence for the usual £64 fee of course. Of course if you hire an N reg plane in the UK you can fly on full IR privledges.
The course is 40 hours long and tough but you will gain a whole lot more experience than the 15 hours for approx the same price. Obviously you will have flights and hotel/living expenses, I paid £200 for a flight off the net, accomodation was £25 for a room that had two beds in so if you go with a mate you can share the costs on that, food/beer was about £15-20 a day depending on how mad you go!
If you do go this route though make sure you get he writtens exams out of the way in the UK as you will be able to concentrate on the flying a bit and will you the oppurtunity for the odd day off sightseeing. There is also an oral part to the exam which weeds out the 'parrot fashion' learners from those who actually understand what they are doing.
Either way do something and get the experience. Personally I love flying IFR to VFR, much more interesting and good fun and you get a buzz coming down the ILS to look up and see the rwy straight out in front of you where before there was just clouds....
Julian.
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Julian,
Have I got this straight-
Go to USA and get an FAA IR, then nothing is required except a fee of £64 on return to the UK to gain an IMC rating?
Do you not need to have an FAA pilot's licence as well for the FAA IR rating to be valid on N-reg a/c?
Is it possible to do the same in Canada?
Thanks for your help,
Tri
Have I got this straight-
Go to USA and get an FAA IR, then nothing is required except a fee of £64 on return to the UK to gain an IMC rating?
Do you not need to have an FAA pilot's licence as well for the FAA IR rating to be valid on N-reg a/c?
Is it possible to do the same in Canada?
Thanks for your help,
Tri
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As far as I can see the IMC Rating is to the IR like the PPL is to the CPL ie it covers the same ground but the expected standard is a little lower.
Contrary to what has been said here- and I've heard the same thing elsewhere - the IMC Rating does allow you to set off and fly all day in IMC perfectly safely. It is not a get-you-out-of trouble. That is part of the CPL training. You should be able to enter and maintain IMC and carry out a let-down under the help and guidance of ATC.
I believe you can get one very cheaply in Florida and it used to mean you had to do less hours on the IR although that may well have changed with the advent of JAR.
One advantage is if you pass this you should feel a lot more confident about the IR which is perhaps the most stressfull test on your route to the ATPL.
Contrary to what has been said here- and I've heard the same thing elsewhere - the IMC Rating does allow you to set off and fly all day in IMC perfectly safely. It is not a get-you-out-of trouble. That is part of the CPL training. You should be able to enter and maintain IMC and carry out a let-down under the help and guidance of ATC.
I believe you can get one very cheaply in Florida and it used to mean you had to do less hours on the IR although that may well have changed with the advent of JAR.
One advantage is if you pass this you should feel a lot more confident about the IR which is perhaps the most stressfull test on your route to the ATPL.
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Hi Folks,
OK. Lets correct a few misconceptions about the IMC rating & the difference between flight conditions and flight rules. Seems to be some confusion on the thread.
Whatever folks say the LAWS of the UK vest certain privileges on a pilot. Those privileges are flight in IMC conditions, and approaches (both precision/non-precision) with A/D visibility of 1800m and minima of 500'(precision) or 600' (non-precision) or OCH adjusted appropriately whichever is the higher.
There is *NO* statement it is a 'get out of jail free' rating. There is *NO* statement of the IMC ratings intentions in ANY offical CAA documentation and NEVER HAS BEEN. Re: CAP53 & now LASORS.
This 'IMC Rating should be gained but not used' is poppycock. The LAW defines your privileges and you are allowed to fly within those privileges. If the CAA did NOT mean to give pilots the privilege to conduct entire flights under IMC in accordance with their minima then they should have made the rating different and used different wording in the laws. But they havent. So unless you folks can provide documentary evidence from the CAA/UK statutes that shows A LEGAL restriction on the operations an IMC rated pilot may persue I suggest opinion is best left at the door.
Also...dont forget folks IFR & IMC are two completely different beasts...as a PPL you can fly IFR the same as ANYONE with ANY licence. What you cannot do however, is venture into conditions/airspace that require COMPLIANCE with IFR. Namely controlled airspace and IMC conditions...therefore even a 'lowly' PPL can fly IFR in VMC. Remember though, that flying as such you can only accept VFR/SVFR clearances through controlled airspace as only a pilot you can comply with IFR (and enter IMC legally) is allowed to accept an IFR clearance.
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In the old UK-CAA non-JAR days the IMC rating allowed you to take the ATPL ground exams earlier than you otherwise could - if I recall you needed soming like 150 hrs TT to take the exams but having an IMC rating meant 100hrs TT was enough - somin like that - hence the IMC rating had a lot going for it. Thus 3 months after completing my PPL I did my IMC rating and flew within the privileges bestowed on me by the laws of England. Yeah I flew 2.5 hr flights between Gloucester & Newcastle with 50% of that IMC and an ILS at newcastle...even more time was spent in IMC on the return.
