30 grand down the pan???

[McGee]

Hello,

Firstly I must apologise to some for whome this must be the most frequent question ever asked:
Is it worth it?

I'm a british national, 31 yrs old single. no previous flying experience.....made a bit of money....

am I living in a fantasy world by thinking that I can become a commercial pilot....I've researched the subject and come to the conclusion that going to Florida 30,000 GBP inpocket and getting the CPL and JAA instructors license and 3yrs ( 14 months to get the qualifications and under a J1 visa with 18 months being an instructor) down the line with hopefully 1500hrs experience would stand me in good stead to get taken on by an airline?

Has any body been down this route....does it work??? am I too old?
Am I living in cookoo land...just considering it.....should I stick with the boring 2.4 life-style route? then live with regret!

What do you all think.....shall I get my 1st class medical over with and take the aptitude tests????
Do airlines really take on pilots via the training described above? Am I to old? Will there be work out there in 2- 3 yrs time??? Questions, questions, questions!!!!!!!!

any response would be gratefully recieved.


thanks for your time..... McGee

[Just another student]

My thoughts for what they are worth..................

The one thing that you don't want in life is regrets, could I have made it? What would flying a 777 feel like? I say if you have the money what have you go to lose? Take the aptitude tests and medical, then see where that leaves you.
I personally don't believe that your age would be a problem, but then again I don't really know. However there are guys on here that do and will be able to tell you more than what I know. I think a A.T.P.L (1500hrs) would stand you in very good stead with an airline.
The industry is gradually picking up and we all live in hope that there will be jobs, otherwise I will be 21 with one huge debt to deal with!

[Oleo]

You yourself know the answer to this one grasshopper.

I started at 22 but through a tortuous road ended up at 36 with 1500 hours mainly instructing, with the right licence and a pulse when the airlines were hiring, and was taken on last year to fly a glass B737.

No guarantees, but then you won't win the lottery without buying a ticket either.

[DeeTee]

Fair question, and it has been asked before, but that doesn't change it's validity. I planed to do exactly what you are. So at Age 30 went to States got PPL, Night, IMC, and 185 hours. Came back to Uk to do the ATPL's. Plan was to return to States to get instructors rating, BCPL, multi etc. and instruct. However industry was changing, felt time was right, changed plan and went to BAe Prestwick. Got BCPL, CPL/IR (all this modular). Turns out industry was changing. Unemployed for year and a half. Worked to keep a little money coming in doing crap jobs (driving lorries etc), had no spare financial flex so couldn't get instructors rating.. Had to have a job I could walk away from at a moments notice. Could not afford to be stuck in a 3 month contract when opportunity came knocking. Very, very depressed, £44k down the pan......thought of jacking it all in and going back to old job...year and a half after getting CPL/IR phone rings on Tues, come for interview tomorrow. Go to interview on Wed, cock interview up. Thurs night as cycling home from crap job in rain in Feb. Mobile rings...can I start on Monday. Flying Medium jets, RHS, with a scheduled carrier. only 250 hours...let me see, I am really enjoying driving lorries...but what the heck....DAMN Right I can start. Go to work on friday, tell boss I'm leaving. Accidentally hit bosses mercedes with 7.5ton truck and rip wing off his car (true and it was an accident).

Start job. do sim, pass sim, get on line. Flying RHS commercial jets for last 2 and half years.

Happy....YES.

Was it the right thing to do.....YES

Would I have done it even if I couldn't have got a job....YES

Why....I didn't want to be sat on my chair in the garden, when I was 65 years old looking at the vapour trails above me and saying 'I wish I'd tried'. rather be there saying 'well I gave it my best shot'.

Best of luck mate.

[The Greaser]

Mcgee,

I'm not sure whether you will be able to get a J-1 if you doing a JAA course in the states.

I went over in 1999 with a J-1, got my FAA licenses, instructed for 18 months, came back with 1500 hours, converted to JAA and now hopefully lined up for a job via the ATP scheme sometime in next few months (fingers crossed). I have never regretted this route - in my opinion it has given me the upperhand over 'greeener' frozen ATPL'ers and I have spent no more money in the process.

