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Commercial Airlines straight away or bush flying

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Commercial Airlines straight away or bush flying

Old 28th Aug 2014, 13:31
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Question Commercial Airlines straight away or bush flying

Hello All,

The time has come to start my training to become a pilot. Now what I'm stuck on is two things:

Flight Training School
Commercial Airlines straight away or bush flying?

Now I understand the costs and thanks to me and my parents saving I've acquired money to start flight training. Now I'm wondering do I just get a CPL or ATPL and fly for a smaller company and trying my look at finding a job doing some bush flying in Africa? Asia? or Northern America?

Or do I try and get onto a programme where I might get a job flying Jets?

I'd like to know your opinions and what you think are good flight schools? I know about CTC, oxford etc...

Thanks
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Old 28th Aug 2014, 16:29
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First thing is to do some research on these forums as I think yo'll find your answer.

For free you don't just get an ATPL you have to have at least 1500+ hours experience. Most UK students will by one way or another get a CPL/IR with ATPL theory knowledge - often referred as a Frozen ATPL.

Flying overseas you shall need to think about work permits etc. Have you been watching C4 "Worst place to be a pilot"?

Over to you to get searching.
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Old 28th Aug 2014, 18:31
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What passports do you hold? They will determine where you can work. Next, you appear to be either badly informed or a hopeless optimist. The reason I say that is that if you expect to go bush flying with a CTC education and little else under your belt you will not even be laughed at. If you want to go bush flying, learn to fly in the bush. As for airline flying, your pile of cash should be about 200,000 tall. But given that amount of cash, I'd spend it learning to be a medic. Flying is a mug's game at the moment.
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Old 28th Aug 2014, 23:24
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Hi thanks for the advice, I hold a British and Irish passport.
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Old 28th Aug 2014, 23:26
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Hello,

Thanks for answering, yes I have been watching it! I'd love to do something like that! Is that possible? And what route would you take?

Thanks
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Old 29th Aug 2014, 01:21
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If you're fresh out of school with 200 hours (and you don't have an extra £50,000 to whore yourself on a P2F scheme) then you don't get to "choose" whether to go bush flying or airline flying.

You apply to everyone and everything and, if you're lucky enough to get something, anything, that puts hours in the logbook, then you grab hold of it like a starfish to a rock and count yourself very lucky.
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Old 29th Aug 2014, 06:59
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Have you been watching C4 "Worst place to be a pilot"?
Hmmmm. What can I say except there has been a good deal of journalistic licence applied in the making of that programme. Quite a bit of it is over hyped. Well worth watching but also take some of what the narrator says with a grain of salt.
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Old 29th Aug 2014, 11:48
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Ditto with Luke's post! If you haven't already, step one is get yourself to CAA Medical Centre at LGW for an initial Class One medical.

Next, start your research on which school you feel most comfortable giving your money to! Forget Bush/Airlines/Glossy pilot TV crap and jets, you've a loooooooong way to go and at the bottom of a huge ladder...

I would seriously recommend as part of your research, how likely the possibility of ever working as a pilot is and at what cost and then if you're still comfortable with this choice of career!
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Old 29th Aug 2014, 12:44
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Originally Posted by SheepPilot
Hello All,

The time has come to start my training to become a pilot. Now what I'm stuck on is two things:

Flight Training School
Commercial Airlines straight away or bush flying?

Now I understand the costs and thanks to me and my parents saving I've acquired money to start flight training. Now I'm wondering do I just get a CPL or ATPL and fly for a smaller company and trying my look at finding a job doing some bush flying in Africa? Asia? or Northern America?

Or do I try and get onto a programme where I might get a job flying Jets?

I'd like to know your opinions and what you think are good flight schools? I know about CTC, oxford etc...

Thanks
Forget about Northern America if you don't hold a Green Card or are not a Canadian or American citizen, that's just not gonna happen.

As I have understood, you yet have to start flying, so what I would suggest is that you apply to the various MPL programs around - the likes of British Airways Future Pilot, Etihad, Qatar Airways and so on.

