Hourly dual rates
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Hourly dual rates
I was umming and ahhing about doing a JAA CPL as opposed to the FAA CPL, so I picked up a leaflet from my club and was shocked to find the following dual hourly rates (all based on Warrior):-
Solo: £100
Dual: £130
Dual PPL training: £130
Dual IMC training: £145
Dual CPL training: £160
Alright, fair enough coughing up 30 quid an hour for instruction, but £60 / hr ??
Dual is dual as far as I was concerned, at least it is in the states where you pay around $35/hr tuition for check-outs, PPL training, CPL training, Instrument, Multi etc etc...
I assume the costs (and a bit of profit) are covered in the £100 / hr rental rate of the plane, and you instructors don't make 60 quid an hour (...as was pointed out in another thread) and the club owners are barely breaking even (...as was also pointed out in this thread), then it seems the money fairy is flying away with this extra dosh !
Seriously though, is this dual-difference common around the UK ?
Cheers
Solo: £100
Dual: £130
Dual PPL training: £130
Dual IMC training: £145
Dual CPL training: £160
Alright, fair enough coughing up 30 quid an hour for instruction, but £60 / hr ??
Dual is dual as far as I was concerned, at least it is in the states where you pay around $35/hr tuition for check-outs, PPL training, CPL training, Instrument, Multi etc etc...
I assume the costs (and a bit of profit) are covered in the £100 / hr rental rate of the plane, and you instructors don't make 60 quid an hour (...as was pointed out in another thread) and the club owners are barely breaking even (...as was also pointed out in this thread), then it seems the money fairy is flying away with this extra dosh !
Seriously though, is this dual-difference common around the UK ?
Cheers
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It's not just in the UK that there is a difference in instructor rates. Anyway, surely you don't object to renumerating fairly the instructor who has undergone advanced instruction himself to allow him to teach you instrument or mult-engine skills? IR and ME courses are not cheap and I think instructors are entitled to charge for their level of skill, expertise and knowledge. After all, nobody complains when a surgeon gets paid more than a GP.
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I'm not complaining if the instructors get the money, but as was pointed out on another thread, instructors can get paid as low as £8 per hour(or less). If they got £60 per hour, I'm sure they would be very happy!
Incidentally, this was for SE and and IMC...it seems you only need IMC to teach IMC.
Incidentally, this was for SE and and IMC...it seems you only need IMC to teach IMC.
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Don't know who's rates these are, but the CPL rate is about right. The PPL rate of £30 over wet hire is a bit on the high side.
Commercial instructors can get about £45 per hour... so whats the problem? CPL training requires highly experienced instructors and the should be paid accordingly.
I don't think that £15 to the FTO for CPL training is a bad deal, however £20 to the school for PPL instuction is just a bit unfair on basic FI's who only get £10 per hr!
Commercial instructors can get about £45 per hour... so whats the problem? CPL training requires highly experienced instructors and the should be paid accordingly.
I don't think that £15 to the FTO for CPL training is a bad deal, however £20 to the school for PPL instuction is just a bit unfair on basic FI's who only get £10 per hr!
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The cost of employment is about 20% more than the salary. 600 hours commercial instruction a year in UK weather is working reasonably hard. £60/hour charge would equate to £30K per annum for the instructor and NOTHING for the FTO! Now if you'd like to be taught by someone who is capable of earning only £12K a year, by all means go to the USA. Your instructor will be someone who has just completed his or her own training, delivered by someone who has just.....
Now maybe people will understand why the airlines choose to employ people who have trained at an FTO who employ professional commercial instructors. You can have the cheapest training or the best, but not both.
Now maybe people will understand why the airlines choose to employ people who have trained at an FTO who employ professional commercial instructors. You can have the cheapest training or the best, but not both.
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Fibod - disagree mate, think you are using a one-brush-for-all attitude.
The quality of the instructors over in the US on the JAA courses was top notch and if they didnt make the grade they were booted - yes we witnessed it!!