Good Luck

[monkeyboy]

DeeTee, a truely inspirational posting from your good self. Almost bought tears to my eyes to hear that so many people who have made it went to hell and back to get there, which is how it's feeling for me at the moment. Like you say, it's the regret thing later on in life that I don't want to face. At least if you give it a go and fail you can hold your head up high knowing you tried rather than taking the easy option by staying in a dead end job that pays well.

McGee, you're not tool old. Go for it!

MB

[MorningGlory]

Splendid DeeTee, Splendid!

McGee DO IT!

[Sky Goose]

DeeTee, brilliant post, puts it all in a nutshell.
I myself am doing the bicycle in the rain thing at the moment, and part time ATPL's after a year in the States to get Com/IR.
That feeling when you get into your uniform for the first time, then I recon you know its for real. How can it not be worth it!
I find myself rubber nekking every time I hear aeroplane noise, I dont have a choice but to go for it, the regret in later life would kill me.
McGee go for it ! , im 28 and still at least 6 month away from frozen ATPL with only about 250 hours.
I know a Lufthansa pilot who only started at 31, and is now in command of an A320.

Good Luck Bloke!

[Send Clowns]

Good luck McGee!

If you're not sure, pop to your nearest flying club and take a couple of trial lessons. If you don't like it spend your money elsewhere, if you do your question will rapidly change to "where can I do all this?"!

[Stu Bigzorst]

In Sept 99 I posted the same question right here, and got similar replies. I was 33 and very well paid. I seem to remember Raw Data saying "go for it".

I did the integrated course at Oxford and worked hard (thinking this may make a difference). All GS passed first time with a 93% average, IR full pass first attempt and good reports. Only proper slip was the 170A, but I guess we're all allowed one really bad day. I know it's a cliche, but I really should have stayed in bed.

Finished 8 April 01. Recommended to BA, final board on 7 Sept - all looked pretty promising until the following week. Every other airline in the world said sorry mate. I had to categorise each letter into either "they are fools" or "they haven't asked enough about me". Sickening that I'd done well and got some storming reports, but the only information I ever gave was "170 hours piston". Even CTC said no thanks because I was one month too old!

Then blagged my way into the Ryanair and Easyjet offices - FR gave me a sim check and Joyce gave me a smile and "1500 hours minimum, good luck with your career". Got a call from DD saying I'd passed the sim and was in a holding pool. I called regularly after that, but I was always in the pool. Come to think of it, I'm probably still there.

All year I was using my "plan B", doing IT stuff for various companies. At Christmas I did a small IT job for a small airline. In Feb I did a larger job (8 weeks or so) for them. On 8 April 02 I started my type rating, and on Tuesday I'll have completed my line training.

Apart from the fact that I have become a victim of Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome, I am happier than ever. I am earning a third of what I did in 99, but am three times happier.

What did I learn?

1. Doing well does not increase your chances of getting a job.
2. Everyone will say "no". Prepare for that.
3. Getting a job is about meeting the right people, letting them discover you're an OK sort of bloke, and then being as flexible as they require.
4. Sustaining a relationship will be tricky.
5. Turboprops are actually really good fun.
6. Your plan B had better be good, because you're going to use it.
7. Be keen, but not over keen.
8. An Oxford FATPL is not cheap.
9. At Oxford, you can either moan, or get on with it and have a good time. I elected to do the latter and got out quickly, with good training under my belt.
10. There's a lot BS floating around. Think carefully and make your own mind up.

Good luck!

[gdnhalley]

McGee I hope you are not to old, I,m 43 and just started doing my ATPL's with Bristol yesterday. I've always wanted to fly for a living but my eyesight wasn't good enough although I scraped through an old class 3 medical 12 years ago and have a ppl and 1200 hours now.
Since the changes in eyesight rules in January I have managed to get a class 1 medical (under the new proposals which may not even be adopted, in which case they will probably take it back). by doing an FAA CPL and been treated as a renewal.
My plan is to get an ATPL as quickly as possible while still running my farm and hopefully looking for an Islander or Turboprop job next year.
Being a farmer I'm an optomist already so I would definitely go for it if I was in your position.