In Europe you get a "Frozen" ATPL which is nothing else than a simple CPL with ATPL exams already passed. Once you have logged 1500 TT hours and at least 500 hours on multi-crew aircraft it will become a full ATPL.

Whether you want to fly for airlines, corporate departments, executive or fractionate companies, flight instructing, aerial work or bush flying doesn't depend on CPL and ATPL.

I suggest you first try to apply to a MPL scheme or cadet scheme and then see what happens. If you get in, you almost have no worries about your future job, otherwise you will have to go though the old self-improver route, where nothing is assured.
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Old 29th Aug 2014, 22:22
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As I have understood, you yet have to start flying, so what I would suggest is that you apply to the various MPL programs around - the likes of British Airways Future Pilot, Etihad, Qatar Airways and so on........

........Whether you want to fly for airlines, corporate departments, executive or fractionate companies, flight instructing, aerial work or bush flying doesn't depend on CPL and ATPL.

I suggest you first try to apply to a MPL scheme or cadet scheme and then see what happens. If you get in, you almost have no worries about your future job, otherwise you will have to go though the old self-improver route, where nothing is assured.
RedBullGaveMeWings

Explain to us how the statements I've copied above go to together.

A MPL is just that a multi crew licence, which as the name suggest is only for a multi crew operation, and if I understand it correctly is only good in an airline environment. It's useless for pretty well anything else like corporate, flight instructing, aerial work, bush flying etc.

From some of the OP's posts it would appear he/she may not wish to go airline flying or at least do some other flying during their career.

It would seem to me the OP will need to have a "proper" licence.

As for the self improver route, where nothing is assured, well I think it's fair to say nothing is assured whatever route you go.

At least with the self improver route you don't have a massive loan around your neck and usually haven't whored yourself into a self funded type rating at an exhorbitant price.
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Old 3rd Sep 2014, 12:19
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Smile Pilot Training

I am posting on behalf of my 18 year old son who wants to become a commercial pilot. He is nearly qualified for he PPL just the test to do and a few ground exams. He is in his final year of A levels (MATHS,TECH AND ART). We have been looking at CTC and Oxford Aviation Acedemy for training. Any advice on which is the best? Also would you recomend the Degree course that runs alongside this MPL training. We are also unsure about the time frame for entrance tests (when to take them) we live in Northern Ireland and will have to travel to England for these test and also for open day tours of the flying schools. Also can I ask if you are there separate entrance tests for the cadetships? do you apply separately to the airline? Thank you
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Old 3rd Sep 2014, 15:02
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Originally Posted by 27/09
RedBullGaveMeWings

Explain to us how the statements I've copied above go to together.

A MPL is just that a multi crew licence, which as the name suggest is only for a multi crew operation, and if I understand it correctly is only good in an airline environment. It's useless for pretty well anything else like corporate, flight instructing, aerial work, bush flying etc.

From some of the OP's posts it would appear he/she may not wish to go airline flying or at least do some other flying during their career.

It would seem to me the OP will need to have a "proper" licence.

As for the self improver route, where nothing is assured, well I think it's fair to say nothing is assured whatever route you go.

At least with the self improver route you don't have a massive loan around your neck and usually haven't whored yourself into a self funded type rating at an exhorbitant price.
As far as I know, after 1500 hours, the MPL-trained pilot gets a full ATPL with no restrictions and can dedicate himself/herself to other kind of flying if he/she wants to.
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Old 3rd Sep 2014, 19:22
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ellen, I am not a student nor am I influenced in any way shape or form by any flight school.

Which school is the "best" is up to your son. Which is the better 'personal' fit is more important. Both produce a pilot with a CPL, IR, ATPL subjects completed.

Doing a degree along side a full time MPL (or whatever) is unbelievably tough. Personally, I'd ask myself what I want to do with a degree. I'd do a degree or a trade (electrician etc), gain some experience and money and then go full time - if that's still the goal. Growing up is very important + understanding what earning an income means.

