OATS and Ryanair
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OATS and Ryanair
I have read in previous posts about low pilots getting jobs with Ryanair because they trained at OATS. I trained at OATS modular and wondered how they have done it.
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This was a one-off - well, almost a one-off, because it has happened before - but it has not happened since Sep 11. However, it may happen again if the industry picks up, and most people believe that it probably will, given enough time.
Ryanair needed about 6 fATPL 200-hour new pilots and decided that it was all just too much hassle putting adverts in "Flight" and setting up selection boards and all the rest of the whole nine yards. Anyone who's been a Flight Ops Manager or a Chief Pilot knows how expensive the recruiting process can be - in general, you reckon that the recruitment cost (just the recruitment cost - not the training cost) for each new recruit is approximately 6 - 9 months initial salary.
So they short-circuited the whole process by coming straight to Oxford and said "Please could you recomend six likely lads straight from the top of the next self-sponsored course to graduate?" We gave them six names and they took them with virtually no further questions asked.
As far as I know, 5 of them turned out to be very good and again, as far as I know, are still with Ryanair. One did not fit and was heaved out fairly early. However, I think that that may have just been an incompatibility with the company way of doing things because, after a short period of looking for work, he got a job with a London-based airline and has been fine ever since.
As I said, this was a one-off and since Sep 11, it has not happened again. But if the industry picks up, who knows what might happen in future?. Certainly at Oxford, the instructors thought that it was a tremendous vote of confidence in us. Just hope it happens again!
If you want more details, Batty could probably fill you in, if he happens to be surfing this site and sees this (he was one of the six).
Ryanair needed about 6 fATPL 200-hour new pilots and decided that it was all just too much hassle putting adverts in "Flight" and setting up selection boards and all the rest of the whole nine yards. Anyone who's been a Flight Ops Manager or a Chief Pilot knows how expensive the recruiting process can be - in general, you reckon that the recruitment cost (just the recruitment cost - not the training cost) for each new recruit is approximately 6 - 9 months initial salary.
So they short-circuited the whole process by coming straight to Oxford and said "Please could you recomend six likely lads straight from the top of the next self-sponsored course to graduate?" We gave them six names and they took them with virtually no further questions asked.
As far as I know, 5 of them turned out to be very good and again, as far as I know, are still with Ryanair. One did not fit and was heaved out fairly early. However, I think that that may have just been an incompatibility with the company way of doing things because, after a short period of looking for work, he got a job with a London-based airline and has been fine ever since.
As I said, this was a one-off and since Sep 11, it has not happened again. But if the industry picks up, who knows what might happen in future?. Certainly at Oxford, the instructors thought that it was a tremendous vote of confidence in us. Just hope it happens again!
If you want more details, Batty could probably fill you in, if he happens to be surfing this site and sees this (he was one of the six).
Last edited by oxford blue; 19th May 2002 at 17:04.
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OB
Thanks for the clarification, it would seem that all integrated and modular self sponsored students have this impression that upon graduating to fATPL and having good ground exam results. Then there is a long line of limo's driven by cheif pilots of the country's finest airlines waiting to take them straight to the simulator.
Your admission that this was a one-off is very welcomed.
oh & BTW Im not knocking oxford - been there seems a great place to learn especialy groundschool. Just the hype about OAT students having a better chance of a job than anybody else.
You may also wish to clarify whether this hype is started by oxford themselves or if they just ignore it because its good for business....
Thanks for the clarification, it would seem that all integrated and modular self sponsored students have this impression that upon graduating to fATPL and having good ground exam results. Then there is a long line of limo's driven by cheif pilots of the country's finest airlines waiting to take them straight to the simulator.
Your admission that this was a one-off is very welcomed.
oh & BTW Im not knocking oxford - been there seems a great place to learn especialy groundschool. Just the hype about OAT students having a better chance of a job than anybody else.
You may also wish to clarify whether this hype is started by oxford themselves or if they just ignore it because its good for business....
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Well Russell,
Your right, if you've done very well at oats then you should be put on the list of suitable candidates for recommendation. I know about a dozen people who are in the process of getting jobs or already have them. About 6 who now work with ryanair, and potentially another dozen. about 5 with BE and about 3 with citiexpress.
