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MEP Training - Basic Questions

Old 19th Aug 2014, 17:09
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MEP Training - Basic Questions

Hi

My son is currently undertaking his MEP training in the UK. I am aviation-ignorant!

His MEP was going well, not so much now as he approaches his exam/test.

I have three questions which are :-

1. Whilst he was advised at the start that the training would be for a minimum of 6 hours (and after 6.25 hours was told he was doing well but needed another hour's tuition) he is now looking at a minimum of 9.5 hours as his flight-school deem him to still not be ready. Is this normal (there appears to be a clear financial benefit to the organisation to expand his training indefinitely)?

2. Is it normal for an instructor to scream/shout constantly at a student at every error made in the air? I am not looking for a politically correct NO here - I do understand that it may be a justifiable technique in order to put the student under pressure.

3. Is the 7 hours theoretical instruction optional or unimportant? My son hasn't received it yet and it doesn't seem to be on the agenda.

Many thanks
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Old 19th Aug 2014, 19:32
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1. Tricky question but most decent single engine pilots manage to make the grade in about 6hrs or so. Flying an MEP really isn't that difficult.

2. No, not at all. Perhaps this technique is contributing towards the issue highlighted at question 1.

3. Sounds like a shoddy school. Yes, the ground instruction is a bit nauseating but it needs doing. Again, is the lack of 7hrs classroom work being reflected in the poor flight assessment?
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Old 19th Aug 2014, 19:47
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Evening Concerneddad

This is the link to the CAA MEP requirements Multi-engine piston rating (MEP) | Private Pilots | Personal Licences and Training clearly stating a minimum 7 hour theory & written exam at the end.

All flying courses are quoted in minimum hours but it is not uncommon depending upon student, weather and other variables to this to be exceeded, sometimes by some margin. No school should want to exceed hours significantly just for finance as it has the opposite effect on marketing how good they are.

When I did my CPL/IR many years ago I was one of only a dozen or so that completed that year in the minimum time frame. One must budget 10% minimum over run/spend.

Difficult to comment on your son & his training though it does appear a little strange. Either he is useless/dangerous or he has a poor instructor or the instructor/student relationship just isn't working. I suspect somewhere in-between lies the truth. As an ex FI I should only raise my voice or take over if a dangerous situation was getting close. You should just be calm & positive input with aim on praise for things done correctly.

Remember flying is supposed to be fun, it currently isn't and something needs sorting.

Last edited by RichardH; 19th Aug 2014 at 21:07.
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Old 19th Aug 2014, 22:05
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How did he get on with the PPL? Did he go over hours on that?

Has he done the CPL yet? How were the hours on that?

What are his intentions with the MEP? If it's to get an ME-IR then a lot of people put off the test, the requirement to start the IR portion is only to have completed the 6 hour course, a lot of people do the course, go on to the ME-IR, a lot of which is in the sim, then when they have done the IR test they do the MEP test and are much more proficient on the aircraft as they have flown it for at least 20 hours, and plenty of sim time too.

Some "old school" instructors do shout and scream. It doesn't work for everyone, but I'll admit that it worked for me as a student when I needed kicking into shape, and I'm a better pilot for it. A lot of the softly softly don't hurt your feelings stuff doesn't get results with everyone, some people do need a kick in the right direction. Having said that, you are the customer, and if the shouting method isn't getting the results perhaps it's time to try a different instructor/school.
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Old 20th Aug 2014, 01:23
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ah brings back memories of a school i went to near london, took me 44 hours to get my cpl, got really messed around , failed 170a 3 times, told in vulgar language i was sh one t . i was told in the end i could have a go at cpl skills test and that i would fail . i went up 3 day later with examiner and pass first time , and aced it . delighted with myself i said i would give the multi engine a go at that school because i phoned around and there was a waiting list at most schools to join of least 3 months back in 2008. as i sat there for multi engine briefing and the instructor said it would take at least 10 hours to get multi engine rating and it must be passed before proceeding to ir , i got up and walk out to his amazement said thank i take my business elsewhere. i joined another school 4 months later who did the me/ir as rtn1 said and i passed on the hours with first time pass.
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Old 20th Aug 2014, 06:54
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No theory......there is the problem.

Certainly mandatory and certainly not unimportant. The Groundschool is an integral part of the ME Class rating. If there is no understanding of single engine aerodynamics the student is bound to struggle, not only with the drills when one goes 'tango uniform' but with the handling after the event.

As CBG states, when all is done correctly and in the correct order a typical student should not struggle with the minimum theory and flight hours.

Each flight should be thoroughly briefed by the instructor before hand, and that is in addition to the mandated Groundschool element (as with all flights).

Shouting at students.... I think that has been demonstrated over the years to be incredibly bad instructional technique - even as a method of putting the student under pressure. There are a number of ways of doing this, but IMHO this is only done when the student has demonstrated understanding and developed a degree of comfort with the drills and handling. I do agree that TEM is an integral part of developing as a pilot, but not at the expense of the basics.