If your son desperately wants to fly for an airline in the UK, then the best bet (sadly) is to do a tagged scheme. That is, the airline already has tagged the candidate. Note, there are NO guarantees what will happen between contract signing and strapping himself to an aircraft.
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Old 3rd Sep 2014, 20:55
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Ellen, persuade your son to finish his degree before anything else. A good degree speaks more for a person than any commercial licence. It also adds another dimension to you as a person. Nobody wants to know a one trick pony and somebody with a background is more employable. Only after the degree is in the bag consider the next step.

But as to who to learn to fly with, that is really six and two threes. Personally, I really dislike CTC. Over the past few years they have elbowed their way into to the market and have sold their graduates short. Finishing at CTC almost certainly means working for nothing for a while but, for lucky ones (if you call working 900 hours a year lucky) you will be working and be in a position to make your own way. Oxford has an excellent reputation earned over many years and has turned out good quality pilots.

As for exams, I'll hazard a guess they won't be an issue. A nice fat cheque book generally guarantees a pass. Regarding cadet schemes, these vary and this is where the graduates score. During the interviews, the person will be questioned and the more of the person there is to question, the greater the chance of success. MPL schemes are good if you can get on them. It's a long road but probably more useful for airline flying, especially as the graduate of the scheme has to be employed by the training organisation. You will be told during the application process whose and how many selection exams will have to be sat.

Final word of warning. The good days of aviation gave gone. I have between two and seven years left (I haven't made my mind up how long to work) and really enjoy my job. But I'm lucky. Probably because I'm working for an enlightened legacy carrier. But I know (too) many people who do not enjoy their jobs. They are being worked to the very limit of the their law, they work for despicable, rapacious outfits (non-European) and have to toe the line. They have no job protection, no union representation but are well paid and fly very big, new shiny aircraft - but hate every minute. You can't do that for your working life!

And let's not forget, the most difficult thing is to land is a paying flying job, not the aircraft itself. There are too many people with licences looking for a job who are prepared to work for nothing. Then, when you have a job, you are expected to work your backside off and do exactly as you are told. It's not a job I'll encourage my kids to do.

Sorry to be so horrible, but my view is one from the inside. I've had two/three other careers and I think I know how a job should reward you. At the moment, I don't think flying cuts the mustard. I do hope things work out for you and your son and if he decides to go flying, I hope he works for a nice mob. But get the degree done first!
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 02:41
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redbullgavemewings
As far as I know, after 1500 hours, the MPL-trained pilot gets a full ATPL with no restrictions and can dedicate himself/herself to other kind of flying if he/she wants to.
Explain to me how a MPL holder goes about getting a job other than an airline job without 1500 hours and an ATPL.

Frankly I wouldn't even consider employing an ATPL holder that had been through the MPL route for any single pilot or non airline type of operation. They wouldn't have the skill set required.

The MPL is good for one thing and one thing only, multi crew operations. Even then I have reservations.

The MPL dumbs down the professional pilot licence, and is a means to drive down conditions. It is an accountants solution to a perceived lack of pilots while at the same time reducing costs.

Last edited by 27/09; 4th Sep 2014 at 02:57.
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 17:12
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Three - I'm not so sure about MPLs. Flying airliners is pretty simple and most teenagers could pick up the flying bit with ease. On the flying side, the most awkward bit is dealing with the niff-naff and trivia. Writing legibly in small boxes is also a challenge to many. But the most difficult bit, which is certainly not covered when you knock a hole in the sky with a PA28 or something equally exotic, is where you are going to point your airliner and why. ie. it's the operation of the thing the really matters. Quite what single engine flying has to do with modern airline flying is beyond me. But the miss-match of training and functions doesn't end there. The full time zero-to-F/ATPL course doesn't really prepare you for a GA career either - it appears to be geared towards an airline career.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 08:40
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wow! thanks for the responses!


I'm current looking at MPL with Qatar and Air Arabia and CTC and Oxford...


I'm about to have my Initial 1st Class medical before I even commit to spending.


thanks for everyone's input.
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