These are just people I know and studied along side. So it does happen and before I'm asked, I don't work for OATS. I just like the truth to be told and i happen to be one of those students that has benefited from the above process. OATS may cost a fortune but I have to agree that it has helped a large number of people i know get great jobs.
Your right, if you've done very well at oats then you should be put on the list of suitable candidates for recommendation. I know about a dozen people who are in the process of getting jobs or already have them. About 6 who now work with ryanair, and potentially another dozen. about 5 with BE and about 3 with citiexpress.
These are just people I know and studied along side. So it does happen and before I'm asked, I don't work for OATS. I just like the truth to be told and i happen to be one of those students that has benefited from the above process. OATS may cost a fortune but I have to agree that it has helped a large number of people i know get great jobs.
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OB,
It has happened since Sept 11th. 2 people off my course have just been offered jobs, one to start in June and one in July! I have also heard about one being referred from Cabair for interview next month. Its all good news
It has happened since Sept 11th. 2 people off my course have just been offered jobs, one to start in June and one in July! I have also heard about one being referred from Cabair for interview next month. Its all good news
Why do it if it's not fun?
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It's refreshing to hear that this is a "one off".
I can see the merits in Ryanair's decision not to sort through thousands of CVs when they can ask the schools (or, in this case, one particular school) to do the hard work for them. But, as a modular student who can't do an integrated course because I have to continue working in my current job whilst training, the idea that recruiting could be done in this way is a little alarming, since it means that, once I get my ATPL(f), there's no why I can even get my CV onto the chief pilot's desk.
I value the work that OATS does - I've heard many good things about them - but I hope this type of recruitment doesn't become the norm.
FFF
---------------
I can see the merits in Ryanair's decision not to sort through thousands of CVs when they can ask the schools (or, in this case, one particular school) to do the hard work for them. But, as a modular student who can't do an integrated course because I have to continue working in my current job whilst training, the idea that recruiting could be done in this way is a little alarming, since it means that, once I get my ATPL(f), there's no why I can even get my CV onto the chief pilot's desk.
I value the work that OATS does - I've heard many good things about them - but I hope this type of recruitment doesn't become the norm.
FFF
---------------
The FACT of the matter is that it is standard practice for airlines on occassion to call the largest FTO's and ask for a shortlist of suitable candidates from their self sponsored pupils.
I have seen this happen at BAE, OATS and CABAIR over the years. Because these schools do integrated courses and have relationships with airlines. They also are well known enough to be known by Chief Pilots and the like.
It is always done because of some unforseen event. Often unexpected expansion or loss of flight crew for some reason.
It is statistically a rare event. If I had to stick a number on it I would say perhaps 2% of self sponsored student on integrated courses get jobs as a result of airlines seeking graduates direct from the large schools.
In the good times a year ago there was almost a standing arrangement at BAE that the best one or two from a self sponsored course got a "recommendation" from the head of training. This went to BA who would then take you to interview stage and accept you as a direct entry TEP (if you will).
Believe me. Every course has its Atomic Chan ( as he was called in Jerez in my time ) who just aces all his flight tests and walks through the exams wondering what all the fuss is about.
You - yes you - are just an ordinary student who will become an ordinary pilot.
You should not plan or aspire to getting your first job on the back of a FTO recommendation. IT WON'T HAPPEN for you. Its akin to getting airborne with not enough fuel and hoping you get a tailwind...
I have never seen an advert requiring applicants to have graduate from a certain school. Sometimes an airline will specify that they want graduates from Integrated courses. Other times they want a minmum number of hours on a still frozen ATPL and don't care how you trained.
To be honest "the airlines" don't know jack about flight training and schools.
This shows by the naive way they ask for "the best" handful of students at times.
Looking just at exam marks and first time passes in flight tests is a rubbish way of finding the best line pilot. If they would just get off their backside and get into the instructors crew room and lock the management in the broom cupboard for 5 minutes they would do far better.
It never ceases to frustrate FI's that employers never speak to them about ex-students they are considering. I have seen the star of the course all round good guy totally overlooked because he failed Instruments first time or mis-identified village A for village B on their CPL skilltest.
I would recommend though that you adopt an attitude with your FTO along the lines that you WANT them to recommend you to an airline. You never know...
Good luck,
WWW
I have seen this happen at BAE, OATS and CABAIR over the years. Because these schools do integrated courses and have relationships with airlines. They also are well known enough to be known by Chief Pilots and the like.
