Crisis
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Air Taxi orders for 1000 YES 1000 aircraft!
Who's going to fly them then?
http://www.flyer.co.uk/news.php?HtmlStoryButton=675
Who's going to fly them then?
http://www.flyer.co.uk/news.php?HtmlStoryButton=675
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Don't have a go at WWW just because he's calling it as he sees it. I think at the moment caution is the only solid advice anyone can give.
The key issue here is that nobody knows what the effect of last weeks atrocities will be, but we all have a rough idea that the otucome will not be good.
We're in uncharted territory here - the closest example to this we've got is the Gulf War - the problem is that the world is a different place now, even compared to 10 years ago. The way we work, the way we communicate, and as WWW said, there was no Pprune at the time either.
A recovery will come, and it may come quickly, or it may take years, we will all have a better idea of how it pans out in 3 - 6 months time.
I'm one of those guys who has the ticket but not the job - I can't stop looking now, I won't, however I'm realistic enough not to expect my mail to be brimming with opportunities now.
All the best guys, and think about it.
The key issue here is that nobody knows what the effect of last weeks atrocities will be, but we all have a rough idea that the otucome will not be good.
We're in uncharted territory here - the closest example to this we've got is the Gulf War - the problem is that the world is a different place now, even compared to 10 years ago. The way we work, the way we communicate, and as WWW said, there was no Pprune at the time either.
A recovery will come, and it may come quickly, or it may take years, we will all have a better idea of how it pans out in 3 - 6 months time.
I'm one of those guys who has the ticket but not the job - I can't stop looking now, I won't, however I'm realistic enough not to expect my mail to be brimming with opportunities now.
All the best guys, and think about it.
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I think Scroggs is bang on. For those of you starting out, your best option is to keep the day job and try and do at least one lesson a week. Try and spread your training out instead of forking out for an integrated course.
As for me, I'm just finishing up my PPL and am going to do my ATPL's through one of the Distance Learing courses (probably Bristol) while still doing the odd bit of hour building at the weekend. That should take about 9-12 months, by which time the aviation world will hopefully be a bit more stable.
As for me, I'm just finishing up my PPL and am going to do my ATPL's through one of the Distance Learing courses (probably Bristol) while still doing the odd bit of hour building at the weekend. That should take about 9-12 months, by which time the aviation world will hopefully be a bit more stable.
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If, as we all hope HM Government works with the Aviation Industry, then that will to some small extent soften the blow.
Re-investment of Air Passenger Duty into heightened security and other measures is but one way of aiding the Airlines.
Financial lifelines will not happen in this country.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001320008-2001324059,00.html[/url]
[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: Base leg ]
Re-investment of Air Passenger Duty into heightened security and other measures is but one way of aiding the Airlines.
Financial lifelines will not happen in this country.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001320008-2001324059,00.html[/url]
[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: Base leg ]
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I think it depends on if you have to borrow to do your training.
Personally i have just dumped my job to finish off and i am loathed not to complete my current plans.
The advantages i see to completing your training now are that the schools are not going to be busy, so there won't be as many logistical problems.
When the feel good factor comes round again all the guys which have taken early retirement etc will be out of it. And there will be a big hole because the airlines arn't training any of their own. Which will take 12-13 months to fill after things go up.
Also small company jets are going to be more cost effective on insurance grounds etc. So there might be more air taxi work than before.
So by training now you will be ready for when things pick up. If people don't train for a long time the smaller FTO's might go out of business. Which would mean that when the industry is up again you won't be able to get the training even if you have the dosh because the airlines would grab the places.
So i think i will get trained then go back to work again until it sorts its self out.
MJ
Personally i have just dumped my job to finish off and i am loathed not to complete my current plans.
The advantages i see to completing your training now are that the schools are not going to be busy, so there won't be as many logistical problems.
When the feel good factor comes round again all the guys which have taken early retirement etc will be out of it. And there will be a big hole because the airlines arn't training any of their own. Which will take 12-13 months to fill after things go up.
Also small company jets are going to be more cost effective on insurance grounds etc. So there might be more air taxi work than before.