Your son is entitled to a copy of his training record - might make interesting reading!
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Old 20th Aug 2014, 07:20
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One simple question, when you were learning to drive your car when you were young did the driving instructor shout at you?? Didn't think so. It simply is NOT helpful. You can have a strict and harsh instructor who is critical of your mistakes but to be shouting at someone shows a lack in their own ability to teach.
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Old 20th Aug 2014, 09:20
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Sounds like he is at a school that milks its students suggest he gets another one PDQ.

Is the school in Humberside?
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Old 20th Aug 2014, 12:33
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Thanks

Hi

What a lot of extremely helpful and speedy answers. To answer RTN11's questions he did his PPL in 47 hours - which I believe is fine - and he hasn't done his CPL yet.

I am very grateful for your responses

Thanks
(but not in Humberside)
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Old 20th Aug 2014, 14:01
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7 hours theory WTF

What exactly takes 7 hours of theory to teach as part of a ME endorsement. I presume the preflight briefings are part of the 7 hours. The briefings would take up no more than 3 hours.

Having done many ME endorsements I can't see how you would ever need to spend 7 hours in the classroom.

Another case of making simple things complicated?
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Old 20th Aug 2014, 17:33
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There are plenty of clowns who call themselves instructors. You can recognise them by their shouting. When they shout, you should stop the lesson and that means you don't pay from that point on. When on the ground, you explain to them in simple ways what you don't like about their instructional technique. I find holding their lapel with my left hand often gets my message across.

We should also differentiate between strict and high standards. I was taught many years ago at Bristol (Martin Barnes's lot). They had, and still probably do have very high standards, but they didn't shout. Strict implies no compromise, which is unrealistic if you apply it to people. High suggests that you will be helped and taught to be as good as you possibly can be.

As for quoted hours, it all depends. A minimum is just that and overshoots regularly occur, even for qualified pilots under going type rating courses. We all learn at different rates and every now and again we find a section that is very challenging. And if I think back, I remember I wasn't happy in twin until I had about five hours on type. Then all I had to do was learn to fly the thing on one engine, which does appear to be a bit of a waste of an engine. We must also remember that piston twin is probably the most complicated thing you'll ever learn to fly.

Regarding the screaming and shouting, it is just not on. There is also no benefit in putting anybody under pressure by shouting. That is not part of instruction. Choosing an inopportune moment for a failure is a reasonable thing to do, but then only towards the back end of the course. And that is after the pupil has been prepared for the challenge and has been briefed, prepared and practiced beforehand. Every day, we all make errors and forget things - it's what people do. A proper instructor will mention immediately critical items or will take over control and explain what went wrong and provide a fix or allow you to perform a mental reset. Minor items will either be discussed on the ground during the debrief or be ignored. But the debrief must also cover progress, something too many instructors omit. And let's face it, if you are not making progress, why bother continuing? You must change instructor.

Lastly, what goes around comes around. In my company we have a former instructor who used to make people's lives a misery. But he is an F/O and they are now captains. His former pupils are now making his life a misery. He is "Billy no-mates" and his life must be hell as they are demonstrating the same degree of intolerance that he did.
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Old 20th Aug 2014, 22:57
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So if he hasn't done his CPL, he must be fairly low hours still, perhaps around 80 or 90? In this case I can see 6 flying hours may not quite be enough to pass the MEP test outright, there is a lot more to handle with variable pitch props, retractable gear, all with their own set of limitations, it's easy to slip up and exceed one of these limitations which would be an automatic fail.

Having done many ME endorsements I can't see how you would ever need to spend 7 hours in the classroom.
I pity your students. I could sit in a classroom for 7 hours teaching about VP props and retractable gear, asymmetric power theory, performance comparisons between single engine, multi engine, and multi engine operating on one engine, and I'd only be scratching the surface.

The shouting on it's own is not good, but coupled with the apparent lack of groundschool it doesn't sound like a good recipe. It may be they've been including pre-flight briefs in the 7 hours of theory on their paperwork, which isn't really how the course is intended to be. There is a written paper, and it's good to know you've been prepared for it. Although you say the 7 hours theory isn't on the horizon, their notes may show it as being completed.

You need to talk to the CFI at the school and get a good idea of where you son is in his progression, and what realistically needs to be done. If it's just a couple more hours it's probably worth persevering, as if you go to a new school the first thing they will do is a check flight which is a waste of money really. If they're really saying he's nowhere near ready it might be time to cut your losses and find a different school.
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Old 21st Aug 2014, 10:09
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RTN11
I pity your students. I could sit in a classroom for 7 hours teaching about VP props and retractable gear, asymmetric power theory, performance comparisons between single engine, multi engine, and multi engine operating on one engine, and I'd only be scratching the surface.
I could spend even more time than that in the classroom, would I be teaching the student anything they needed to know to fly a twin safely? I'd have to say no.