It is always done because of some unforseen event. Often unexpected expansion or loss of flight crew for some reason.
It is statistically a rare event. If I had to stick a number on it I would say perhaps 2% of self sponsored student on integrated courses get jobs as a result of airlines seeking graduates direct from the large schools.
In the good times a year ago there was almost a standing arrangement at BAE that the best one or two from a self sponsored course got a "recommendation" from the head of training. This went to BA who would then take you to interview stage and accept you as a direct entry TEP (if you will).
Believe me. Every course has its Atomic Chan ( as he was called in Jerez in my time ) who just aces all his flight tests and walks through the exams wondering what all the fuss is about.
You - yes you - are just an ordinary student who will become an ordinary pilot.
You should not plan or aspire to getting your first job on the back of a FTO recommendation. IT WON'T HAPPEN for you. Its akin to getting airborne with not enough fuel and hoping you get a tailwind...
I have never seen an advert requiring applicants to have graduate from a certain school. Sometimes an airline will specify that they want graduates from Integrated courses. Other times they want a minmum number of hours on a still frozen ATPL and don't care how you trained.
To be honest "the airlines" don't know jack about flight training and schools.
This shows by the naive way they ask for "the best" handful of students at times.
Looking just at exam marks and first time passes in flight tests is a rubbish way of finding the best line pilot. If they would just get off their backside and get into the instructors crew room and lock the management in the broom cupboard for 5 minutes they would do far better.
It never ceases to frustrate FI's that employers never speak to them about ex-students they are considering. I have seen the star of the course all round good guy totally overlooked because he failed Instruments first time or mis-identified village A for village B on their CPL skilltest.
I would recommend though that you adopt an attitude with your FTO along the lines that you WANT them to recommend you to an airline. You never know...
Good luck,
WWW
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Couple of points:
Jasonjdr:
I'm not saying that no-one from Oxford has got a job since Sep 11th - of course some of them have. What I meant by it being a one-off was that, as far as I know, we haven't had direct recruitment in that way since then. However, we have appointed a Career Development Officer to our permanent staff (who is a former Oxford CGI and former BA flight deck crew) and one of his roles will be to help Oxford graduates land their first job.
FlyingFor Fun:
We do not discriminate aginst modular students at Oxford. We make our appraisals of students on a case-by-case basis. We would be very happy to recommend a good modular student. Many wannabes think of Oxford only in terms of the long ATPL course, or quick brush-ups. However, we run modular, just like other schools and we value our modular (both distance learning and full-time residential groundschool) students.
Jasonjdr:
I'm not saying that no-one from Oxford has got a job since Sep 11th - of course some of them have. What I meant by it being a one-off was that, as far as I know, we haven't had direct recruitment in that way since then. However, we have appointed a Career Development Officer to our permanent staff (who is a former Oxford CGI and former BA flight deck crew) and one of his roles will be to help Oxford graduates land their first job.
FlyingFor Fun:
We do not discriminate aginst modular students at Oxford. We make our appraisals of students on a case-by-case basis. We would be very happy to recommend a good modular student. Many wannabes think of Oxford only in terms of the long ATPL course, or quick brush-ups. However, we run modular, just like other schools and we value our modular (both distance learning and full-time residential groundschool) students.
Last edited by oxford blue; 20th May 2002 at 09:31.
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OB,
Sorry, didn't really provide enough information. My course graduated post sept 11th (actually, October). So the afore mentioned job offers were made to students who were recommended by OATS after this time. So, as far as I can see, there was some sort of recruitment being carried out by Ryanair, albeit non-direct By the way, congrats to Lofty for the CDO position. Couldn't have thought of a better person for the position.
WWW. Spot on with the comments re. FI feedback, again.
Sorry, didn't really provide enough information. My course graduated post sept 11th (actually, October). So the afore mentioned job offers were made to students who were recommended by OATS after this time. So, as far as I can see, there was some sort of recruitment being carried out by Ryanair, albeit non-direct
By the way, congrats to Lofty for the CDO position. Couldn't have thought of a better person for the position.WWW. Spot on with the comments re. FI feedback, again.
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Just a few areas to clarify. I know a bit about what's going on with relation to Ryanairs request for pilots from OATS.
Firstly lets sort out a bit of the incorrect statement(s) put on here.