So by training now you will be ready for when things pick up. If people don't train for a long time the smaller FTO's might go out of business. Which would mean that when the industry is up again you won't be able to get the training even if you have the dosh because the airlines would grab the places.
So i think i will get trained then go back to work again until it sorts its self out.
MJ
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Scroggs, WWW et al are probably right!
I think it is advisable that those who are about to embark on an integrated course wait awhile for the dust to settle before committing a MASSIVE sum of money. Those considering modular courses can hedge their bets a little by doing the course in bits and watching the situation carefully. At least the modular students don't have to fork out upfront almost £50K.
Whatever happens, best of luck everyone!
I think it is advisable that those who are about to embark on an integrated course wait awhile for the dust to settle before committing a MASSIVE sum of money. Those considering modular courses can hedge their bets a little by doing the course in bits and watching the situation carefully. At least the modular students don't have to fork out upfront almost £50K.
Whatever happens, best of luck everyone!
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Charlie Foxtrot India
I agree with you when it comes to the aviation industry, hang in there and do not give up and do not put all your eggs in one basket, have something to fall back on.
Things will get better, we all know the industry works around cycles.
My school motto was,
"What ever you do, do it well"
Ash
I agree with you when it comes to the aviation industry, hang in there and do not give up and do not put all your eggs in one basket, have something to fall back on.
Things will get better, we all know the industry works around cycles.
My school motto was,
"What ever you do, do it well"
Ash
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Like Mad Jock, I've just quit my job, post exams, to go complete the CPL/IR. Don't have much choice but to carry on and hope that it all sorts itself out.
What strikes me as slightly odd with all this is we're only a week out from the terrible events in Manhattan, so how can the airline industry accurately predict the impact of what's happened to the extent that they're laying off thousands of people? Do they have a crystal ball, or is it just pure guesswork as to the possible reaction of the travelling public? Or is it, as I have heard said, just a fine excuse to cut back.
If something major in terms of a global conflict kicks off, then fair enough, you could understand the need for massive cut backs. But I can't help feel much of this is purely media fuelled knee-jerking and hysterics (and I speak from the position of having worked in the media). We now live in a society which takes its lead from the media, rather than the other way around like it was in the old days (bah humbug, etc).
Whilst it sounds harsh, the vast majority of those who didn't lose anyone in this tragedy, will soon forget about it and get back to their normal routine in terms of travelling, particularly when the media move onto something else. Sadly, it's just human nature.
No point in bashing WWW though. The man's just trying to sound a helpful note of caution to those in the luxurious position of not having just told their boss: "I'm quitting this dump to go and fly for a living. Goodbye."...
[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: Flandan ]
What strikes me as slightly odd with all this is we're only a week out from the terrible events in Manhattan, so how can the airline industry accurately predict the impact of what's happened to the extent that they're laying off thousands of people? Do they have a crystal ball, or is it just pure guesswork as to the possible reaction of the travelling public? Or is it, as I have heard said, just a fine excuse to cut back.
If something major in terms of a global conflict kicks off, then fair enough, you could understand the need for massive cut backs. But I can't help feel much of this is purely media fuelled knee-jerking and hysterics (and I speak from the position of having worked in the media). We now live in a society which takes its lead from the media, rather than the other way around like it was in the old days (bah humbug, etc).
Whilst it sounds harsh, the vast majority of those who didn't lose anyone in this tragedy, will soon forget about it and get back to their normal routine in terms of travelling, particularly when the media move onto something else. Sadly, it's just human nature.
No point in bashing WWW though. The man's just trying to sound a helpful note of caution to those in the luxurious position of not having just told their boss: "I'm quitting this dump to go and fly for a living. Goodbye."...
[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: Flandan ]
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People are such bloody sheep 
The world is in fundamentally the same economic shape as it was a fortnight ago if you think about it. Without demeaning the scale of the crime, all that has happened is that a few dozen fundamentalist w@nkers from an insignificant backwater Islamic nation have carried out an act of terrorism and a small and targeted military operation may need to be launched by the USA in order to bring the culprits to justice.