Perhaps you guys have a different syllabus but a lot of that stuff is covered in our Principles of Flight and Aircraft Technical Knowledge subjects. Even if you don't teach it this way I'd be very hard pressed to spend more than couple of hours explaining stuff like, "VP props and retractable gear, asymmetric power theory, performance comparisons between single engine, multi engine, and multi engine operating on one engine" to the standard needed for a multi engine endorsement.

If it took longer than this either I'm explaining stuff that's not needed or I don't know my subject matter very well or I'm doing a piss poor job of putting it across.
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Old 22nd Oct 2014, 15:55
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Flight training

Hi folks, Concerned Mum here.

Thank you so much for all the help and advice you gave to my husband. As a result, my son is now ensconced at another flight school where he passed his MEP after only one hour's orientation and is now working on his IR. He also sends his thanks.

My son's experience has thrown up a couple of questions I'd appreciate advice on if any of you have the time to respond. Are flight schools regulated and, if so, by whom? Also, how often are flight instructors' training abilities tested? Finally, are flight training schools required to meet a minimum standard of education? If they are I'd be grateful if you could let me know the name of their version of 'Ofsted'.

I look forward to hearing from you.
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Old 22nd Oct 2014, 16:29
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they are regulated by the CAA : Welcome to the UK Civil Aviation Authority.

There are several ratings which the instructor needs to have current before they can teach.

The aircraft ones and the instructor rating which is valid for three years. They have to do a days ground theory and either extend by experience or by test the test must be done every 6 years.

And no there is nothing like ofsted which monitors the quality of there training. The CAA doesn't either.

If you think your going to be able t complain about a school and something be done your going to be disappointed. The flight training industry has many talented people who proved a quality service. There are also your schools which to be honest are a bunch of rip off merchants.

If you have a complaint you would be better complaining to trading standards and even then I doubt anything will be done.

Best way is to hit them in the pocket and public air the dirty washing then people won't use them.
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Old 22nd Oct 2014, 22:22
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I guess if they do MEPs and IRs then the particular school is an Authorised Training Organisation in theory at a higher level than a Registered Training Facility.


Its worth a complaint to the CAA but there is no point arguing about the school trying to screw more hours out of you. They would not be able to adjudicate on what would be a head of training's judgement.


Its better to draw attention to the fact that they are probably not following their training operations manual / basis for their ATO approval. If they are not doing one thing then they are probably not doing others.


It will be something for the inspectors to have a look at when they do their surveillance visit. They love combing through the paperwork looking for non compliance.


As to the remarks about RTFs and ATOs, I have come across RTFs that are more professionally run than some ATOs.

Last edited by chrisbl; 22nd Oct 2014 at 22:36.
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 00:45
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Your son is entitled to a copy of his training record - might make interesting reading!

...and...

Its better to draw attention to the fact that they are probably not following their training operations manual / basis for their ATO approval. If they are not doing one thing then they are probably not doing others.
As has already been stated, each course must be approved and each lesson laid out in the training manual. You should be able to see a copy of this and this states what should be being taught on each lesson. Where there is / are issues with a students progress these should be clearly documented and the student should sign record after every flight - (not necessarily to say that they agree with the comments, but to acknowledge what has been written)
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 04:21
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I've done a load of assorted licences and ratings. Most I did in near minimum hours, one I did in significantly over minimum hours and in retrospect a great deal of that was about inefficient teaching and a certain amount of padding at the training organisation

On the other hand, as an instructor, I'm very aware of the massively different skillsets and learning rates of different students. Also, whether I'm an instructor or a student, there are only two people in the aeroplane, and if we have two different opinions about how things are going - it's impossible to easily get an additional valid opinion as that additional opinion-former won't be in the cockpit for that training.

So, basically, you can't solve it. But, doing what the OPs son did - switching school to find somewhere more suited to his needs, is the only real solution.
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Old 13th Nov 2014, 15:34
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Flight training regulation

Hi folks, Concerned Mum here.

Thank you for your helpful comments. Unfortunately, although instructors are regulated by the CAA, flight training schools aren't. As it stands, they're not regulated by anyone at all.
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Old 13th Nov 2014, 16:50
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flight training schools aren't. As it stands, they're not regulated by anyone at all.
What!? Yes they are. By the UK CAA and EASA.

Different schools also train to different standards. There are some schools which will train to a higher standard than the minimum and they make no secret of this. There are also schools which meet the absolute minimum standard. As long as they are the minimum that's all that matters to the CAA. In terms of the standard you want to receive and get yourself up to is your personal decision.

It's like flying Ryanair or British Airways. They both get you there it's just a different product.
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