Oxford Blue: Just a small point but you stated: that Ryanair asked: "Please could you recomend six likely lads straight from the top of the next self-sponsored course to graduate?"
However this is not the complete truth. Out of the 6 students that have now been selected by Ryainair from OATS, 5 are old students. 2 of which had been offered jobs by BE but as BE could not give them a definate date to start OATS put them fwd to Ryanair. Now those 2 guys finished in March of last year.
3 of the students are from courses which finished towards the end of last year and as for the last one his name didn't ring a bell with me but I was informed that he finished earlier this year.
Now to clarify I know these points to be true as I know 4/6 guys who were taken on personally and it came straight from them. Obviously its good to know that things may be looking to turn around and Congrats to the guys that got in.
Oh one other thing for Visual: All the guys who have been taken on were all self sponsored. I do however agree with the fact that OATS - especially as they use it as a selling point - should help ALL qualified students to find a job. Not just the ones that they can easily pass on.
My other point/question is that of Ryainair. Now I know for a fact that not all of the 6 that were taken, paid Ryainair the req. £50 with relation to an Application. So whats going on with respect to that area???
Firstly lets sort out a bit of the incorrect statement(s) put on here.
Oxford Blue: Just a small point but you stated: that Ryanair asked: "Please could you recomend six likely lads straight from the top of the next self-sponsored course to graduate?"
However this is not the complete truth. Out of the 6 students that have now been selected by Ryainair from OATS, 5 are old students. 2 of which had been offered jobs by BE but as BE could not give them a definate date to start OATS put them fwd to Ryanair. Now those 2 guys finished in March of last year.
3 of the students are from courses which finished towards the end of last year and as for the last one his name didn't ring a bell with me but I was informed that he finished earlier this year.
Now to clarify I know these points to be true as I know 4/6 guys who were taken on personally and it came straight from them. Obviously its good to know that things may be looking to turn around and Congrats to the guys that got in.
Oh one other thing for Visual: All the guys who have been taken on were all self sponsored. I do however agree with the fact that OATS - especially as they use it as a selling point - should help ALL qualified students to find a job. Not just the ones that they can easily pass on.
My other point/question is that of Ryainair. Now I know for a fact that not all of the 6 that were taken, paid Ryainair the req. £50 with relation to an Application. So whats going on with respect to that area???
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its perfectly obvious that 6 were self sponsored BA or whoever are hardly going to let there cadets or graduates go flying for another airline are they
Lets also ask which of those 6 also needed to pay £15k for their type rating??
So lets just work this out:
45k x 6% flat (11-12%APRish) over say 6 years to repay
Total repayable is £61200
Plus Type Rating (On another thread) £15000
Equals £76200
Oops sorry forgot the £50.00 assessment fee
£76250
This is just mental.
Its interesting & encouraging to see that OATS recommended some past students not just the latest ones to settle the account however the fact is they are on a slippery slope. If somebody has just committed 75 large to a school (admittedly over time) then dont they all deserve a recommend.
Just to reiterate my original point, these very few positions offered are incredibly hyped. I had a PPL who had just completed his ATPL's @ Oxford and wouldn't even entertain not doing the flying at Oxford because "The airlines like the uniform thing at oxford" and other incredulous reasons.
Less hype - more fact.
www thanks for quantifying it - 2% you get better odds playing russian roulette
Lets also ask which of those 6 also needed to pay £15k for their type rating??
So lets just work this out:
45k x 6% flat (11-12%APRish) over say 6 years to repay
Total repayable is £61200
Plus Type Rating (On another thread) £15000
Equals £76200
Oops sorry forgot the £50.00 assessment fee
£76250
This is just mental.
Its interesting & encouraging to see that OATS recommended some past students not just the latest ones to settle the account however the fact is they are on a slippery slope. If somebody has just committed 75 large to a school (admittedly over time) then dont they all deserve a recommend.
Just to reiterate my original point, these very few positions offered are incredibly hyped. I had a PPL who had just completed his ATPL's @ Oxford and wouldn't even entertain not doing the flying at Oxford because "The airlines like the uniform thing at oxford" and other incredulous reasons.
Less hype - more fact.
www thanks for quantifying it - 2% you get better odds playing russian roulette
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Visual, I've always made it clear on pprune that I'm an instructor at Oxford and that I'm just rank-and-file, and that I don't represent management. There are no secrets there; I even chose a pen-name that would make it obvious that I'm from Oxford.