The Israelis have been having to deal with these kind of manic suicidal terrorist scum for decades, and they're as strong and economically sound today as they've ever been. As soon as America becomes a target it's world war bloody 3 though
The fact that this one act by this handful of insignificant religious nutters is now looking like costing many billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of jobs and plunging the entire world into financial meltdown is just bizarre to me. Don't you just want to reach out, grab the consumers by the scruff of the neck and tell them to get a grip?
I say keep on learning to fly just on general principle, and two fingers to the pr!cks who want to make their political statement by attacking our industry. Life's too short, and airline economics are too bizarre, to risk not being around and fully qualified when the next hiring boom arrives ... it might be in 10 years or it might be in 3 months, nobody really knows do they?
Keep your chins up people, and for God's sake spread a bit of positivity to everyone else you meet - the world will return to normal soon enough. See you in a flight deck soon
The world is in fundamentally the same economic shape as it was a fortnight ago if you think about it. Without demeaning the scale of the crime, all that has happened is that a few dozen fundamentalist w@nkers from an insignificant backwater Islamic nation have carried out an act of terrorism and a small and targeted military operation may need to be launched by the USA in order to bring the culprits to justice.
The Israelis have been having to deal with these kind of manic suicidal terrorist scum for decades, and they're as strong and economically sound today as they've ever been. As soon as America becomes a target it's world war bloody 3 though
The fact that this one act by this handful of insignificant religious nutters is now looking like costing many billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of jobs and plunging the entire world into financial meltdown is just bizarre to me. Don't you just want to reach out, grab the consumers by the scruff of the neck and tell them to get a grip?I say keep on learning to fly just on general principle, and two fingers to the pr!cks who want to make their political statement by attacking our industry. Life's too short, and airline economics are too bizarre, to risk not being around and fully qualified when the next hiring boom arrives ... it might be in 10 years or it might be in 3 months, nobody really knows do they?
Keep your chins up people, and for God's sake spread a bit of positivity to everyone else you meet - the world will return to normal soon enough. See you in a flight deck soon
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Although I disagree sometimes with WWW in the presentation of his points of view and opinion,he has shown some well considered arguments which have involved some foresight.I have to agree on his assessment of the market
I think the news we've had today and that due tomorrow will reinforce the sense of gloom for the pilot market.
The coming weeks will give a clearer picture.
In the longer term, hopefully there is cause to be optimistic, but who knows?
I think the news we've had today and that due tomorrow will reinforce the sense of gloom for the pilot market.
The coming weeks will give a clearer picture.
In the longer term, hopefully there is cause to be optimistic, but who knows?
Thread Starter
Airsream - I hardly think that an unproven aircraft ordered by an unproven operator merits much cause for celebration. 1,000 aircraft? Sounds a little bit convenient for soundbites to me.
For those who think a surge in corporate and air taxi jet work will help them are sadly mistaken. Its probably the hardest market to get into. Don't bother to talk to them until you have 2000hrs TT and 1000 Jet 'cause for a start they cannot insure you with less than that.
For those that disagree with me. Fine. Thats your right. Just remember please that up until a week ago I was banging the drum for pilot training and postulating that there had rarely been a better time to be a Wannabe. My Bullish mood HAS turned very Bearish this last week. That is becuase I have researched this, mulled it over, and made that decision on the basis of what I know.
I am not known as a panicky person.
My advice to date has been to put off the EXPENSIVE flight training investments for 3 - 6 months IF you can. That is all.
If you choose to take another view then that is fine by me. I've been there, done it and now the t-shirt needs a wash. However, in response to all the people asking my advice at this time I can only in all good faith take the line that I am.
Good luck and I hope I am proved wrong.
WWW
For those who think a surge in corporate and air taxi jet work will help them are sadly mistaken. Its probably the hardest market to get into. Don't bother to talk to them until you have 2000hrs TT and 1000 Jet 'cause for a start they cannot insure you with less than that.
For those that disagree with me. Fine. Thats your right. Just remember please that up until a week ago I was banging the drum for pilot training and postulating that there had rarely been a better time to be a Wannabe. My Bullish mood HAS turned very Bearish this last week. That is becuase I have researched this, mulled it over, and made that decision on the basis of what I know.