If you are allowed to fly within the privileges you have been given, *and* you feel confident that your own ability/currency/limitations are compatible then fly....
As for now? Well if you are gonna take 8 months to get ATPL exams out the way then I suggest an IMC rating *even* if you are going to do an IR - it makes the IR easier - you know a lot of what to expect. Its just more of the same to a higher standard with some more bits thrown in...'commercial' thinking for a start...
Sorry about the tone but it really does annoy me that this 'myth' about the IMC rating being a 'get out of trouble' rating is continually perpetuated - you dont hear the CAA saying this.
Hope this helps,
FF
OK. Lets correct a few misconceptions about the IMC rating & the difference between flight conditions and flight rules. Seems to be some confusion on the thread.
Whatever folks say the LAWS of the UK vest certain privileges on a pilot. Those privileges are flight in IMC conditions, and approaches (both precision/non-precision) with A/D visibility of 1800m and minima of 500'(precision) or 600' (non-precision) or OCH adjusted appropriately whichever is the higher.
There is *NO* statement it is a 'get out of jail free' rating. There is *NO* statement of the IMC ratings intentions in ANY offical CAA documentation and NEVER HAS BEEN. Re: CAP53 & now LASORS.
This 'IMC Rating should be gained but not used' is poppycock. The LAW defines your privileges and you are allowed to fly within those privileges. If the CAA did NOT mean to give pilots the privilege to conduct entire flights under IMC in accordance with their minima then they should have made the rating different and used different wording in the laws. But they havent. So unless you folks can provide documentary evidence from the CAA/UK statutes that shows A LEGAL restriction on the operations an IMC rated pilot may persue I suggest opinion is best left at the door.
Also...dont forget folks IFR & IMC are two completely different beasts...as a PPL you can fly IFR the same as ANYONE with ANY licence. What you cannot do however, is venture into conditions/airspace that require COMPLIANCE with IFR. Namely controlled airspace and IMC conditions...therefore even a 'lowly' PPL can fly IFR in VMC. Remember though, that flying as such you can only accept VFR/SVFR clearances through controlled airspace as only a pilot you can comply with IFR (and enter IMC legally) is allowed to accept an IFR clearance.
-----------
In the old UK-CAA non-JAR days the IMC rating allowed you to take the ATPL ground exams earlier than you otherwise could - if I recall you needed soming like 150 hrs TT to take the exams but having an IMC rating meant 100hrs TT was enough - somin like that - hence the IMC rating had a lot going for it. Thus 3 months after completing my PPL I did my IMC rating and flew within the privileges bestowed on me by the laws of England. Yeah I flew 2.5 hr flights between Gloucester & Newcastle with 50% of that IMC and an ILS at newcastle...even more time was spent in IMC on the return.
If you are allowed to fly within the privileges you have been given, *and* you feel confident that your own ability/currency/limitations are compatible then fly....
As for now? Well if you are gonna take 8 months to get ATPL exams out the way then I suggest an IMC rating *even* if you are going to do an IR - it makes the IR easier - you know a lot of what to expect. Its just more of the same to a higher standard with some more bits thrown in...'commercial' thinking for a start...
Sorry about the tone but it really does annoy me that this 'myth' about the IMC rating being a 'get out of trouble' rating is continually perpetuated - you dont hear the CAA saying this.
Hope this helps,
FF
Last edited by FormationFlyer; 2nd Jun 2002 at 22:46.
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Absolutely agree with FFs statement on the legal (and practical) position of the IMC rating. It is not a "get out of trouble rating" for the simple reason that instrument flight skills fade very rapidly with lack of practice. If you need it, then you have to be in practice and that means using the rating. ie flying in IMC.
This "the IMC rating is not for using in IMC" business seems to have started about four years ago with the publication of the CAA General Aviation Safety Sense Leaflet No 23. These safety sense leaflets are generally very good, but I believe they were written by one person and in this particular one I believe he got this particular point wrong. I think this is a pity because there is a lot of very sensible advise in the rest of the leaflet.
I could expand on this considerably, but briefly, having the rating ensures legality but it is being proficient and in current practice that maximises safety.
This "the IMC rating is not for using in IMC" business seems to have started about four years ago with the publication of the CAA General Aviation Safety Sense Leaflet No 23. These safety sense leaflets are generally very good, but I believe they were written by one person and in this particular one I believe he got this particular point wrong. I think this is a pity because there is a lot of very sensible advise in the rest of the leaflet.
I could expand on this considerably, but briefly, having the rating ensures legality but it is being proficient and in current practice that maximises safety.
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I agree with Julian, go to the Staes and do the FAA IR. All you need to do to get an FAA PPL is turn up to the FSDO with your JAA PPL and they'll give you a restricted FAA PPL for nothing. And least you know that when you come to do JAA IR, you've got 40 hours instrument time and you know you can pass an IR flight test.
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So let me get this straight, if you hold an IMC rating, your minimums are 500'(precision) or 600' (non-precision) as opposed to the minima specified on the approach plate?