The only reason that I don't use my real name, as Alex Whittingham does for Bristol, is because the Oxford management has asked me not to, because I don't represent management policy. I am a private individual with my own opinions which do not always accord with the management view. Nevertheless, if I say something, it's probably true, or at least, as far as I know, it is. (I am not privy to the boardroom secrets).
Of course I bear allegiance to my self-sponsored students!! What a ridiculous thing to say. I teach these people, for Christ's sake, and I am independent enough to speak as I find. I make all judgements on a case-by-case basis and it is simply ludicrous to suggest that "I like this bloke because he is BA, but I don't like this bloke because he is self-sponsored!" Human nature just doesn't work like that! You like people because they are nice and you think that they deserve to succeed! End of story!
As for pecking order, or choosing the most deserving people from the past courses for the Ryanair places, I think that, at the time, Oxford was just pleased that we could place some people who we thought were worth it. If we had gone through a long grading exercise like an RAF promotion board, Ryanair would have lost patience and we would have missed the boat! You have to seize the moment. However, Oxford does recognise that, in future, there ought to be a fairer way of doing it, which is one of the reasons why they have set up this post of Career Development Officer.
Magcheck, you may know more detail than I do. I only tell the story from the bits that I know and, as I said, I am not management and I may not have all the detail completely correct - which is why I suggested that Batty might wish to fill us in on all the details if he happens to be surfing this site over the next couple of days. However, he is probably down route and may not see it. Nevertheless, the broad thrust is correct and it was a fair answer to Russell's original query.
The only reason that I don't use my real name, as Alex Whittingham does for Bristol, is because the Oxford management has asked me not to, because I don't represent management policy. I am a private individual with my own opinions which do not always accord with the management view. Nevertheless, if I say something, it's probably true, or at least, as far as I know, it is. (I am not privy to the boardroom secrets).
Of course I bear allegiance to my self-sponsored students!! What a ridiculous thing to say. I teach these people, for Christ's sake, and I am independent enough to speak as I find. I make all judgements on a case-by-case basis and it is simply ludicrous to suggest that "I like this bloke because he is BA, but I don't like this bloke because he is self-sponsored!" Human nature just doesn't work like that! You like people because they are nice and you think that they deserve to succeed! End of story!
As for pecking order, or choosing the most deserving people from the past courses for the Ryanair places, I think that, at the time, Oxford was just pleased that we could place some people who we thought were worth it. If we had gone through a long grading exercise like an RAF promotion board, Ryanair would have lost patience and we would have missed the boat! You have to seize the moment. However, Oxford does recognise that, in future, there ought to be a fairer way of doing it, which is one of the reasons why they have set up this post of Career Development Officer.
Magcheck, you may know more detail than I do. I only tell the story from the bits that I know and, as I said, I am not management and I may not have all the detail completely correct - which is why I suggested that Batty might wish to fill us in on all the details if he happens to be surfing this site over the next couple of days. However, he is probably down route and may not see it. Nevertheless, the broad thrust is correct and it was a fair answer to Russell's original query.
Last edited by oxford blue; 20th May 2002 at 20:46.
Oxford Blue - I see no problem with your position. I welcome your input to these pages.
WWW
WWW
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I agree with WWW - can't see what Visual's problem is with OB's post.
Thanks for the replies, OB and MagCheck - it sounds like OATS have handled the request in the most appropriate manner, given the circumstances.
I'm still not convinced that this method of recruiting is "right" - I don't believe it gives all candidates a fair choice (but then why should RyanAir care about that), and I also don't believe that RyanAir will get the best candidate. (As someone who has been responsible for recruiting - albeit in a different industry - I always wanted to see as many CVs as possible, and would often surprise agencies by bringing in candidates they thought didn't have the right skills, because of one particular piece of experience which I was impressed with.) But I can see why RyanAir have chosen to use this method, and I appreciate the comments that it accounts for a very small percentage of recruits.
FFF
-----------
Thanks for the replies, OB and MagCheck - it sounds like OATS have handled the request in the most appropriate manner, given the circumstances.