I am not known as a panicky person.
My advice to date has been to put off the EXPENSIVE flight training investments for 3 - 6 months IF you can. That is all.
If you choose to take another view then that is fine by me. I've been there, done it and now the t-shirt needs a wash. However, in response to all the people asking my advice at this time I can only in all good faith take the line that I am.
Good luck and I hope I am proved wrong.
WWW
Thread Starter
From todays Times.
This is very very serious:
-----
BA to cut 6,000 jobs as ticket sales plunge
BY BEN WEBSTER, TRANSPORT CORRESPONDENT AND CHRISTINE BUCKLEY
BRITISH Airways will announce thousands of job losses today in the most severe economic blow to Britain resulting from last’s week’s terrorist attacks.
The airline has summoned union representatives to its Heathrow headquarters. They are likely to be told that at least 6,000 staff must go as ticket sales plunge for transatlantic flights.
The losses will be on top of 1,800 job cuts for this financial year, which BA announced two weeks ago in response to the global economic slowdown. The airline employs 62,000 people, all bar a few thousand in Britain.
Tens of thousands more jobs in Britain’s aircraft manufacturing industry are at risk, with Airbus planning to follow Boeing’s announcement yesterday that it would cut 20,000 to 30,000 jobs in America. More than 60,000 people in Britain are employed making wings for Airbus aircraft and supplying parts to the Toulouse-based manufacturer. Airbus has 10,000 staff at two factories in Broughton, near Chester, and at Filton, near Bristol.
Virgin Atlantic, the launch customer for Airbus’s biggest plane to date, the A340-600, said yesterday that it was seeking talks to discuss postponement of its order for ten aircraft. Earlier this week Sir Richard Branson’s airline announced that it would be cutting 1,200 jobs.
The A380 Airbus superjumbo is also under threat. The project, which has been propped up with £500 million from the British Government in the form of a soft loan, is intended to create 22,000 jobs in Britain.
Lufthansa, the German airline, was reported yesterday to be considering cutting jobs and delaying orders of 15 A380s. Other airlines are understood to be reviewing their commitment to the £7.5 billion project. This morning union leaders from the aviation industry will urge Stephen Byers, the Transport Secretary, to give a tax rebate to the airlines and cover the costs of extra security measures.
Sir Ken Jackson, the AEEU general secretary, said: “Tens of thousands of jobs are on the line and we want the Government to support the airline and aerospace industries in ways which we haven’t done before.”
Roger Lyons, general secretary of the Manufacturing Science and Finance union, said: “We are appealing for companies not to make a knee-jerk reaction to this temporary downturn in business.”
Airlines face soaring insurance costs in the wake of the attacks, with London insurers cancelling all war and terrorism cover from Monday to raise their premiums. Rupert Atkin, chairman of Lloyd’s War Risk Committee, said that airlines would face severe increases in war cover for the aircraft themselves. “It’s fair to say that it’s hundreds of per cent,” he said.
Airlines could also face an extra insurance charge for passengers of about £1 a head.
Industry analysts predict air fares will fall initially as airlines try to tempt back reluctant passengers, but in the medium term prices will have to increase to reflect rising costs.
The six biggest European airlines will request European Union support today for an emergency aid package in a meeting with Loyola de Palacio, the Transport Commissioner. European competition rules prohibit state aid for private companies, but the firms will point out that America is about to agree a multibillion-dollar package for its airlines.
The Association of European Airlines said that its members were losing £20 million a day in sales. The airlines will request a loosening of competition rules that prevent them from collaborating. They are also likely to ask the Commission to delay new regulations that would force them to compensate passengers “bumped” off overbooked flights.
More than 30,000 jobs across Britain’s aviation industry are likely to be lost in the short term, Phil Butterworth-Hayes, civil aviation editor of Jane’s publications, said.
Rolls-Royce said that it was too early to determine what effect last week’s attacks would have. In February it received £250 million in government finance for a new generation of engines, including a type intended for the A380. Mr Byers, then the Trade Secretary, had said the money would protect 7,000 jobs, mainly in Derby.
----------
For all the optimism in the World I fail to see the silver lining here.