My instructor was P/T with over 10000 hours, the only course he didnt teach was jets and the DEA use him on Agent runs - so he couldnt be that bad
And the crunch - he was flat rate for his instruction no matter what course you did with him. I instruct (not flying before you ask) and whatever course I am involved in is a set hourly rate for the course - the rest goes on 'course material' but I dont see any of it.
If, PPL say, is £30/Hr and the FI is getting £10 of that - the club is taking £20, if the rate for CPL is £60/Hr and the FI is getiing, say £15/hr - the club is now taking £45. Why does the club take a proportional increase to the FIs? The maths do not add up, which I think is Englishals point.
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Live fast..die young...leave a good looking corpse!
The quality of the instructors over in the US on the JAA courses was top notch and if they didnt make the grade they were booted - yes we witnessed it!!
My instructor was P/T with over 10000 hours, the only course he didnt teach was jets and the DEA use him on Agent runs - so he couldnt be that bad
And the crunch - he was flat rate for his instruction no matter what course you did with him. I instruct (not flying before you ask) and whatever course I am involved in is a set hourly rate for the course - the rest goes on 'course material' but I dont see any of it.
If, PPL say, is £30/Hr and the FI is getting £10 of that - the club is taking £20, if the rate for CPL is £60/Hr and the FI is getiing, say £15/hr - the club is now taking £45. Why does the club take a proportional increase to the FIs? The maths do not add up, which I think is Englishals point.
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Live fast..die young...leave a good looking corpse!
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I could agree more that instruction is good in the US.
I unfortunatly ended up training with the biggest arsehole on the east coast of florida. But even then the instructors were pretty good. All Riddle chaps or european ATPL, getting payed 6$ an hour.
The other plus is the weather and the amount of landings you can do. X-countries with 5-6 different airports visited. In the UK that would cost you more in landing fees than machine rental.
And how many UK students get to shoot an ILS approach into an international airport? Or go visit a lap dancing bar on the west coast as part of there night rating?
And you don't get any real problems when you get back apart from people who are pissed off because you did a PPL in 3 weeks instead of a year. All of the major schools in the UK send there students out there as well to do up untill MEP so it can't be that bad.
MJ
[This message has been edited by mad_jock (edited 08 June 2001).]
I unfortunatly ended up training with the biggest arsehole on the east coast of florida. But even then the instructors were pretty good. All Riddle chaps or european ATPL, getting payed 6$ an hour.
The other plus is the weather and the amount of landings you can do. X-countries with 5-6 different airports visited. In the UK that would cost you more in landing fees than machine rental.
And how many UK students get to shoot an ILS approach into an international airport? Or go visit a lap dancing bar on the west coast as part of there night rating?
And you don't get any real problems when you get back apart from people who are pissed off because you did a PPL in 3 weeks instead of a year. All of the major schools in the UK send there students out there as well to do up untill MEP so it can't be that bad.
MJ
[This message has been edited by mad_jock (edited 08 June 2001).]
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Madjock - which column do you fill in the lap dancers in your logbook?
I agree you have to watch where you go, but there agin a mate of mine in the UK went to four different clubs before he found one he liked. The instructors I trained with were getting $15/Hr, the school charging them out at $30.
Julian.
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Live fast..die young...leave a good looking corpse!
I agree you have to watch where you go, but there agin a mate of mine in the UK went to four different clubs before he found one he liked. The instructors I trained with were getting $15/Hr, the school charging them out at $30.
Julian.
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Live fast..die young...leave a good looking corpse!
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As a PPL instructor I got £10 per hr plus £10 per day for pitching up. As a Commerical insructor my Gross salary divided by annual flyig hours worked out at £65 per hr. Plus benefits.
That market rate is on and will continue to be on an upward trend.
WWW
That market rate is on and will continue to be on an upward trend.