Good Luck

[monkeyboy]

I'm crying again!

Stu, again, truely amazing.
Thanks for the post. Nice to hear that it can still be achieved.

[Quidditch Captain]

gdnhalley

Good to see I'm not the only 43 year old on here!
(Last 6 ATPLs exams June)

McGee

Go for it! Good luck.

[FL245]

McGee

Like yourself and many others I posted a similar question some time ago.

Working in IT, I hated the job with a passion. Get up at 7.30am, go to work, sit beside the same people, tap on a keyboard, looking forward to Friday, go out and start the whole thing all over again. I though, where are I going to be in 20 years? Maybe a company car and an office of my own? No thanks..

Taking the first step in this career is one of the hardest things, you are at the stage of should I / shouldn’t I. I remember the first day at ATPL ground school. I had just left my IT job 2 weeks before, and here I was training to be a pilot! After two days at ground school, I thought, bloody hell what have I done!

Like many others I spend a long time looking for a job and the ups and downs that that brings, well all downs! I took many strange jobs (moving blips on the radar screen in order to train air traffic control students at London Air Traffic)

After a stint of parachute dropping, survey work and then single pilot ops on a multi piston working with the same company as Pilot Pete, I got the break.

Just like DeeTee, it was one of those out of the blue calls! Well today I am RHS of a Embraer 145 and flying all over Europe.

A Number of friends on the way gave up at various stages, I keep in touch with a few and they say that they wished they had stuck it out.

The training is intense, finding a job can be demoralising, there is lots of money involved, and sure you are going to get loads of letters saying no.

Stu Bigzorst your 10 points are so, so true, but one addition…


11. NEVER lose sight of your goal, you will only live to regret it.


McGee, I speak to friends who I used to work with in IT, guys who I sat opposite, guys who though I was mad, they would say ‘ you are going to be a pilot?’ well when we meet for beers they just want to ask me all about the job. They cannot believe that their mate decided to change his whole life and become a pilot, they are good guys and full of praise. But they will tell me that they are sat at the same desk, tapping on the same computer, and are fed up of it.

This is the worlds best job, it’s worth it all, but you need to be a bit selfish to get here.

I wish you good luck, realise your dreams, because you have the ability to make them a reality.

FL245

[DeeTee]

Well said 245. Like you I know a few guys who started on this road and never finished/stuck it out. A wise man once said the longest journeys start out with a small first step.

However, I am going to commit a cardinal sin here....I am going to make a general statement, and I hope those that can contradict me do so....but....Without exception all the guys I know who never got that first job made the same 'mistake'. They all completed their training and returned to their safe 'old jobs. They did that cos it gave them more money, cos it was safe and comfortable and most of all cos it was low risk. The problem with that is you suddenly find yourself working at your old desk, Monday to Friday. Instead of writing lots of letters and phoning people, you only write a few. The deadlines of your old job start to become more important to you than checking Flight International for jobs, or visiting airfields and companies, or blagging crew room visits etc. etc. And all of a sudden you find a few weeks have gone by and you haven't written any aplication letters and your I/R has lapsed and ....maybe it was never meant to be.

However, everyone who I know who got their first job, even after 2 years of searching all did the same things. They all went for it totally. Finished training and took crap jobs to give themselves the maximum flexibility and also the maximum incentive to get out and get that elusive first job. I had a BSc in Business Information Technology, but as all the contracts I was offered were minimum 3 months I didn't take them. Instead I worked for min wage doing jobs I could drop at a days notice.....and as 245 confirms, that is the way it works out. Most airlines don't really plan their recruitment. It happens as a spasm, all of a sudden they have a space on a training course. Someone lets them down. Someone leaves to a bigger airline and they are stuck. The Chief Pilot says to his Ops Administrator, 'who have we got', he/she opens a drawer, reaches in and pulls out the top four cv's. The CP glances at them and says, okay get them in for an interview. I'm free tomorrow afternoon. And that is honestly how it works. Your cycling home from your crap job, its Feb, it's raining. You are cold, bitterly cold, you've been cycling against a B*****d headwind for 6 miles, its dark and above the din of the cars passing you hear your mobile ringing. You stop your bicycle. Pull off your gloves and your cold fingers struggle to undo the buttons on your jacket and get the phone out. You don't recognise the number but put on your best cheery voice and all of a sudden you get that warm fuzzy feeling and yes you can come for an interview, yes it's no prob. Tommorrow afternoon would be lovely....and that's generally how it works.