WWW
This is very very serious:
-----
BA to cut 6,000 jobs as ticket sales plunge
BY BEN WEBSTER, TRANSPORT CORRESPONDENT AND CHRISTINE BUCKLEY
BRITISH Airways will announce thousands of job losses today in the most severe economic blow to Britain resulting from last’s week’s terrorist attacks.
The airline has summoned union representatives to its Heathrow headquarters. They are likely to be told that at least 6,000 staff must go as ticket sales plunge for transatlantic flights.
The losses will be on top of 1,800 job cuts for this financial year, which BA announced two weeks ago in response to the global economic slowdown. The airline employs 62,000 people, all bar a few thousand in Britain.
Tens of thousands more jobs in Britain’s aircraft manufacturing industry are at risk, with Airbus planning to follow Boeing’s announcement yesterday that it would cut 20,000 to 30,000 jobs in America. More than 60,000 people in Britain are employed making wings for Airbus aircraft and supplying parts to the Toulouse-based manufacturer. Airbus has 10,000 staff at two factories in Broughton, near Chester, and at Filton, near Bristol.
Virgin Atlantic, the launch customer for Airbus’s biggest plane to date, the A340-600, said yesterday that it was seeking talks to discuss postponement of its order for ten aircraft. Earlier this week Sir Richard Branson’s airline announced that it would be cutting 1,200 jobs.
The A380 Airbus superjumbo is also under threat. The project, which has been propped up with £500 million from the British Government in the form of a soft loan, is intended to create 22,000 jobs in Britain.
Lufthansa, the German airline, was reported yesterday to be considering cutting jobs and delaying orders of 15 A380s. Other airlines are understood to be reviewing their commitment to the £7.5 billion project. This morning union leaders from the aviation industry will urge Stephen Byers, the Transport Secretary, to give a tax rebate to the airlines and cover the costs of extra security measures.
Sir Ken Jackson, the AEEU general secretary, said: “Tens of thousands of jobs are on the line and we want the Government to support the airline and aerospace industries in ways which we haven’t done before.”
Roger Lyons, general secretary of the Manufacturing Science and Finance union, said: “We are appealing for companies not to make a knee-jerk reaction to this temporary downturn in business.”
Airlines face soaring insurance costs in the wake of the attacks, with London insurers cancelling all war and terrorism cover from Monday to raise their premiums. Rupert Atkin, chairman of Lloyd’s War Risk Committee, said that airlines would face severe increases in war cover for the aircraft themselves. “It’s fair to say that it’s hundreds of per cent,” he said.
Airlines could also face an extra insurance charge for passengers of about £1 a head.
Industry analysts predict air fares will fall initially as airlines try to tempt back reluctant passengers, but in the medium term prices will have to increase to reflect rising costs.
The six biggest European airlines will request European Union support today for an emergency aid package in a meeting with Loyola de Palacio, the Transport Commissioner. European competition rules prohibit state aid for private companies, but the firms will point out that America is about to agree a multibillion-dollar package for its airlines.
The Association of European Airlines said that its members were losing £20 million a day in sales. The airlines will request a loosening of competition rules that prevent them from collaborating. They are also likely to ask the Commission to delay new regulations that would force them to compensate passengers “bumped” off overbooked flights.
More than 30,000 jobs across Britain’s aviation industry are likely to be lost in the short term, Phil Butterworth-Hayes, civil aviation editor of Jane’s publications, said.
Rolls-Royce said that it was too early to determine what effect last week’s attacks would have. In February it received £250 million in government finance for a new generation of engines, including a type intended for the A380. Mr Byers, then the Trade Secretary, had said the money would protect 7,000 jobs, mainly in Derby.
----------
For all the optimism in the World I fail to see the silver lining here.
WWW
Thread Starter
See:
http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimat...2&t=010898&p=3
When BA stop recruiting it hits hard. The IT pilot does not resign, the regional pilot does not resign, the small operator/flying instructor does not resign. Thus BA stopping hiring a pilot results in 3 - 4 vacancies not being advertised.