WWW
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Ok, so what extra training does one need to teach CPL rather than PPL? Can a SEL CPL FI teach someone to the same level? I can understand different rates for say Instrument rating training or Multi, as it has cost the instructor shed loads more to get these ratings, but if I wanted to train for CPL, SEL and IMC ...then a CPL FI with IMC can teach me, can they not??....the same qualifications nescessary to teach for the PPL (if you discount 'free' PPL instructors...)
Cheers...
Cheers...
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Unless you know the costing structure of the school, it is a bit hasty to come to conclusions.
Firstly, it may in fact be that the profit margin for private hire is greater than that for training. Secondly, as already mentioned, it costs a lot more to hire an instructor than just what they take home.
If you are interested in how the costings are set up, why not ask the mangement of the school? You may be surprised at the variables you didn't know about.
Firstly, it may in fact be that the profit margin for private hire is greater than that for training. Secondly, as already mentioned, it costs a lot more to hire an instructor than just what they take home.
If you are interested in how the costings are set up, why not ask the mangement of the school? You may be surprised at the variables you didn't know about.
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Englishal - the pre-requisites to be able to teach for the CPL are to be an unrestricted FI with at least 500 hours total to include 200 hours instruction. You then have to take the CPL modular instructor test with a Staff FE or undertake the internal standardisation course within the FTO where you work.
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on a differant note...somthing that totally pissed me off in the us...(I dont know about the uk)is that the hourly rate was charged on hobbs time...this means as soon as you switch the master on the time starts accounting...what a rip off...is this standard practice in the uk???when I did my Ir at multiflight in leeds they charged T/O to landing plus 10 mins which was very fair as we once sat on the ground for 40 mins waiting for clearance..and when your IR training you spend 15 mins twiddling the knobs ,,,before you even get going.
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Yes they did charge on Hobbs time but I didn't mind paying it as the rates were so much cheaper!! I didn't find hold ups a problem apart from the odd occasion so it didnt really make any differnce anyway.
Julian.
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Live fast..die young...leave a good looking corpse!
I didn't find hold ups a problem apart from the odd occasion so it didnt really make any differnce anyway.Julian.
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Live fast..die young...leave a good looking corpse!
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Madjock - which column do you fill in the lap dancers in your logbook?
I agree you have to watch where you go, but there agin a mate of mine in the UK went to four different clubs before he found one he liked.
</font>
I agree you have to watch where you go, but there agin a mate of mine in the UK went to four different clubs before he found one he liked.
</font>
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">on a differant note...somthing that totally pissed me off in the us...(I dont know about the uk)is that the hourly rate was charged on hobbs time...this means as soon as you switch the master on the time starts accounting...what a rip off...is this standard practice in the uk???when I did my Ir at multiflight in leeds they charged T/O to landing plus 10 mins which was very fair as we once sat on the ground for 40 mins waiting for clearance..and when your IR training you spend 15 mins twiddling the knobs ,,,before you even get going.</font>
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Hobbs time is an FAA requirement - which does have the effect of making US hours look cheaper than UK hours. In the UK, the 'correct' way of logging is chock to chock (ANO article 129). The CAA wear schools using a notional chock to chock, as long as it doesn't exceed actual. Schools vary what they use - I've come across +10 min, +15 min, +.1, and +.15.
I still maintain that the average professional instructor in the UK (ie someone who is likely to be working at a commercial school rather than a flying club) is in a different league in terms of experience and training to the average FAA instructor doing a similar job. That's based on my experience of working in both countries.
You pay's your money and you takes your choice.
[This message has been edited by fibod (edited 14 June 2001).]
I still maintain that the average professional instructor in the UK (ie someone who is likely to be working at a commercial school rather than a flying club) is in a different league in terms of experience and training to the average FAA instructor doing a similar job. That's based on my experience of working in both countries.
You pay's your money and you takes your choice.
[This message has been edited by fibod (edited 14 June 2001).]