Or the alternative and this really did happen to me. The long version of this on this thread called 'do people really want jobs' or something like that. But basically, sometime ago, I saw a CV in the crew room mail. It was addressed to the right person, but with their name spelt wrong, and sex wrong....oops. Also the company name had changed about 5 years before and they had the old name on it. Being in a generous mood, I lifted the aforementioned letter and CV, opened it. Our company was recruiting at that time. The CV was from a Wannabe with CPL/IR, 250 hours and good passes. We'd recruited at that level before. I'd got my job at that level...so I phoned him at his work. It was his old job. I knew that cos it said so on his cv. He was very busy. Very hard to get hold of and obviously distracted, even when told that it was an airline he had written to calling him. I told him I'd got his cv. I told him that he'd got these little details wrong...has anyone ever mentioned attention to detail being important to an airline pilot? and asked him if he wanted me to bin it so he could send an up to date one as we were recruiting....his answer...and I jest not. 'Nah, don't bother, just stick it in'. I told him that it woulld probably get binned...but he was distracted, I could hear people in his office talking to him. He told me not to worry about it and just stick it in. I did...It went in as written, and as he'd got all these minor details wrong..I mean if you cannot even get the company name right you obviously don't want a job with them...it went in the bin. I'm not saying he would have got in, he might not even have got an interview...but he was too involved with his old job and had lost sight of his target. I would bet that if he was serving burgers at MAcD's, or driving lorries for min wage then his answer would have been a bit different...don't you?

Anyway, ramble over. Go for it, but don't do it half way....total commitment.

best of luck.

DeeTee

[pil]

DeeTee, if you ever get bored of piloting, I reckon being motivational guru is your next step. Two brilliant posts there.
These are all great stories that remind me exactly why I'm leaving my job in a few weeks to start the ATPL's. I will admit I'm pooing my pants over this, but as 245 put it, who want's to be bashing the same keyboard in 20 years time. Not me!
Please keep these stories coming. It is strangly reassuring to here these tales. At lease I know what I've got to face in the next few years!

Cheers one and all

Phil.

[FL245]

ummm, HotStuff, I get the feeling I know you?

[phd]

DeeTee
Great posting - just what wannabees need to read.

Quidditch Captain and gdnhalley - good to hear from you both - I am just on the lower side of 40 and working towards an ATPL by the time I am 42/43, so feel at home with you around on pprune. I have left it late to enter a commercial flying career, mainly due to the Class 1 eyesight standards only changing recently, but also until now I could never have afforded the huge expense of it all. I made the decision about 18 months ago to totally change career direction from a well paid and secure but bl**dy frustrating job that depresses me, to one that entralls and inspires me. I love every part of aviation, the stimulation of learning new skills every time you fly, the sheer exhiliration and privilege of being able to pilot an aircraft around the skies, the fascination with aircraft and how they are designed, built and maintained, the bustle of the airfield or airport. I even love the smell of kerosene! I must be a sad anorak.

I am enjoying building hours and broadening my flying experience at the moment and will shortly be commencing the ATPL course via distance learning. My initial career ambition is to become a poverty stricken flying instructor, and perhaps one day I might even have sufficient hours and there may be a large enough deficit of qualified pilots for me to land an airline job. If not I will still be happy and contented as I will have relished every minute of my time involved with aeroplanes and the people that fly them.
____________________________________________________
"Happy are they who dream dreams and are prepared to pay the price to make them come true"

[Pilot Pete]

McGee

This is how I did it;

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&threadid=6911

Regards

PP

[McGee]

thanks

just like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their input....theres a great deal of optimism out there which really does inspire me!
and to para-phrase that wel known pilot ....neil armstrong....we must all take "one small step" in order to realise our " giant leaps"
once again thanks for the postings.

I'm off to book a trial flight

McGee