WWW
http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimat...2&t=010898&p=3
When BA stop recruiting it hits hard. The IT pilot does not resign, the regional pilot does not resign, the small operator/flying instructor does not resign. Thus BA stopping hiring a pilot results in 3 - 4 vacancies not being advertised.
WWW
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It's 7,000;
BRITISH AIRWAYS CONFIRMS 7,000 - JOB CUTS
British Airways has confirmed it's to axe 7,000 jobs.
The company says the cutbacks are in response to the impact of the US terrorist attacks on transatlantic business.
BA had already announced 1,800 job losses earlier this month.
The latest announcement follows the decision by American Airlines and United Airlines to cut 40,000 jobs between them.
BA has been hit by the disruption following the attacks, and expects a fall in passenger numbers on transatlantic routes - which make up 38% of its capacity.
(c) Copyright Ananova Ltd 2001, all rights reserved.
BRITISH AIRWAYS CONFIRMS 7,000 - JOB CUTS
British Airways has confirmed it's to axe 7,000 jobs.
The company says the cutbacks are in response to the impact of the US terrorist attacks on transatlantic business.
BA had already announced 1,800 job losses earlier this month.
The latest announcement follows the decision by American Airlines and United Airlines to cut 40,000 jobs between them.
BA has been hit by the disruption following the attacks, and expects a fall in passenger numbers on transatlantic routes - which make up 38% of its capacity.
(c) Copyright Ananova Ltd 2001, all rights reserved.
Thread Starter
Gill have collapsed. I guess around 40 pilots join the 160 odd predicted at Virgin.
Gentlemen this is not good.
I am just amazed at how the market has gone from being so good to so bad in 10 days.
Hopefully this time next year it'll all be back to normal. For those about to graduate or job hunting - and I know hae been speaking to some of you today - you have my heartfelt sympathies.
WWW
Gentlemen this is not good.
I am just amazed at how the market has gone from being so good to so bad in 10 days.
Hopefully this time next year it'll all be back to normal. For those about to graduate or job hunting - and I know hae been speaking to some of you today - you have my heartfelt sympathies.
WWW
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WWW (or is it the Grim Reaper!?)
Forgive me if I sound a little tense, but I work for "Big Airways" and am obviously unsure of my future....
How much longer are you going to keep writing things that people can work out for themselves...For gods sake, lets just see how this industry develops in the next few months and we'll all see for ourselves...
I think enough has been said on this subject so please close your topic and wind yer neck in !!!
Forgive me if I sound a little tense, but I work for "Big Airways" and am obviously unsure of my future....
How much longer are you going to keep writing things that people can work out for themselves...For gods sake, lets just see how this industry develops in the next few months and we'll all see for ourselves...
I think enough has been said on this subject so please close your topic and wind yer neck in !!!
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If he news of Gill on top of everything else is correct WWW is right this surely is a crisis, beyond all our worst nightmares two weeks ago. Everyone is of course a little upset and rightly so. Jobs are being lost and for alot of wannabes they are let with a massive debt and no job. As WWW rightly suggest if you are about to embark on training just hold fire for a few months. It is time to sit back see what the US do in response to these cowardly acts. If their action is swift recovery of the industry could follow.
Additionally as IFR points out on another thread, this like many other downturns is part of a cycle. There will in time be another recruitment boom. However that is not going to happen for at least the next 2 years. Sit tight!
Additionally as IFR points out on another thread, this like many other downturns is part of a cycle. There will in time be another recruitment boom. However that is not going to happen for at least the next 2 years. Sit tight!
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Honiley-
If you doubt the writings of WWW then look back in 6 months on this forum, and count how many wannabees are starting threads along the lines of' just landed my first jet job !'etc.
I don't think there will be a single one. All the guys/girls I recently trained with are looking at around 1 year before anything moves again.
I'm just glad I have a fall back plan to keep me going, until that day I land in the right hand seat.
If you doubt the writings of WWW then look back in 6 months on this forum, and count how many wannabees are starting threads along the lines of' just landed my first jet job !'etc.
I don't think there will be a single one. All the guys/girls I recently trained with are looking at around 1 year before anything moves again.
I'm just glad I have a fall back plan to keep me going, until that day I land in the right hand seat.