Cheers
EA
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EA
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I think an IMC is well worth it
1. You've got to build hours so you may as well do it constructivley
2. It does wonders for your flying
3. It allows you to hour build even when the weather isn't great
4. You can practice IMC/R.NAV during hour building ready for CPL/IR
5. It helps with the ATPL's
6. Holding an IMC can count towards certain amount of your IR training
7. It can get you out of sticky situations.
Mine cost me £1500 in the UK, I have seen them advertised for £1300. Not bad for 16.5 hrs training.
As for the minima on appraoches, my understanding is the minima for an IMC rated pilot is the higher of; the proceedure value and the pilots licence priviliges (plus any personal minima).
1. You've got to build hours so you may as well do it constructivley
2. It does wonders for your flying
3. It allows you to hour build even when the weather isn't great
4. You can practice IMC/R.NAV during hour building ready for CPL/IR
5. It helps with the ATPL's
6. Holding an IMC can count towards certain amount of your IR training
7. It can get you out of sticky situations.
Mine cost me £1500 in the UK, I have seen them advertised for £1300. Not bad for 16.5 hrs training.
As for the minima on appraoches, my understanding is the minima for an IMC rated pilot is the higher of; the proceedure value and the pilots licence priviliges (plus any personal minima).
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Whilst the sentiment that the IMC is not a get you out of jail card is correct, lets all be realistic. PPl's with potentially as low as 70 hrs whizzing round in the clagg is not a good idea.
Single pilot IFR/IMC at an inexperienced level in a light single having just passed an IMC initial is not a good idea. The workload will be significantly higher than the chap has ever experienced before. There will be no instructor/Examiner to ask all those questions to & IMC initials tend to be peroquial affairs not nominally venturing further than 25-30 miles from the field of departure.
My students get a x-cntry IFR clear of controlled airspace with the intercom turned off wherever prudent to a strange approach at a different airfield.
Their willingness to launch of into IMC changes after that trip beleive me, I do however encourage them to do the same trip shortly afterwards with another more experienced IMC'er after a ground breifing before they go.
Lets all be sensible about this
PS An IMC rating can be very handy if and when you wish to do some instructing
Single pilot IFR/IMC at an inexperienced level in a light single having just passed an IMC initial is not a good idea. The workload will be significantly higher than the chap has ever experienced before. There will be no instructor/Examiner to ask all those questions to & IMC initials tend to be peroquial affairs not nominally venturing further than 25-30 miles from the field of departure.
My students get a x-cntry IFR clear of controlled airspace with the intercom turned off wherever prudent to a strange approach at a different airfield.
Their willingness to launch of into IMC changes after that trip beleive me, I do however encourage them to do the same trip shortly afterwards with another more experienced IMC'er after a ground breifing before they go.
Lets all be sensible about this
PS An IMC rating can be very handy if and when you wish to do some instructing
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I'm glad FormationFlyer wrote what he did, because he said it far more elegantly than I would have.
The "myth" of the IMC rating being "only" a get-out-of-trouble rating was begun by an ex-military brass hat who should have known better. Unfortunately, his diatribe has been picked up by a variety of "initiates" who disapprove of anyone less "qualified" than themselves being allowed to play in "their" clouds.
It's not the IMC rating that's wrong when folks get into trouble in IMC. It's lack of practice.
I did an IMC rating, many years ago, and used it "in anger" many times. More recently, I "upgraded" to an FAA IR (the JAA IR being unreachable by a PPL these days). The IMC rating plus experience stood me in excellent stead for that, and reduced the hours needed for the IR by about 75%. Yes, the IR is still more difficult, but I wouldn't say I was unsafe in IMC before.
So, to anyone between PPL and CPL, I would say "go for the IMC" - it will improve the accuracy of your flying, and it might save your life.
But don't venture into known icing unless your aircraft is equipped for it. There isn't usually a lot of known icing in Southern England in summer below 10,000 feet, so enjoy!
The "myth" of the IMC rating being "only" a get-out-of-trouble rating was begun by an ex-military brass hat who should have known better. Unfortunately, his diatribe has been picked up by a variety of "initiates" who disapprove of anyone less "qualified" than themselves being allowed to play in "their" clouds.
It's not the IMC rating that's wrong when folks get into trouble in IMC. It's lack of practice.
I did an IMC rating, many years ago, and used it "in anger" many times. More recently, I "upgraded" to an FAA IR (the JAA IR being unreachable by a PPL these days). The IMC rating plus experience stood me in excellent stead for that, and reduced the hours needed for the IR by about 75%. Yes, the IR is still more difficult, but I wouldn't say I was unsafe in IMC before.
So, to anyone between PPL and CPL, I would say "go for the IMC" - it will improve the accuracy of your flying, and it might save your life.
But don't venture into known icing unless your aircraft is equipped for it. There isn't usually a lot of known icing in Southern England in summer below 10,000 feet, so enjoy!