I'm still not convinced that this method of recruiting is "right" - I don't believe it gives all candidates a fair choice (but then why should RyanAir care about that), and I also don't believe that RyanAir will get the best candidate. (As someone who has been responsible for recruiting - albeit in a different industry - I always wanted to see as many CVs as possible, and would often surprise agencies by bringing in candidates they thought didn't have the right skills, because of one particular piece of experience which I was impressed with.) But I can see why RyanAir have chosen to use this method, and I appreciate the comments that it accounts for a very small percentage of recruits.
FFF
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Oxford Blue,
I am ex OATS student 1999:2000, if the gentleman you refer to is who i think it is.......
He was quite possibly the most arrogant, ill fitting twit i have had the misfortune of meeting. He had a supercilious, better than you mentality.
If he sets foot anywhere near my place of work, the alarm bells will ring.
As for the scheme, well if anyone is desperate enough to accept the terms on offer, well.....
I am ex OATS student 1999:2000, if the gentleman you refer to is who i think it is.......
He was quite possibly the most arrogant, ill fitting twit i have had the misfortune of meeting. He had a supercilious, better than you mentality.
If he sets foot anywhere near my place of work, the alarm bells will ring.
As for the scheme, well if anyone is desperate enough to accept the terms on offer, well.....
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Well from the horses mouth...
First of all Mag Check
When I was recruited by Ryanair it was as OBlue stated ie they were after 6 students and I was lucky enough to be one of them. I believe you are talking about the latest batch of recruits since they are recruiting at the moment.
GSpot
Firstly-Yes there is probably a farer way of recruiting there is also a farer way to share out the lottery money but decisions have to be made. Ryanair needed people there and then not in 2 months.I was nothing to do with BA and I worked bloody hard to get through the course and achieved good results all the way through so who is to say that I didnt deserve the recommendation.
Secondly- I didnt pay £75 K to OATS more in the regon of £50 K still lots of money I agree!
Thirdly- I didnt pay for my type rating I am bonded for three years for a total of £12k. The terms the company are now employing are vastly different post Sept 11.
Finaly why give OATS and OB a hard time? If the positions are offered they have to act. These positions are few and far between but do occur occasionaly as they are again at the moment.
PS OB good to see your still about and thanks for your help. Things are looking good now I am back at STN with another little one on the way.
First of all Mag Check
When I was recruited by Ryanair it was as OBlue stated ie they were after 6 students and I was lucky enough to be one of them. I believe you are talking about the latest batch of recruits since they are recruiting at the moment.
GSpot
Firstly-Yes there is probably a farer way of recruiting there is also a farer way to share out the lottery money but decisions have to be made. Ryanair needed people there and then not in 2 months.I was nothing to do with BA and I worked bloody hard to get through the course and achieved good results all the way through so who is to say that I didnt deserve the recommendation.
Secondly- I didnt pay £75 K to OATS more in the regon of £50 K still lots of money I agree!
Thirdly- I didnt pay for my type rating I am bonded for three years for a total of £12k. The terms the company are now employing are vastly different post Sept 11.
Finaly why give OATS and OB a hard time? If the positions are offered they have to act. These positions are few and far between but do occur occasionaly as they are again at the moment.
PS OB good to see your still about and thanks for your help. Things are looking good now I am back at STN with another little one on the way.
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Batty
Well done for the jet job, it would seem you are one of the lucky ones with 50k to pay up front there are an increasing number of people who are borrowing the whole amount and repaying over time.
This invariably involves the parents of these people either remortgaging their houses or acting as guarantor for their siblings debts.
People are borrowing massive amounts of money as you quite rightly agree and giving it to OATS because they think they have a better chance of a Job by using that school.
If this thread does nothing else it might just make certain people think twice about borrowing 50k then giving it to OATS. Especially if your parents are paying and or underwriting your loan.
At last the chances of this happening have been quantified and I welcome that.
Anybody self sponsoring best of luck, just consider it very carefully.
Well done for the jet job, it would seem you are one of the lucky ones with 50k to pay up front there are an increasing number of people who are borrowing the whole amount and repaying over time.
This invariably involves the parents of these people either remortgaging their houses or acting as guarantor for their siblings debts.
People are borrowing massive amounts of money as you quite rightly agree and giving it to OATS because they think they have a better chance of a Job by using that school.
If this thread does nothing else it might just make certain people think twice about borrowing 50k then giving it to OATS. Especially if your parents are paying and or underwriting your loan.
At last the chances of this happening have been quantified and I welcome that.
Anybody self sponsoring best of luck, just consider it very carefully.
